Stuck on the witness

[Jutylda]

Hello, Tyler

I can't NOT find the witness.
I find the witnessing anywhere I look. There's no looking without the witnessing, there's no finding without the witnessing.

Yet you're here doubting it. You have no doubt that you see red because obviously you see red, yet you think you can stop seeing the witness. This tells me that the witness at least feels less real and solid to you than your 5 senses, which is a good place for us to poke at.

If you understood it like that, then I didn't make myself clear. It's not like that.

When I see red, I have no doubt, that I see red.
When I see witness, I have no doubt, that I see witness.
If I saw dogs' faces everywhere, I would have no doubt, that I see dogs' faces everywhere.
I think that I can stop seeing red, if the cause of seeing red stops.
I think that I can stop seeing witness, if the cause of seeing witness stops.
I think, that I could stop seeing dogs' faces everywhere, If the cause of seeing dogs' faces stopped.

The cause of seeing this or that can be a strong belief. But it can also be one of the many other possible causes: dreaming, synesthesia, use of psychedelics, neurological damage, or some aliens from Andromeda Galaxy implanting a chip in my brain. We can't know, what the cause of a given image is, we can only infer it, to some degree.
Still, whatever the cause, when I see it, there is no doubt that I see it.

Oh, not that I think about your question:
"Don't you see that the belief in the witness appearing IS the sense of the witness itself?"
I know what seems wrong to me - it seems like confusing the cause (well, probable cause) with the effect.
I would say:
The belief in the witness appearing CAN CAUSE the sense of the witness.

I would like to make sure, that this point is clear, before we go to the next one.
If further explanations or examples are needed, I have pages of notes ready.

Love
Jutka

[ty0]

Hi Jutka

When I see red, I have no doubt, that I see red.
When I see witness, I have no doubt, that I see witness.
If I saw dogs' faces everywhere, I would have no doubt, that I see dogs' faces everywhere.
I think that I can stop seeing red, if the cause of seeing red stops.
I think that I can stop seeing witness, if the cause of seeing witness stops.
I think, that I could stop seeing dogs' faces everywhere, If the cause of seeing dogs' faces stopped.

Ok, this is very clear. I get it now. I meant that you're here on this forum asking for help to stop seeing the witness. You've even titled your thread "Stuck on the witness" as if you know that it's something you can stop seeing.

You can't stop seeing red unless we remove your eyeballs, but the witness feels different, no?
Does the witness feel more like it's built on thought and belief than sight and sound are?

Oh, not that I think about your question:
"Don't you see that the belief in the witness appearing IS the sense of the witness itself?"
I know what seems wrong to me - it seems like confusing the cause (well, probable cause) with the effect.
I would say:
The belief in the witness appearing CAN CAUSE the sense of the witness.

Ah yes, maybe the cause and effect are separate. Or maybe they're one and the same? Whatever understanding quenches your curiosity is fine :)

Anyway, I'd like you to zoom in on the DE of the witness for now. Try the exercises/inquiries in my previous response to you. Separate the DE and the interpretation of the witness etc. See if you can really experience the DE without it feeling like "the witness". See if it's even possible for it to exist as DE without being interpreted as "witnessing".
If so, describe what you see. You can describe how a tree looks to you and I can have a mental image of it. But the witness feels a bit different, no? What are the characteristics of the DE (if it even exists) before you slap the label "witness" on it? Or is the label all there is? Explore this and have fun :)

Enjoy,
Tyler

[Jutylda]

Hello, Tyler

After-the-meeting thougts:
Strange thing with this whole joke - it's funny, but at the same time it's sad.
Maybe the sad part is how we crave for something true to hold on to.
"Look, a Direct Experience! Let's hold onto that! There is no distance / witness / self, because my Direct Experience says so!"
There is something so desperate about it.

Even before the meeting, when I was trying to look into the witness, there was sadness coming up, and I couldn't figure out what is it about.

Love
Jutka

[ty0]

Hahaha yes. It can be sad if it seems to matter.
But does it matter? Should our efforts reward us with the prize of certainty?
Is it so sad that all people do is try and try and try and there's nothing solid to achieve?
Outside spirituality, people desperately try to accumulate wealth and admiration and relationships. People try to do great things to leave a legacy because they don't want to be forgotten. They fear non-existence. This is even baked into some cultures.
"The Aztecs used to believe that we had two deaths: one when our bodies stop moving, and the other when the people in our lives forgot about us. In Mexico, we celebrate the Day of the Dead – Dia de Muertos – at the start of each November to avoid that second death."

