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Re: It’s already present
Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2024 11:26 am
by Elad
Very beautiful, very clear.
Without filters reality is raw/direct and so it is understandable that lots of "stress" can flow through.
Explore, what is this stress?
What is the direct experience of stress?
Is there anything in direct experience that says that it is stress or that it is unpleasant?
Shabbat shalom 🤍
Re: It’s already present
Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2024 4:47 am
by Rega
Hey, first of all I’m not quite sure that it is unpleasant. I mean, in old terms sure, it’s the feeling of contraction in the belly, and pressure, and breath is becoming short and shallow. Everything.
But I spend more and more time with this feeling and it is not exactly stress and not exactly not pleasant. It really just moves. And it feels real and direct and loving to be with.
But, interestingly, I just found myself doing actions that are related to stress (peeling nails, stuff like that…) in an unaware manner. Let’s investigate here too. It’s when attention(?) is more in thought, and when I try to feel into the stress now, it is unpleasant (a thought says). Breathing is shallow and fast, and thoughts about it being not good. I’m staying here. I’m staying here. Moving between the effort to stay here and surrendering to the feeling. Is effort and surrender real here? I know their quality, but they are also ideas.
Now, feeling the stress. The tension feeling. Trying to feel what is it that knows the stress now, and didn’t feel it 20 min ago. It is just sensations. Flow of life. I have no answer, but the feeling of expansion now making me drop it basically. And feel as perfect as everything else.
This feeling, to put in more words, just makes every other question seem irrelevant. It’s not knowing the answer, but more of silence. Not even in the present moment, in the way it is perceived by the mind. Not even no self.
Re: It’s already present
Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2024 11:08 am
by Elad
Yes, listen to that feeling as much as possible, respectfully invite it, stay with the mystery...
Yes, "no self" is also only label.
That said though, when you during normal day have interactions and moments with "feeling like a separate self" that "needs to control and choose right", look/inquire:
What is the appearance of me, how does it manifest in senses and thoughts?
What do those sensations and thoughts really refer to?
What is really controlling what is happening now?
Re: It’s already present
Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2024 4:53 am
by Rega
It seems so funny now.
The appearance of me, is just present as a thought about the future, about planning, about being somewhere else. It has something with cause and effect as they are perceived.
Cause - thinking of drinking coffee. Effect - taste of coffee now present.
Can I see that even cause and effect, how they are really or perceived, both are not true indicators of self?
Yes. Yes. It is just how things are. So what remains here?
What feels like control? The connection between thought and action. No. It’s the elusive, non-thought based causing of movement in the body (at least now this is how control is perceived). And yet, even this one is not indicator of self right. Not as another logic understanding, but as pure grounded flat knowing - the fact that there is cause and effect don’t indicate someone that caused it.
No. This is self trying to catch self. I’m talking with mind. Or moving between mind and experience.
Let’s investigate this one - what feels like self here? Just the familiar feeling of being in a loop, or imagining the structure of soul/reality as something categorized. Is this self? No. Is this even true? No.
I’m left with the feeling of silence and tears.
See you later
Re: It’s already present
Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2024 10:03 am
by Elad
Stay with the silence. What is there - what is this?
When it becomes natural to continue to another focus:
1) "Self can't get out of self" - is there a self that can't get out of self?
"There is no self"
"There is no Santa Claus"
2) Is there any experiential difference between these two claims? If yes, what is it?
Re: It’s already present
Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2024 3:15 pm
by Elad
Something came up after our meeting...
Also, look into:
3)
Why is it still being believed that it is me?
Why is it still being believed that it is me that is clear on what I want or not clear on what I want, enjoying or not enjoying, seeing through the separate self illusion or not... Why is it being believed that this is me?
This questioned might be "a keeper" until all doubt is fully resolved.
Re: It’s already present
Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2024 2:18 am
by Rega
1) "Self can't get out of self" - is there a self that can't get out of self?
No no. It is just the talking within the illusion. It is just pointing the way out but don’t mistake the finger for the moon.
"There is no self". "There is no Santa Claus"
2) Is there any experiential difference between these two claims? If yes, what is it?
Well, I’m obsessed with one and not with the other. I’m saying it because the first one is loaded with meaning and emotions. Meaning - it is not as simple as the latter. Not as direct.
