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Re: Who am I really?
Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2025 7:49 pm
by Elad
Hi Elad,
I hope your detox is progressing well and that some of the discomfort has eased. I think I understand what you mean about suffering with others and how resonating with what's happening in our bodies will always be part of our experience. I don't think I'd want it any other way--I don't to escape from life, only live it as it is, fully and (but?) without fear of it.
Regarding "seeing through sense of self" what would that mean? Given that it doesn't mean it is gone! It doesn't mean there is no sense og self. So what would it mean to "truly see through it" while it is clearly there? Look!
Yes, it's quite clear that "I" have no idea! Still looking (and remembering that looking is not thinking).
Hi, okay! Nothing coming up here when I read this. With you.
Re: Who am I really?
Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2025 3:56 am
by razorsedge
Hi Elad,
Still looking and... it seems that other things are moving too. Over Christmas break I met someone who has been showing me repeatedly (and largely unknowingly) parts of me that were very resistant to reality that I hadn't been able to see myself. So many beliefs that I had no idea were there are now being seen in clear relief and able to be dropped once they're fully realized. I'm not sure that this is even directly related to seeing no-self clearly, but my intuition right now is that it is related. Looking continues as well.
Re: Who am I really?
Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2025 10:09 am
by Elad
Hi Elad,
Still looking and... it seems that other things are moving too. Over Christmas break I met someone who has been showing me repeatedly (and largely unknowingly) parts of me that were very resistant to reality that I hadn't been able to see myself. So many beliefs that I had no idea were there are now being seen in clear relief and able to be dropped once they're fully realized. I'm not sure that this is even directly related to seeing no-self clearly, but my intuition right now is that it is related. Looking continues as well.
That is excellent. If you feel like sharing more who this person is (not as in name, as in what are they to you or what characterizes them) and how the showing happens I am interested.
In terms of seeing the nature of self, ask:
What am I stil holding on to???
Re: Who am I really?
Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2025 8:30 pm
by razorsedge
Hi Elad,
Yes, I would be happy to share. I know the LU forums are quite focused and I’m often not sure how much to share about life situation type stuff. In this case, it does seem relevant and you asked, so here goes.
Six months ago a 25 year relationship abruptly ended. At that time I’d already started the looking process and was committed to seeing beliefs and dropping them in favor of reality as it is. That event was a forcing function that made looking almost a necessity. I spent the next 6 months deeply focused and resolved on allowing every feeling to surface—I committed to feeling everything right when it came up, no matter what it was. I didn’t know what would happen, but I had a glimmer of hope that at the bottom of all that pain, there was a substrate of love. It was the only hope I had.
About mid-way through that, I started working with you on the related process of looking at reality directly, so the two processes of looking and feeling were going on in conjunction.
In December it started feeling like the suffering associated with stories related to events such as the relationship and really most any life-situation was starting to dissipate. I could feel that yes! there is love beneath it all. Then, on the trip I recently took I had the unexpected chance to try MDMA. During that, I felt my heart burst open and the love underneath everything was undeniable. I thought maybe it’d end in a day or two, but it’s been weeks now and while it’s not as intense as it was, I can still access that feeling of deep calm, love and gratitude most any time I look for it. I can feel it now.
In December I was also feeling a bit of frustration with our process and wondering why there was still not as much clarity as it seems is frequently seen here with others in these forums (I know, comparison…). As we’ve discussed, there have been some glimpses that felt close but still not certainty.
I’d started talking over text to someone I met, also quite unexpectedly, on the trip. She’s spent the last year looking deeply into authenticity. As we talked, so many of the things she shares with me felt almost shockingly open. I’ve never met anyone who lived so unguarded. I’ve always been pretty quiet and reserved and I’ve felt like that was just my nature and didn’t really ever think to look at it. In some ways, that may be true, but little by little I’ve seen through her example that I’ve been putting a layer between open expression of life as it is here, with me, and the world. I’ve been able to see through some fairly intense uncovering that there is still a LOT of fear that remains. She’s shown me step by step, without even realizing she’s doing it I think, that that fear can be let go of. It’s sometimes terrifying but every tentative step has been met with such beautiful openings that it feels like those beliefs are dissolving more and more as they’re seen.
I of course don’t know anything, but it feels like what’s being experienced is a convergence of the deep acceptance of reality that was found through the ending of the relationship, along with the progressively more clear seeing you’ve been guiding me through, and now the return to a more childlike authenticity that this person is showing me is possible. It is frankly breathtaking and I feel so much gratitude for it all. I’m still learning to trust that this could be possible. Sometimes it feels like there’s no way a gift this beautiful could be real but I only have to look to see that yes, right now it is real.
Your question, “what am I still holding onto” is particularly relevant in this context.
Re: Who am I really?
Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2025 8:57 pm
by Elad
Hi Elad,
Yes, I would be happy to share. I know the LU forums are quite focused and I’m often not sure how much to share about life situation type stuff. In this case, it does seem relevant and you asked, so here goes.
Six months ago a 25 year relationship abruptly ended. At that time I’d already started the looking process and was committed to seeing beliefs and dropping them in favor of reality as it is. That event was a forcing function that made looking almost a necessity. I spent the next 6 months deeply focused and resolved on allowing every feeling to surface—I committed to feeling everything right when it came up, no matter what it was. I didn’t know what would happen, but I had a glimmer of hope that at the bottom of all that pain, there was a substrate of love. It was the only hope I had.
About mid-way through that, I started working with you on the related process of looking at reality directly, so the two processes of looking and feeling were going on in conjunction.
In December it started feeling like the suffering associated with stories related to events such as the relationship and really most any life-situation was starting to dissipate. I could feel that yes! there is love beneath it all. Then, on the trip I recently took I had the unexpected chance to try MDMA. During that, I felt my heart burst open and the love underneath everything was undeniable. I thought maybe it’d end in a day or two, but it’s been weeks now and while it’s not as intense as it was, I can still access that feeling of deep calm, love and gratitude most any time I look for it. I can feel it now.
In December I was also feeling a bit of frustration with our process and wondering why there was still not as much clarity as it seems is frequently seen here with others in these forums (I know, comparison…). As we’ve discussed, there have been some glimpses that felt close but still not certainty.
I’d started talking over text to someone I met, also quite unexpectedly, on the trip. She’s spent the last year looking deeply into authenticity. As we talked, so many of the things she shares with me felt almost shockingly open. I’ve never met anyone who lived so unguarded. I’ve always been pretty quiet and reserved and I’ve felt like that was just my nature and didn’t really ever think to look at it. In some ways, that may be true, but little by little I’ve seen through her example that I’ve been putting a layer between open expression of life as it is here, with me, and the world. I’ve been able to see through some fairly intense uncovering that there is still a LOT of fear that remains. She’s shown me step by step, without even realizing she’s doing it I think, that that fear can be let go of. It’s sometimes terrifying but every tentative step has been met with such beautiful openings that it feels like those beliefs are dissolving more and more as they’re seen.
I of course don’t know anything, but it feels like what’s being experienced is a convergence of the deep acceptance of reality that was found through the ending of the relationship, along with the progressively more clear seeing you’ve been guiding me through, and now the return to a more childlike authenticity that this person is showing me is possible. It is frankly breathtaking and I feel so much gratitude for it all. I’m still learning to trust that this could be possible. Sometimes it feels like there’s no way a gift this beautiful could be real but I only have to look to see that yes, right now it is real.
Your question, “what am I still holding onto” is particularly relevant in this context.
This is wonderful. And the fact your process is so integrative and holistic means that as conviction of awakening dawns, "you" are in a much better place to "live it", be open to everything that comes to be seen and felt and lived.
So, how is it going with the last questions here?
Re: Who am I really?
Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2025 4:08 am
by razorsedge
Hi Elad,
I sort of disappeared for a bit. I’m not really sure why. I’ve still been looking, especially at that question of what am I still holding on to.
It seems that there’s still some fear that seeing clearly will mean a loss of my ability to fully engage with other people and life. Maybe this is stronger now that my life situation has opened up so much. There’s actually no logical reason for this fear that I can see, and… for the most part, there’s no evidence that that would be the case.
Actually, as I type that, some “evidence” does arise as I remember videos seen in the past of people who’d apparently seen clearly and then seemed to disconnect from much of their previous lives. None of them said they regretted their path but even so, it seems that it made an impression that there’s something at risk.
When I feel into that, I don’t think I’m truly deeply fearful of that, mainly because of the process that’s unfolded over the last year that has at every step, especially in the last month, shown me the exact opposite of disengagement over and over.
The feeling of openness has continued to grow. I can’t say that I’ve experienced a single moment of what I’d have previously called suffering since late December. There has been anger, sadness, and deep frustration but it hasn’t come with the heaviness of despair or a belief that the feeling would remain permanently.
Relationships with others have been as challenging as ever but haven’t felt threatening. Many of them, even long-term relationships that were always more surface level have deepened significantly.
I’ve felt very little pull towards things that I used to use as escape. Watching lots of TV, substances, etc. just don’t hold any appeal almost any of the time. Being with whatever feeling is present seems to be enough and more full than most distractions.
And…back to the point, there is still a strong longing to see clearly so all of this isn’t forgotten or lost. To just see the truth undeniably. I know it can’t be forced and there’s nothing I could possibly complain about other than a subtle feeling that it’s disappointing that it’s taken “so long.”