Why should our actions mean anything? Why should there be meaning and purpose? Why should we exist?
It's so funny. It's all so funny.

[Jutylda]

Is it so sad that all people do is try and try and try and there's nothing solid to achieve?

It is sad for me, at least for now. It's sad that we are conditioned to try and try and try. A lot of suffering for nothing.
Sometimes it feels like a joke, sometimes it feels like a sick joke, and sometimes it feels just sick.
Pick and choose your own perspective.
Just kidding, you don't get to choose.

Why should we exist?

My thoughts say we shouldn't, and all of this existing / appearing is one big error.
I haven't chosen this perspective, I'm just conditioned to think this way.

Love
Jutka

[ty0]

My thoughts say we shouldn't, and all of this existing / appearing is one big error.
I haven't chosen this perspective, I'm just conditioned to think this way.

Then what stops you from killing yourself? It seems like you're running in circles for nothing.

What are you even looking for? Can you have the direct experience of the witness? Do you think that if you see through the witness, all your suffering will magically disappear? What even causes your suffering?

[Jutylda]

Then what stops you from killing yourself?

1. There's no telling, if I won't exist after the death of the body.
2. It would cause much suffering to others.
3. I'm not afraid of non-existence, but I am afraid of dying. The body doesn't care about my thoughts and will fight to stay alive.

It seems like you're running in circles for nothing ... What even causes your suffering?

Agreed. I would guess, that exactly this running in circles is the cause of my suffering.
I'm tired of this, but I can't stop.
Just as I've written it, the body started shaking. I take it as a confirmation: the body is tired.
As for the cause of it, there are only guesses.

Can you have the direct experience of the witness?

When focusing on a sound, I do not merge with the sound. The sound is there, and I, the witnessing, am here.
Same with other senses, thoughts, emotions, volitions, actions and reactions.
I don't know what more to say without adding an interpretation.

I can describe some feelings it evokes. They are not the DE itself - I think - but maybe they can help with the description:
- a point of reference, like (0,0) in a cooridinate system
- nice heaviness giving stability, a center of gravity
- a hole; I may imagine it as a center of a whirlpool
- with both heaviness and a hole, I may imagine it as a black hole
- a metaphore: a child in a maze of mirrors, confused with all the reflections. it squats down and covers its eyes. Only then it can calm down: "This is the real me, the one I feel when I don't see all the confusing reflections".

Do you think that if you see through the witness, all your suffering will magically disappear?

Seeing through the doer diminished the suffering greatly, and there was nothing magical about it.
So it seems worth trying to see through the witness, too.

Love
Jutka

[ty0]

When focusing on a sound, I do not merge with the sound. The sound is there, and I, the witnessing, am here

I don't want you to focus on a sound or any sense field. I want you to focus ONLY on the witness. Try that.

[ty0]

What is the witness like when there is only the DE of the witness? If possible, do this after some meditation and quieting the mind. Can you see the witness ALONE as clearly and effortlessly as you can see your hand without any thought?

If you can observe the witness, who is the one observing the witness? Is it another witness? Who's aware of the existence of the witness?

[Jutylda]

What is the witness like when there is only the DE of the witness?

Here. I mean, HERE. So much here, that there can't be any more herer.

If possible, do this after some meditation and quieting the mind.

The sense is the strongest in a good shamatha meditation.
It was surprising for me, I've though before, that meditation should work the other way around, and that there will be less and less of the "I". At least it seemed to work like that with the doer.

Can you see the witness ALONE as clearly and effortlessly as you can see your hand without any thought?

Not in everyday experience, when there are a lots of "theres". Then it's not so clear, although still there. Like in this metaphore of a child in the mirror maze: after recognizing the sense of its own body once, the child can still get confused by the reflection sometimes, but because the sense of the body was recognized once, it will be easier for the child to recognize it again, even with the reflections around.
Also, if you would ask this child "Can you see this 'real me' as clearly and effortlessly, as you can see the reflections?", the child would answer: "No, I don't see this 'real me' at all, my eyes were closed, when I first experienced it. But I could feel it, and it feels more real than any reflection".