But right here, I see it. Ok, I see it.
I mean. This is an idea and this is an idea. This has no real proof and also this. I’m left with all the directness of the world. I am all the directness.
3)Why is it still being believed that it is me?
Why is it still being believed that it is me that is clear on what I want or not clear on what I want, enjoying or not enjoying, seeing through the separate self illusion or not... Why is it being believed that this is me?
First of all, it’s not necessarily believed, not so solid, not so familiar.
What is left here, as I perceive it today, is the idea of success, of Zoie that has qualities and that has to succeed.
There is wisdom or skills inside this body. There is action in the world. I imagine them to be mine, ownership. That’s bullshit. The flow can’t be owned. By what. (DONT LOOK THERE - a thought says - so I dive).
“I am a beautiful being” “I am on a spiritual journey” “I am Zoie” “I am loved”.
I am Zoie. Nothing. Nothing. (BUT I AM)
I see. I see. I finished for today. For now. But I see.
Bye✌🏼
Re: It’s already present
Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2024 9:24 am
by Elad
1) "Self can't get out of self" - is there a self that can't get out of self?
No no. It is just the talking within the illusion. It is just pointing the way out but don’t mistake the finger for the moon.
Right
"There is no self". "There is no Santa Claus"
2) Is there any experiential difference between these two claims? If yes, what is it?
Well, I’m obsessed with one and not with the other. I’m saying it because the first one is loaded with meaning and emotions. Meaning - it is not as simple as the latter. Not as direct.
I understand. What we are looking to realize is not that preferences, love in the relative, the struggles of life, will all disappear. What we are looking for is that there is no real Santa playing Santa and there is no real separate self controlling and choosing what conventionally is called Zoie, Zoies beliefs, Zoies obsessions. They all just are what they are, you are not the controller or chooser of any of that.
Is it true?
Is it clear?
If no, how no?
If yes, how does it feel?
I am all the directness.
Sit with "I am the directness" and "the directness just is, by itself". Say both several time and feel/see.
What is the difference?
3)Why is it still being believed that it is me?
Why is it still being believed that it is me that is clear on what I want or not clear on what I want, enjoying or not enjoying, seeing through the separate self illusion or not... Why is it being believed that this is me?
First of all, it’s not necessarily believed, not so solid, not so familiar.
Right it is shifting... And keep looking how/why the residual belief is there. Be curious about it.
What is left here, as I perceive it today, is the idea of success, of Zoie that has qualities and that has to succeed.
There is wisdom or skills inside this body. There is action in the world. I imagine them to be mine, ownership. That’s bullshit. The flow can’t be owned. By what. (DONT LOOK THERE - a thought says - so I dive).
“I am a beautiful being” “I am on a spiritual journey” “I am Zoie” “I am loved”.
I am Zoie. Nothing. Nothing. (BUT I AM)
I see. I see. I finished for today. For now. But I see.
Bye✌🏼
Try and go past all the different feelings and look soberly, why am believing that I am the owner and controller of the beliefs, feelings, the thoughts?
Did you read/ are you reading Gateless Gatecrashers?
Re: It’s already present
Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2024 10:05 am
by Elad
Re: It’s already present
Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2024 4:23 am
by Rega
OK I'll go from last to first.
So the video is amazing, I'll write a bit to integrate it. the mind takes a snapshot of the present sensory field, and then runs with it to create - time, self doubt, a feeling of a journey, a feeling of me.
For me, the stubborn belief is that - I AM NOT THERE YET, and also something that still atributes qualities to something permenant.
Wait, even STILL here is a way to do it. It is still like that through the illusion of time.
Who am I without all those beliefs - about a spritiual journey, about qualities, about anything. Who am I just with the freshness of the present moment, nothing added? nothing can't be added.
All those qualities Zoie seems to imagine she has, It just feeds the mind. It's the best story. Because the snapshot again and again proves it right. But nothing lives here. not any of this. So much sadness rises in giving away the past. No, the mind is giving away nothing. No past, never was. It's not giving away anything.
What remains? Now the story (as she said) - I've been here before. This is not awakening. Or even the story of by checking the awakening status I am ruining it all. So two stries - self doubt/ familiarity and blame. This are all stories. All stories.
