The Gate

Hi Jon,

How do you find mind? What does it look like? If it cannot be sensed how is it found?

Or is it that you think that mind must exist therefore it is found?

Everything that is not sensation is mind. Basically thoughts.
Thought are real, it is their content that is not real.

Regards,
Mic

Yes. Thoughts really turn up. But what they are about is never happening in the moment, as,,for example, breathing, seeing, hearing, are happening.

Is 'I' really happening in this way?

What is 'I'?


Jon

Hi Jon,

Thoughts really turn up. But what they are about is never happening in the moment

I know. This however is were 'I' am stuck. Thought content if not real, but the 'I' that is not real gets pulled into the content.
'I' is not really happening, it is an idea, therefore it is not real.

Regards,
Mic

Hi Mic,

This however is were 'I' am stuck.

How do you mean?

Thought content if not real, but the 'I' that is not real gets pulled into the content.
'I' is not really happening, it is an idea, therefore it is not real.

Do you mean that it seems as though there is a self? Because there is still an illusion of one that appears in thought?

Jon

Hi Jon,

Do you mean that it seems as though there is a self? Because there is still an illusion of one that appears in thought?

Yes that is right, while simultaneously I know the following:

'I' is not really happening, it is an idea, therefore it is not real.

I don't mean to confuse things Jon, but I am experiencing a lot of contradictions. These contradictions where fueled all the more when last night I read most of my past entries. I fluctuate between sometimes having insight, clarity and motivation in seeing the illusion of self. Other times cognitively thinking 'I' is an illusion but still feeling a strong sense of 'self', accompanied with very active thoughts that suggest "I'll never get it...", "I'm wasting my time and Jon's time..." etc... (I have not shared all these inner fluctuations as there was more important things to write about.)
On reading entries last night I can see that there is change, yet since I returned from Africa it is harder to deal with the troughs in these cycles. I am conflicted in my thoughts and feelings but it is clear to me that I am actually running out of steam. On balance I am now inclined to take a break from the UL process; yet I hope that I will reconvene it with a renewed level of freshness.
I don't want to let you down, and I hope that you are not likely to feel let down, but you have been very generous in sharing your time and energy and you have been VERY patient with me. For all of this I am most grateful. I can genuinely say that life has never been better than it is now - still with it's challenges, yet never better so I am VERY grateful.
The story I hear me telling myself is that this is not finished and I may be back to UL as soon as next month. But it seems right to take it in a different direction for a while - or to at lease take a break.

If you have any thoughts please feel free to share them.

With love and gratitude,
Mic

Hi Mic,

Other times cognitively thinking 'I' is an illusion but still feeling a strong sense of 'self', accompanied with very active thoughts that suggest "I'll never get it...", "I'm wasting my time and Jon's time..." etc... (I have not shared all these inner fluctuations as there was more important things to write about.)

Not really Mic. Where there are such thoughts and feelings it can be very fertile indeed to look directly at them, since it can seem as though this is where 'I' hangs out and appears to be dug in. It can seem as though there is a thing or entity that sits at the center of such thoughts? We may know intellectually that this is supposed to be deluded thinking and therefore imagine that there are more important things to write about.

But there aren't. It is this very strength of feeling of self and the thoughts that accompany it (that you have described) that expose the apparent self. It is a little like switching the lights on at the moment that we are convinced that Santa is emerging from the fireplace with a sack of presents. This is the way to see that actually it isn't a 'thing' that is 'there' at all.

But I understand that we have been talking for a long time and sometimes it is a good idea to take a break. Don't worry about me. I think that this is a good idea too :-) Lets stop for a while. Just get back in touch whenever you like Mic and we can take it from there? You may find that if the inquiry isn't at the front of your mind so much it will be helpful.


very best wishes,

Jon

Hi Jon

But I understand that we have been talking for a long time and sometimes it is a good idea to take a break. Don't worry about me. I think that this is a good idea too :-) Lets stop for a while. Just get back in touch whenever you like Mic and we can take it from there? You may find that if the inquiry isn't at the front of your mind so much it will be helpful.

Thank you very much Jon.

With love
Mic

Hi Jon
I hope life has been good for you since last we communicated about six or seven months ago.
Since I have taken a break from our inquiry dialogue I have continued my searching and feel the time is right for 'me' to pick it up again; if you are still open to it. I have completed a meditation program and have been doing some level of inquiry myself. I feel that I either have made the realization that there is no I, or am close to that point of realization.
Are you open to me attempting to complete this leg of the journey with you at this time? If not, then that is no problem, I am happy to go back on the waiting list.
Either way much thanks,
Mic

Mic!

How lovely! I'm fine thanks. And you?

you caught me at a lucky moment. i'm happy to continue with our conversation.

Tell me what you have been looking at or what you would like to investigate?

best wishes,

Jon

I am good Jon - my general baseline is about 7 or 8 out of 10 so am quite content with that.
Thanks for agreeing to reconvene inquiry with me.

Tell me what you have been looking at or what you would like to investigate?

Been doing lot of meditation and exploring different path's up the mountain and continue to find myself most drawn to the non-duality path. Have been experiencing some success with Douglas Hardling's HEADLESS method, and with Dyadic Inquiry (although limited opportunity for Dyadic).
Had some peak experiences regarding the nature of "I", these peak experiences do not become consistent but they have played very important role is dissolving the power of the narrative self.
In terms of where I am at now, well I osculate in and out of 'self'. Even when self is to the for-ground then with a reflective glimpse it is clear to me that it is not real, it is just an object among perceptual objects. The 'self' is not gone, it is just understood to be not real (I sense there is still more work to be done in this area). Other times - with reflection - there is no 'self'.