If you can observe the witness, who is the one observing the witness? Is it another witness? Who's aware of the existence of the witness?

Ajahn Brahm said once, that vinnana (awareness) can't see itself, but only the other vinnana from the smallest moment ago. It gives us an illusion of continuity, as if it was always the same vinnana. Maybe it's like that, or maybe it's another one of Ajahn Brahm's jokes. Certainly it's an interpretation.
I've tried different hypotheses, like "Awareness is just another sense", or "The witness sees its own reflection, with the mind acting as a mirror" and so on. But when I go back from thinking to just feeling, then, bam, the witnessing is here (here is here?), and all the hypotheses whirl around it like soap bubbles, with no substance at all.

All of your questions and all of my answers are exactly like that.

Love
Jutka

[ty0]

Ajahn Brahm said once, that vinnana (awareness) can't see itself, but only the other vinnana from the smallest moment ago.

I don't know who this is, but isn't he saying that only the memory of vinnana can be observed? Which means you can't directly observe the witness, you can only think about the interpretation of awareness as a memory? Anyway, his words, not mine hahahha

Ok, so stay with the sense of the witness. Stay with it more and more, it'll get stronger and stronger. Is there anything wrong with the sense of the witness? Why are you trying to see through it? It's your only "real" thing in a maze of mirrors, doesn't sound wise to get rid of it hahahah

But really, what are you trying to do here? What's the problem here? What's wrong with the witness? Why not let it be? If you want to stop seeking, can't you do that by accepting the witness and letting it be? You could even build a huge spiritual business empire around "awareness" and "consciousness" like many others (who I will not name) have done 😂😂.

Frankly, I don't see an issue. Do you?

[Jutylda]

When I was looking into the fear, a memory came up: in times of kindergarden I've read the Greek mythology, and among that the myth of Heracles and the robe gifted to him by Deianira. The robe was soaked in venomous blood of a centaur. When Heracles put it on, the robe stuck to his skin like napalm, and the venom sank into his flesh, causing excruciating pain. In torment, Heracles was tearing away big chunks of his own flesh.
I imagine it as a purely bodily reaction, body going into shock and rejecting itself.

In depression, it happened in the psyche. I've described it to Vince before:

V.: So, what does rejecting the unacceptable and unpardonable leave you with?
J.: It had left me self-hating, desintegrated, incoherent, nonfunctional and batshit scared.
It reminds me of a story. A man woke up in a hospital bed, and found out that someone, presumably young residents, pulled a stupid prank on him - they've taken a dead man's leg from the morgue and put it in this man's bed. The man was outraged, and pushed the dead leg out of his bed. At once he fell down from the bed - because it was his own leg, still connected to his body as usual. He had a neurological disorder, not recognizing his own leg as his own.
In drastic cases such people go for voluntary amputations. It's possible when it comes to limbs, but what if you felt your belly was not your own? If it felt like an abomination, attached to your body by some Cthulhu monster? What does rejecting your belly leave you with?
V.: I guess it's wanting to die.
J.: What if it's the belly saying "I want to die, I need to die", and the rest of the body goes: "It's unacceptable, unpardonable, that's an abomination!"?
It felt like a living hell.

V.: Does it feel like you are captive?
J.: Something like that. Imprisonment. No escape. Tentacles growing out of my own body.
V.: I have no idea how to respond to this, just to say how horrible it sounds..
J.: Funny enough, this is the phrase I often hear from the awakened, you included: "There's no escape from THIS".

We talk here about rejection, acceptance, finding the gap etc.
I fear the most these states, when there is rejection of myself and no gap, no possibility of finding the gap, because the body or the psyche go into shock.
It makes sense, that I can't merge with a sound or a sight, because the fear won't allow me to lose the gap. It makes me keep everything at arm's length, even the fear itself. I'm terrified of merging with this fear.

When the fear is at arm's length, it's not so scary. It's understandable, it's there to protect me, it can be quite useful, it keeps me away from any circumstances that can result in "napalm on my flesh".
Still, in the long run it's tiring for the body. I'm so tired of it. And shaking.

love
Jutka

[ty0]

Hi Jutka

That does sound terrible. You surely know that the only way I know to point you is towards that fear. Even if you feel like going towards it will lead to horrible outcomes.

