I would like a guide please.

[dian]

Hi Sandra,

hmmmm, what do you see an "I" controlling? For one day take a notepad and a pen with you and make a list. I want to know what you think is being controlled by an I. Really curious in fact, looking forward to reading the list. And if you don't write the list I'm gonna think there is no you there who can control what is done, so make sure to convince me that you are controlling something!

I'll do my best to convince you
So an "I" woke up this morning and it didn't seem to be the "I"s decision. The thought to get out of bed came from I don't know where. One after the other thoughts of what had to be done this morning came and sometimes the action was just there with no thought at all that was noticed. Trying to make a decision but an I doesn't seem to be in control of that either. So far not going so good with the I controlling anything. Will keep looking at this today.

dian wrote:I guess my expectations would be to see that life is living without input from me.

Well, good luck with the hoping that your expectations will match reality. Life is being lived without a you here right now. At this moment, where can you see a you making inputs?

I thought it might have been my decision to make a cup of tea and toast and sit and answer your questions but it was kind of automatic actions without any input and the thoughts just came from I don't know where.

dian wrote:To notice that there is life going about doing what it does and I would feel less interested in past and future and more interested in right this minute.

Can you see a you interested in past and future? Where is it?

Well it's here lost in a daydream about what I will do this afternoon. Which is just a thought and it just appeared without any help from me. I am drinking tea with no prior thought the hand just reaches out and I drink. I have thoughts about the past but I don't know what triggers them they just appear.

dian wrote:Maybe just one clear moment when I could think aha that's what it feels like.

Can you see a vampire? No? How do you know there isn't a vampire here?

I can't see one.

How does it feel to see there is no vampire here?

Quite normal I wasn't really expecting one.

Did you even bother to look?

Glanced around the room I'm in.

Why should an aha happen? Would an aha satisfy you? Would the thought "yes, this is it!" satisfy you? Would the thought be believed?

I'm not sure if it would be believed as I don't believe all thoughts.

And if it was believed would it make it true. Is a thought true?

Thoughts just seem to come and go and there not true.

dian wrote: I read through the posts of others on this site and they seem to reach a point where they are quite certain there is no going back they are through the gateless gate but I don't seem to have that certainty.

It's a question of acceptance of what can't be experienced! It's a question of acceptance that This is IT, even the doubts are IT, even the dissatisfaction is IT. It's a question of acceptance that this seeing isn't something special that will cause special experiences that prove it. The only thing needed is to drop what isn't real and look.

I have an open view of the window and outside trees. What is happening at the moment is that fingers are typing and eyes are looking out window. Where the words are coming from to type just seems to happen. Searching for the "I" that controls me continues. Searching for thoughts to write down seems to involve looking for thoughts but I don't know where and then they appear but not from a particular place.

I will continue doing some looking today.

kind regards
Dianne

[Canfora]

I'll do my best to convince you

Good. I appreciate that.

I will continue doing some looking today.

ok

I can see a recuring thought pattern in your posts implying that there is an I here, looking to experience, thinking and talking about it.

Thinking or writting about the I proves the existance of the I?
When you say "I" in your posts what exactly is this I?

[dian]

Hi Sandra,

I can see a recuring thought pattern in your posts implying that there is an I here, looking to experience, thinking and talking about it.

Thinking or writting about the I proves the existance of the I?

No. Thinking or writing about the 'I' can't prove the existence of the 'I'. Thinking or writing doesn't make something real.

When you say "I" in your posts what exactly is this I?

I guess the 'I' referred to fluctuates between being a person I think I am and this body of sensations. The place from which the world is viewed. At the moment, legs are bent up underneath and a notebook is resting on legs. A pen is running across the paper and words are forming effortlessly and soundlessly as the hand and pen move across paper. A broad view of a lounge room and through glass doors to garden is noticed. So I is where noticing seems to be done from. This body, this point of view.

kind regards
Dianne

[Canfora]

So I is where noticing seems to be done from. This body, this point of view.

Is a "noticer" here? Have a look. Where is this "noticer"? Where is the division between a "noticer" and the point of view? Where can you see an I finishing and a no I beginning?

[dian]

Hi Sandra,

Is a "noticer" here? Have a look. Where is this "noticer"? Where is the division between a "noticer" and the point of view? Where can you see an I finishing and a no I beginning?