I want to continue this journey - when I had my moment of greatest insight, it was overwhelmingly self evident that all my developmental work was to get me to the start of the journey; this is not an end, it is merely the start. I would welcome your interrogation to see if my experience is substantial and where it is falling short; most importantly I would welcome any inquiry you can offer to further my journey.

So this is where I am at Jon and again thank you for keeping the window open for me.
Much love
Mike

Hi Mike,

Even when self is to the for-ground then with a reflective glimpse it is clear to me that it is not real, it is just an object among perceptual objects.The 'self' is not gone, it is just understood to be not real (I sense there is still more work to be done in this area).

How could a 'self' be 'gone'? We don't aim to get rid of anything. Was one ever 'there', except for references to a 'self' and sometimes sensations that appear to point to a self?

Is 'foreground' a thought?

is anything 'in it'?

when I had my moment of greatest insight, it was overwhelmingly self evident that all my developmental work was to get me to the start of the journey; this is not an end, it is merely the start.

Well that is a great place to be.

All best

Jon

This is perfect Jon, think this is just what is needed.

How could a 'self' be 'gone'? We don't aim to get rid of anything. Was one ever 'there', except for references to a 'self' and sometimes sensations that appear to point to a self?

Idea or belief about 'self', feeling that points to self, feeling with associated meaning of self. However I get you point and also language is inportant. There is no self to go, there are ideas about self, and to FULLY REALISE that these are just ideas. This is a different way of framing it and and very helpful. (by framing it I mean thinking about it).

Is 'foreground' a thought? is anything 'in it'?

Yes, forground is though, thoughts that are dominant. I might say they are privilaged, but of course that asks the question who is the one to privilage them....no one! I might say thoughts that are powerful, strong, but of course how can a thougt actually have power - outside of its own domain of being a thought.
Nothing is 'in it', it is not a place, it is a conceptual entity that has no substance outside the mind. Again useful in how I approach this inqury.

Love and gratitude,
Mic

Hi Mic

Glad this is helpful.

. There is no self to go, there are ideas about self, and to FULLY REALISE that these are just ideas

FULLY REALISE? Why the capital letters?

Listen. This FULL REALISATION has ti go. You know the old saying 'If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!'?

Here at The Gate we simply point to no self, so that it starts to be seen that there is no self and never was. Its not an 'experience of NO SELF' . Its not necessarily any kind of peak experience. It could be quiet, dare I say it, 'normal', like nothing has changed, nothing special or spiritual.

What do you think of this?

Regards

Jon

Again very helpful Jon.

FULLY REALISE? Why the capital letters?

This question provokes reflection. In the past everything was filtered through the self, there was not even an idea that there was not a self. Now there are times when there is a self (either through sensations, thoughts or the body) - sometimes it is very busy. If I inquire it often becomes clear that this sense of self is not real even though there is felt/thought; or other times with inquiry the sense of self is not felt or thought (I might say I cannot find it). Maybe the idea of a continuum is useful here. The more that 'no self' is understood then sense perception is experienced in an increasingly unfiltered way - this unfiltered perception does not feel silent, or spiritual, mystic, or even pleasant per say (this is fine with me).

Listen. This FULL REALISATION has ti go

I am looking for something while holding a false expectations??? I guess I am looking with the idea that there would be less ossalating. Of course this brings up the question of who is the one ossalating? To ancwer my own question, the nature of thought and perceptions is constantly changing, and this inculdes the belief that there is a self.

Here at The Gate we simply point to no self, so that it starts to be seen that there is no self and never was.

Ok, I think I got this "....seen that there is no self and never was...." or I got is some of the time. Jon, do I have it sufficiently to say that I have seen as much as The Gate aimes to help me see? Or, is there something else I am missing?

Its not an 'experience of NO SELF' .

"Experience of no self", versus "seen that there is no self and never was"; I need to let this one percolate some more Jon. I do experience the world differently when I see there is no self but am I looking for the different experience, or am I looking to what I can see? I would have been convinced it was the latter, but maybe.....I will continue to refelct.

My question Jon, is it unreasonable expectation to seek for the ossalations (seeing, partly seeing, not seeing) to subside? Am I missing something? Certainly the narrative self is useful for getting certain things done, althoug my beliefe in it varies.

Have a good weekend, Thanks and Regards,
Mike

Hi Mic,

Apologies for delay in replying. Please forgive me if I cut to the chase and don't reply at length.

I am looking for something while holding a false expectations??? I guess I am looking with the idea that there would be less ossalating.

stop doing that. Look without preconceptions about how it should be experienced.

Ok, I think I got this "....seen that there is no self and never was...." or I got is some of the time. Jon, do I have it sufficiently to say that I have seen as much as The Gate aimes to help me see? Or, is there something else I am missing?

You will answer this question yourself. At some stage it becomes clear enough to say that there isn't a shadow of doubt that self is an illusion and not a real entity somewhere.

I do experience the world differently when I see there is no self but am I looking for the different experience, or am I looking to what I can see?

You have to answer this.

is it unreasonable expectation to seek for the ossalations (seeing, partly seeing, not seeing) to subside?

I'd say, don't expect to address these oscillations through an inquiry into 'self'. It may be possible to look at these oscillations as they appear and disappear and to become clearer that these do not impact on the reality of no self. It's certainly possible to continue to look and investigate such things further but what we aim to get clear at The Gate is seeing that 'self' is not a real entity, separate from experience, possibly living in the body, possibly as awareness or in some other disguise which maintains a notion of separate 'me-hood'.

best,

jon