However, I'm not encouraging you to do this just because I say so. You're kind of stuck and have to choose between dealing with this fear for the rest of your life or accepting whatever comes when you merge with the fear. Have you sought help from a more specialised mental health professional like a hypnotherapist? I'm afraid that I only know how to point you forward, and you may not be ready yet.

I had an interesting thought that "the witness" could be helping you feel separate from experience, so that you can always keep experience at an arm's length. Like a manifestation of your fear trying to protect you. In any case, I don't think inquiry will help you "progress" much further before you deal with this fear of yours.

[Jutylda]

That does sound terrible.

I may have hyperbolized it a bit to make it clear. But again, from the fear perspective it is seen in this hyperbolized way, and in deep fear it seems absolutely true.

You surely know that the only way I know to point you is towards that fear.

I know for myself that this is the only way. I had to go through a major depression for the doer to drop, I know it wouldn't have happened otherwise. It helped, that I had the attitude: "I don't want to just fix it and go back to my life as it was before, I want to go through this to the bottom, to the other side". And I went as far as I could.

You're kind of stuck and have to choose between dealing with this fear for the rest of your life or accepting whatever comes when you merge with the fear.

Do I have this choice? (A question for myself).
A fear can paralyze the body and the mind.
A memory came up: when I was in the hospital, I gave myself a cigarette burn on my arm. At first the hand holding the cigarette was jumping back on its own, even before the burning end touched the skin. But after many tries I've managed to do it.
I don't know why I did it. From today's perspective it seems like an exercise in overcoming a fear, that was controlling the body. A way to show myself, that it is possible, to gain some confidence. It felt right at that time, and I have no regrets about it. It wasn't to harm myself, I made sure to disinfect the area, I kept it clean and safe, it healed very well.
So: I want to go through the fear, but I don't want to harm myself in the process.
I think that going through the depression to the bottom was possible, because I felt I was in a safe environment, I saw the medical stuff capable of dealing with "whatever comes" and keeping the patients relatively unharmed. "Don't try this at home, kids, it's a dumb way to die!".

Have you sought help from a more specialised mental health professional like a hypnotherapist?

I have a psychiatrist, I had a psychotherapist - normal stuff, nothing extravagant.
Doesn't seem to go anywhere, but keeps me stable.

In any case, I don't think inquiry will help you "progress" much further before you deal with this fear of yours.

I've received my diagnosis, so it's a nice end :)
Thank you so much.

Love
Jutka

[ty0]

I hope you manage to get through this fear. As Vince suggested, you can bring it up a little bit at a time, increasing how much you let in over time. This is definitely more of his field of expertise than mine, sometimes what he does in the meetings feels very much like therapy hahahah. I'm definitely more of a nuclear-approach kind of guy when it comes to emotions.

So: I want to go through the fear, but I don't want to harm myself in the process.
I think that going through the depression to the bottom was possible, because I felt I was in a safe environment

Do you see that the paralysis here is coming from the fear of harming yourself? How can you get through the fear if you can't accept harming yourself? You want a nice, safe, stable environment to take on your fear. But all that environment will do is reduce your fear to a manageable amount so that you feel like you can handle it. Then, you can feel like you worked through all your fear, but you really only would have worked through a fraction of it.

To me, it sounds like: "I want to go through the fear, but I'm too scared." "There must be less fear so that I can face my fear." Do you see the paradox here? The amount of fear right now is the amount you have to go through, any less would be less. This includes the fear of harming yourself in the process of working through the fear.

There was a point in my "journey" when I had to completely accept the possibility that I would lose my mind and go insane. I had to get over the fear of becoming psychotic and harming myself and others. How did I get over this fear? It was not by rationally thinking and concluding that my fears were unfounded, it was by fully accepting the terrible consequences that I felt were possible. In hindsight, there was nothing to be afraid of. But at the time, the fear was so real and intense and the only way out was through. I had to be truly okay with going insane and causing immense harm to myself and others.

Can you be okay with what you're scared of? Can you go towards your fear? If you feel you're ready, just let it all in. If not, take a gentler approach like Vince suggested. Or you could even just leave the fear there forever. There's no right or wrong here.