Thank you again for all your guidance, there is a very deep sense of gratitude. I plan to come back to writing here every day after that little hiatus.
Re: Who am I really?
Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2025 11:45 am
by Elad
Wonderful development!
I can understand your fear. Personally awakened people who seem flat or disengaged from normal life is not appealing. I think this has so many ways to express. I also think, the more our pre-awakening life is based all on social mask and self image deception (including from ourselves) defense-mechanisms, the more we might get into a period of vacuum (or honeymoon peace and then vacuum and then shadow work turmoil). The more we are connected genuinely to body, feelings, others, love, life, autenticity, genuine human maturity - the more all the good stuff just continue to evolve, unpredictably as it always had. That said, there are no promises where I come from - not with awakening and not without awakening.
So it boils down to: Is there a strong wish to see clearly what is actually here and what is not here?
That is what it is all about. As long as we are focused on expectations (fearful or hopeful) we are not 100% interested in just what is here and not here now. Which is again, all what this is about.
What does self and the self thoughts refer to in direct lived experience? What do you see?
------
Regarding the subtle dissappointment "this has taken so long". Please look more into that. What are the feelings, assumptions, etc. How does it relate to old patterns of self-understanding and life-story understanding? And how does all that actually relate to what is actually here now in direct experience? Is there anything all that refers to HERE at all?
Re: Who am I really?
Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2025 4:47 am
by razorsedge
I also think, the more our pre-awakening life is based all on social mask and self image deception (including from ourselves) defense-mechanisms, the more we might get into a period of vacuum (or honeymoon peace and then vacuum and then shadow work turmoil). The more we are connected genuinely to body, feelings, others, love, life, autenticity, genuine human maturity - the more all the good stuff just continue to evolve, unpredictably as it always had. That said, there are no promises where I come from - not with awakening and not without awakening.
Thank you for saying this. I’ve had a sort of intuition that there needed to be some maturing done before there could be true openness to clear seeing. I can see how this might be just another face of fear, but if that’s all it is, I’m glad to have had it unfold this way in any case. So much has been seen through
Is there a strong wish to see clearly what is actually here and what is not here?
Yes. There is definitely some fear arising, again related to how it might change life. It feels a little bit reckless. Also doubts about how a pattern of thoughts can be trusted to actually have a wish as such. That’s what’s here in thoughts, but even so seeing clearly is, as far as I can tell, the sole aim for the rest of this life, the only direction that I have any desire to move in. Fear or no fear.
What does self and the self thoughts refer to in direct lived experience? What do you see?
Self right now refers to … I don’t know. Without thinking it seems to refer to … actually I don’t really know. Without thoughts there’s certainly something—sensations, sights etc., but there’s nothing to answer the question. At the moment it feels very restful, the feeling of the body loosening. I know I’ve looked at this a million times but right now I find nothing specific referenced and at the same time a very distinct feeling of the fear from the previous question dissipating from the body.
Re: Who am I really?
Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2025 11:15 am
by Elad
I also think, the more our pre-awakening life is based all on social mask and self image deception (including from ourselves) defense-mechanisms, the more we might get into a period of vacuum (or honeymoon peace and then vacuum and then shadow work turmoil). The more we are connected genuinely to body, feelings, others, love, life, autenticity, genuine human maturity - the more all the good stuff just continue to evolve, unpredictably as it always had. That said, there are no promises where I come from - not with awakening and not without awakening.
Thank you for saying this. I’ve had a sort of intuition that there needed to be some maturing done before there could be true openness to clear seeing. I can see how this might be just another face of fear, but if that’s all it is, I’m glad to have had it unfold this way in any case. So much has been seen through
Lovely.
Is there a strong wish to see clearly what is actually here and what is not here?
Yes. There is definitely some fear arising, again related to how it might change life. It feels a little bit reckless. Also doubts about how a pattern of thoughts can be trusted to actually have a wish as such. That’s what’s here in thoughts, but even so seeing clearly is, as far as I can tell, the sole aim for the rest of this life, the only direction that I have any desire to move in. Fear or no fear.
Okay! Next time it feels reckless or fear comes, really feel the fear. And then look what is it trying to protect? Maybe there will first be thoughts, see these and see if it feels okay to let them go. Then look what is the fear trying to protect that exists in direct experience?
What does self and the self thoughts refer to in direct lived experience? What do you see?
Self right now refers to … I don’t know. Without thinking it seems to refer to … actually I don’t really know. Without thoughts there’s certainly something—sensations, sights etc., but there’s nothing to answer the question. At the moment it feels very restful, the feeling of the body loosening. I know I’ve looked at this a million times but right now I find nothing specific referenced and at the same time a very distinct feeling of the fear from the previous question dissipating from the body.