So thoughts come now. Is this awakening. Or just about breakfast. But everything is much more real. You can't take a snapshot of the senses. I can't even see who does it. Where. Life is happening in this infinaty. That's it.
Any more beliefs? I've been here before and... NO BEFORE!!! what is before. Why do I believe before. "because it did happen", Where. "I know that it did happen". So, the memory, the sense of famliarity, and the supposed knowing are all here, are all a way of the mind to snapshot this moment and say something about it.
What else remains? This can't be it. what can't be what.
"I am afraid to leave now because then this will stop" - I am seeing in my mind other times (what is other times), And thinking how, doesn't even matter.
Who is taking the snapshot, who is believed to be it all. Who even sees it is false?
So this was a lot. I took a long break out of exhaustion.
I'll try to answer more or write more later.
Maybe - what is felt now, is. I am stuck. Foggy. It is very hard to write anything.
I'll try later. Exhausted.
Re: It’s already present
Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2024 9:19 am
by Elad
Hi :)
Gateless Gatecrashers?
For me, the stubborn belief is that - I AM NOT THERE YET, and also something that still atributes qualities to something permenant.
Good seeing.
Play with alternating being in touch with the feeling that YOU are doing all that...
And the perspective that it is true what many awake ones have said, that there is absolutely no one doing any of that, controlling or choosing anything, succeding or not succeeding. That the story of you is absolutely no more then fiction.
Just try to get in touch with both perspectives many times, shift between them.
the story (as she said) - I've been here before. This is not awakening. Or even the story of by checking the awakening status I am ruining it all. So two stries - self doubt/ familiarity and blame. This are all stories. All stories.
Good catching.
Switch between:
I do all that, I catch it, I ruin it - and....
All this mind-feeling-seeing-not-seeing stuff happens by itself referring to absolutely no body.
Many times.
Re: It’s already present
Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2024 9:43 am
by Rega
Ok about the book I was about to reply too but then reality hit.
So, I read a few chapters back home and another one here. I’ll read some more, definitely. And thank you for being so persistent with me, sometimes I need it (as we know, the line is fine between avoidance or laziness to being gentle and easy and releasing intention)
With that said, I have to ask you. Do you know these are real dialogues? I mean, ok, so while reading it I get very clear seeings, so it is potent. But on the other hand, it all feels not real. Like the characters seems to be written down to be some kinds of archetypes. I can’t seem to believe these are actual dialogues of actual beings. And if so - did they just wake up like that? 5-12 pages and bam? I mean. Then you and me must be doing something wrong (and I know we’re not). I’m expressing it all cause you’ve asked, and because if you could tell me that you know these are actual people it will be easier to read (and also frustrating). And maybe because I also find it kind of funny to share literacy criticism :)
And if these are fiction characters, then also good, I can take what I need out of them. Anyway,
Have a beautiful day
Re: It’s already present
Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2024 9:56 am
by Elad
They are real.
I know Ilona, she is sincere - and a potent guide. Of course those dialogues were selected amongst many, for being short and sharp and pointed. Some people I guided had a "length" like that and some go for much much longer than we have. Really the only thing that matters is the sincerity and attention. A quick process is not necessarily better. It might lead to a more confused and unstable "post awakening honey-moon" process. Every bit of clarifying, letting go, seen and loving that happens during this exchange can continue in ripples for the benefit of all.
I will send you (on WhatsApp) an excerpt from the book Ordinary Mind by psychiatrist and Zen teacher Barry Magid. It speaks to some of the same... Same but different but ;)
Re: It’s already present
Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2024 4:45 am
by Rega
Try and go past all the different feelings and look soberly, why am believing that I am the owner and controller of the beliefs, feelings, the thoughts?
I can't see it now. I don't believe it. I mean, I can feel into the sense of control right here, but it is also just present, the sense of it.
And mainly you ask me to alternate between feeling me in some way - I ruin, I see, I live, to no one is doing, life happens on its own, seeing is just is.