An I comes only with a thought. Otherwise the view is just the view incorporating the arms, legs, glasses, chair, window. Take away the names of body parts and its all just view. No division between the noticer and the view just what is arising in each moment.

kind regards
Dianne

[Canfora]

An I comes only with a thought.

Is this true?
Where can you see this I that comes when thinking happens?
Can thoughts summon an I?
Can thoughts make an I disappear?
What is the role of thoughts in the illusion of being a I? Can you please explain how you see this now?

[dian]

Hi Sandra,

dian wrote:
An I comes only with a thought.
Is this true?
Where can you see this I that comes when thinking happens?
Can thoughts summon an I?
Can thoughts make an I disappear?
What is the role of thoughts in the illusion of being a I? Can you please explain how you see this now?

I guess thoughts keep the illusion going by making it an I that is walking, talking or typing instead of just walking happening, talking happening, typing happening.


kind regards
Dianne

[Canfora]

I guess thoughts keep the illusion going

You aren't sure. Why? What makes you doubt?

[dian]

dian wrote:
I guess thoughts keep the illusion going
You aren't sure. Why? What makes you doubt?

Sorry to take so long to get back to you been a busy couple of days.

Is it possible to understand all this intellectually but for it not to sink in. I keep going back to looking is just happening and doesn't need a me, walking around is just happening and doesn't need a me. Although me is superfluous everyday life seems to be the thing that sucks me in to the story of me.

At the present moment sitting typing is happening and words are coming to type from out of thin air and 'why can't I get this' is just another thought, but a very persistent one.

kind regards
Dianne

[Canfora]

You're trying to make this fit into your mold of how you expect this to be. That's impossible. And it keeps you from seeing reality. You're trying to get rid of the I and at the same time you are stuck in thoughts about me, me, me because you're expecting them to be different, to change, to disappear. At the same time you can't find an I but there is no acceptance of the simplicity of no you to be found, of zero, nil, no you in reality. Can you see this? Or there is no awareness of what is going on? When you say that you understand all this intellectually... what do you mean?

[dian]

You're trying to make this fit into your mold of how you expect this to be

I expect this to be that I see now and when caught up in thoughts about me to notice and come right back to life is happening and being stuck in thoughts about me is still life happening.

That's impossible. And it keeps you from seeing reality. You're trying to get rid of the I and at the same time you are stuck in thoughts about me, me, me because you're expecting them to be different, to change, to disappear.

Thoughts about me are very persistent and continue through the day and stopping to notice that "Oh yeah they're just thoughts and they don't need a me they just come and go anyway" seems to be the only way to come back to this happening now.

At the same time you can't find an I but there is no acceptance of the simplicity of no you to be found, of zero, nil, no you in reality.

No me is something I seem to need to keep on top of. Reminding constantly that I didn't think that thought, I didn't make this body get up and go for a walk, I didn't just decide it's time to cook tea when those thoughts and actions seem to be done by a me.

Can you see this? Or there is no awareness of what is going on?

I don't think there is a clarity of this.

When you say that you understand all this intellectually... what do you mean?

That taking everything in the room as things includes the body typing, sitting, thoughts coming and going and all of this is in awareness. Awareness incorporates everything.

kind regards
Dianne

[Canfora]

No me is something I seem to need to keep on top of. Reminding constantly that I didn't think that thought, I didn't make this body get up and go for a walk, I didn't just decide it's time to cook tea when those thoughts and actions seem to be done by a me.

What are you expecting to happen? There is nothing there to be looked at, there is only the experience of this moment happening, no owner of life. What is the me that is looking and remembering that there is no me?

Look for the need to remember when it happens. What do you expect to get from doing that? Are you trying to believe that there is no me? Why? What are you hoping for? What are your fears?

[dian]

Hi Sandra,

Sorry to take so long, I had a couple of weeks where I was unable to get time on the computer by myself. I have since been rereading our conversation to find out where I may have lost the plot. Do you think it would be a good idea to start from the beginning with a new teacher.

kind regards
Dianne

[Canfora]

Hi Dianne!

Do you think it would be a good idea to start from the beginning with a new teacher.

Yes, I think that is a good idea. vinceschubert has kindly agreed to be your new guide :)

With love and best wishes,
Sandra

[vinceschubert]

Hi Dianne, vince here.
Tell me, what is the energy level for this at the moment ?
Are you still keen to see through the illusion of an actual Self ?

love

vince