This is it. You are right there, finding nothing, relaxing into that. Let it sink in - all these self-thoughts refer to nothing in the most intimate and direct experience. All the trying to be something ultimately real and stable and unquestionable for nothing.... (Not to be confused with on the conventional level to mature and develop towards autenticity, sincerity, kindness, wholesomeness).
Re: Who am I really?
Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2025 8:50 am
by razorsedge
I forgot to look at this one last night—
Regarding the subtle dissappointment "this has taken so long". Please look more into that. What are the feelings, assumptions, etc. How does it relate to old patterns of self-understanding and life-story understanding? And how does all that actually relate to what is actually here now in direct experience? Is there anything all that refers to HERE at all?
Yes, there’s a story that something needs to happen to… I guess go through the gateless gate to “start” from the beginning, another that usually I can figure stuff out fast and why not this, and another that maybe you’re going to get impatient or bored with me etc. Looking in reality without the thoughts/stories none of that feels important. It’s much quieter.
Okay! Next time it feels reckless or fear comes, really feel the fear. And then look what is it trying to protect? Maybe there will first be thoughts, see these and see if it feels okay to let them go. Then look what is the fear trying to protect that exists in direct experience?
Right now the fear comes up less as thoughts and more as a feeling in the chest of sort of warm tightness. It does feel protective. If it’s allowed to be there, it feels a little more restful.
It feels like there should be more to say but that seems to be all that’s coming up tonight. There was quite a bit of looking today, both just as a natural part of daily activities but also sitting and writing about what came up as it was experienced.
Re: Who am I really?
Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2025 10:19 am
by Elad
I forgot to look at this one last night—
Regarding the subtle dissappointment "this has taken so long". Please look more into that. What are the feelings, assumptions, etc. How does it relate to old patterns of self-understanding and life-story understanding? And how does all that actually relate to what is actually here now in direct experience? Is there anything all that refers to HERE at all?
Yes, there’s a story that something needs to happen to… I guess go through the gateless gate to “start” from the beginning, another that usually I can figure stuff out fast and why not this, and another that maybe you’re going to get impatient or bored with me etc. Looking in reality without the thoughts/stories none of that feels important. It’s much quieter.
💚
Stay with the much quieter :)
Okay! Next time it feels reckless or fear comes, really feel the fear. And then look what is it trying to protect? Maybe there will first be thoughts, see these and see if it feels okay to let them go. Then look what is the fear trying to protect that exists in direct experience?
Right now the fear comes up less as thoughts and more as a feeling in the chest of sort of warm tightness. It does feel protective. If it’s allowed to be there, it feels a little more restful.
Great. Just let it happen.
Ilona Cuinaite writes in the (great) book Liberation Unleashed "at this point you are either seeing or thinking that you don't". Seems appropriate to share here now. Play around with that quote, like a natural koan in your pocket.
Re: Who am I really?
Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2025 11:22 am
by Elad
The exact quote from Ilona:
"At this point [...], you either see that you see it or you think that you don't see it"
Re: Who am I really?
Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2025 6:34 am
by razorsedge
I’m not sure what to write except that everything feels a slightly further away at the moment. It feels a little harder to access that feeling of love and gratitude, which is fine. I guess there’s also a subtle fear coming up that momentum will be lost. Mostly though, just a strong yearning for seeing clearly which part of me believes is probably not helping with the actual seeing. I don’t know what’s being held onto. It feels like most every thought that is in resistance to reality is seen and questioned when it arises but there must still be something standing in the way of a moment of true clarity.
"At this point [...], you either see that you see it or you think that you don't see it"
I guess I think that I don’t see it... of course with the implication that I see it and don’t know I do. I just want no self or clear seeing to be unquestionably clear. It sometimes feels like I’m trying to force it still.
I can return to looking without thoughts though. Just a direct look at what is actually real. It is quiet. If only I could find a way to trust it enough to fall into the simplicity of it.
In any case, I keep returning to looking as relaxed and effortlessly as possible.
Re: Who am I really?
Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2025 9:07 am
by Elad
Anything that comes goes.....
Here is an exercise, I think you maybe did it quite a while back, but do it again "from now":
Deeper Body Investigation
Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.
Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.
2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?
(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?
(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?
(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?
(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.
Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?
(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts). Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when
all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?
(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’? Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?
(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?
Re: Who am I really?
Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2025 6:30 am
by razorsedge
Hey Elad,
I don't think I'd done this one before. While doing it I can notice the feeling of disassociation with the body briefly then quickly a thought coming up to pull the story back together. Then letting go of the thought and feeling again how there's nothing actually in immediate experience that definitively connects feelings to what’s seen either in the mirror or not. It’s a bit disconcerting at first, kind of floaty feeling. I only made time to do it once today, tomorrow I'll try to keep going with it.