Something doesn't stick for so long. In both of them. I am just feeling this release of the question right now. I am really trying to investigate into, let's say, the part that wants to go grab breakfast now. It sees, NO, it expriences almost the entire "movie" of breakfast. And that is me. Why? Because there is a part that knows this is how it will look like. That's just another thought. even the knowing is another thought. ah. Even the image of different aspects of MY identity. IDENTITY. MY. what feels that? It falls away when I look directly at it. In a way it is just gone, In another way it is elusive enough to sneak back? what sneaks back. the thought, the ordinary. That's a thought.
It doesn't stick so long, the exprience is more of a flow? more easy? It feels like shedding layers of identity or selfness. I let it have its own rythme.... Now there is a strong feeling in the stomach. I follow it...
I also want to share. I feel like it, maybe just so it is heard. A lot is happening the past months and especially lately regarding energies, "special states" as you called it once. I mean, I did family constellation yesterday, and I completly embodied some spirit. Really reminded me of Improv (thank you for that). Like "I" was not there. But everything, Kundalini, reiki, feeling to be split or just some voice inside, manifesting, now this spirit. I am not talking about it much, most of my close friends are not in this field, and even so when I talk about it I feel like I don't want to develop some spiritual ego around these. Why am I sharing now? First I'll just trust this voice that wants to be heard. And then, I know it is all connected to this process, like emptying the vessel, so there is more space.
And maybe yesterday felt important. I mean, I was not there. So it is that easy, that possible, to just let something else control the body and actions and everything. So something with the illusion broke. It was also terryifing. But all is beautiful. And maybe it is a good chance to remind myself that this is too not dual. there is no actual spirit that took over actual Zoie, that is still mind. But rather a flow that changed direction, speed, whatever, due to some need in the field. Yes.
Re: It’s already present
Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2024 11:16 am
by Elad
Try and go past all the different feelings and look soberly, why am believing that I am the owner and controller of the beliefs, feelings, the thoughts?
I can't see it now. I don't believe it. I mean, I can feel into the sense of control right here, but it is also just present, the sense of it.
And mainly you ask me to alternate between feeling me in some way - I ruin, I see, I live, to no one is doing, life happens on its own, seeing is just is.
Something doesn't stick for so long. In both of them.
Would you want open explorative presence and the capacity to experience both "self view" and "impersonal view" to be replaced by only one of them?
I am just feeling this release of the question right now. I am really trying to investigate into, let's say, the part that wants to go grab breakfast now. It sees, NO, it expriences almost the entire "movie" of breakfast. And that is me. Why? Because there is a part that knows this is how it will look like. That's just another thought. even the knowing is another thought. ah. Even the image of different aspects of MY identity. IDENTITY. MY. what feels that? It falls away when I look directly at it. In a way it is just gone, In another way it is elusive enough to sneak back? what sneaks back. the thought, the ordinary. That's a thought.
It doesn't stick so long, the exprience is more of a flow? more easy? It feels like shedding layers of identity or selfness. I let it have its own rythme.... Now there is a strong feeling in the stomach. I follow it...
I like the quality of surrender and honoring the process.
I also want to share. I feel like it, maybe just so it is heard. A lot is happening the past months and especially lately regarding energies, "special states" as you called it once. I mean, I did family constellation yesterday, and I completly embodied some spirit. Really reminded me of Improv (thank you for that). Like "I" was not there. But everything, Kundalini, reiki, feeling to be split or just some voice inside, manifesting, now this spirit. I am not talking about it much, most of my close friends are not in this field, and even so when I talk about it I feel like I don't want to develop some spiritual ego around these. Why am I sharing now? First I'll just trust this voice that wants to be heard. And then, I know it is all connected to this process, like emptying the vessel, so there is more space.
And maybe yesterday felt important. I mean, I was not there. So it is that easy, that possible, to just let something else control the body and actions and everything. So something with the illusion broke. It was also terryifing. But all is beautiful. And maybe it is a good chance to remind myself that this is too not dual. there is no actual spirit that took over actual Zoie, that is still mind. But rather a flow that changed direction, speed, whatever, due to some need in the field. Yes.
This sounds powerful and exciting and maybe several other feelings. How does it feel?
One of the members of my sangha is a teacher of constellation in Israel, and one of my closest colleagues is finishing her training in constellation now. Thought it might be fun to mention, since this is coming up for you also.