Keeping It Simple

[gbeene]

Morning!

There are likely many triggers, so let's can you remember the time when you looked at the clock and the selfing chain started?

Imagine it, but now instead of going into selfing, imagine yourself in that scenario looking for the self, getting curious, like we've 'practiced'.

Do this around 5-10 times. Basically enough to have it start happening automatically.
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Ok I have been doing this with the clock and with looking at that area of my computer screen generally.

It feels like it causes tightness in my chest and then thoughts speed up, looking for problems, inventing future stories, planning, etc.

There's no self to be found in the physical sensations that arise when this happens, but that is upon examination.

Yes, it can feel very similar. The difference is usually heaviness vs. lightness. Do you notice this difference or do you notice something else?

Yes it's something like lighter. It's subtle though. Like one less Thing is happening. A little weight put down for a moment.


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[Bluejay]

Ok I have been doing this with the clock and with looking at that area of my computer screen generally.

It feels like it causes tightness in my chest and then thoughts speed up, looking for problems, inventing future stories, planning, etc.

There's no self to be found in the physical sensations that arise when this happens, but that is upon examination.

Are you noticing a change in the trigger/reaction?

Before this, you looked at the clock and would go into the tightness sequence.

Now after visualizing seeing the clock and then feeling tightness, but looking for the self, is looking at the clock different?

Yes it's something like lighter. It's subtle though. Like one less Thing is happening. A little weight put down for a moment.

That's good. Remember, seeing that there's no inherent self doesn't necessarily change any tightness or contraction. It's like you said, one less thing happening.

[gbeene]

Morning!

Are you noticing a change in the trigger/reaction?

Before this, you looked at the clock and would go into the tightness sequence.

Now after visualizing seeing the clock and then feeling tightness, but looking for the self, is looking at the clock different?

A subtle change, yeah. Thinking about the clock doesn't cause as much of a physical reaction anymore.

Sitting and trying to spring a trap on the arising of the self seems to keep it from arising altogether, which is interesting. It's like if I'm sitting and waiting and looking, nothing I see pops up to claim itself as "me". But maybe that's because the waiting/looking is where the "me" is, as you were saying before.

But if I look for where "I" am in waiting/looking, waiting is just future thoughts in reference to "me" thoughts and looking is just happening as previously noted.
quote]

That's good. Remember, seeing that there's no inherent self doesn't necessarily change any tightness or contraction. It's like you said, one less thing happening.

This is a good point - I do think this expectation is constantly renewing itself even if I've seen it. Expecting something to change.


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[Bluejay]

A subtle change, yeah. Thinking about the clock doesn't cause as much of a physical reaction anymore.

Now go back to the other scenarios and write here what you find as you do the same process there.

I believe one was about the calendar? Find physical triggers if possible, like looking at the clock.

Sitting and trying to spring a trap on the arising of the self seems to keep it from arising altogether, which is interesting. It's like if I'm sitting and waiting and looking, nothing I see pops up to claim itself as "me". But maybe that's because the waiting/looking is where the "me" is, as you were saying before.

What is it that's going to claim 'me'?

That last sentence sounds like thought instead of looking directly.

But if I look for where "I" am in waiting/looking, waiting is just future thoughts in reference to "me" thoughts and looking is just happening as previously noted.

Yup, exactly. Nice looking there :)

Basically what this comes down to at this stage is you incorporating this into your everyday life. Look at where there is a sense of self, then inquire there, like we're doing.

This is a good point - I do think this expectation is constantly renewing itself even if I've seen it. Expecting something to change.

If the contraction is trauma/anxiety, then something like EMDR is needed.

I forgot to tell you that there's an offshoot of EMDR called Brainspotting. Maybe those are also available in your area.

[gbeene]

Morning!

Now go back to the other scenarios and write here what you find as you do the same process there.

I believe one was about the calendar? Find physical triggers if possible, like looking at the clock.

Is it too broad to use my phone in general as one? I get so instantly lost in it. And there's a subconscious drive to pull it back out of my pocket and look at it.

If that's too broad, looking at the "Outlook" app on my phone is a big one.

Before I open the app, a contraction of anxiety arises. There is resistance to this anxiety, a desire to distract from it as soon as possible. A resistance to staying with the body. Thoughts are unsure of what will be there when I look. There is fear that something out of my control will cause more anxiety feelings. But it feels like that fear wants to / needs to be dug into, scratched at, by looking at the e-mails. All problems must be solved or else.

I am continuing to visualize it to make this chain of events arise, and will keep doing it today as I see the "new e-mail" ping pop up.

Sitting and trying to spring a trap on the arising of the self seems to keep it from arising altogether, which is interesting. It's like if I'm sitting and waiting and looking, nothing I see pops up to claim itself as "me". But maybe that's because the waiting/looking is where the "me" is, as you were saying before.

What is it that's going to claim 'me'?

That last sentence sounds like thought instead of looking directly.

Busted :)

Sensations couldn't "say" or "claim" anything as they are just sensations. "This is me/mine/I'm this" is solely the realm of thoughts, so the only thing that could "claim me" is a thought saying just that. So if I am watching waiting for something to feel like "me", the only thing that will do so is the thoughts that start referring to a self, like "I don't understand" "I don't even know what "me" feels like" "This never works" "I am too tired" "Nothing will happen anyways". But even those aren't so directly claiming something as me, they are making a reference to something else that is not there in the moment. It would be more obvious if my thoughts said "This is me, I am your arm sensations!" but instead they become the narrative creating itself, hence my frustration at how slippery the self-creation process is!

If the contraction is trauma/anxiety, then something like EMDR is needed.

I forgot to tell you that there's an offshoot of EMDR called Brainspotting. Maybe those are also available in your area.

Still trying to coordinate with a guy to get an EMDR consult going. I'll see if there are any Brainspotting people around me. I have some resistance to moving away from "traditional" psych stuff, usual self-fear about being a rube or buying into some trendy new-age fluff, that kind of thing. But that is just a thought, and I am here to follow all leads presented to me in this process, doubt be damned.

[Bluejay]

Before I open the app, a contraction of anxiety arises. There is resistance to this anxiety, a desire to distract from it as soon as possible. A resistance to staying with the body. Thoughts are unsure of what will be there when I look. There is fear that something out of my control will cause more anxiety feelings. But it feels like that fear wants to / needs to be dug into, scratched at, by looking at the e-mails. All problems must be solved or else.

I am continuing to visualize it to make this chain of events arise, and will keep doing it today as I see the "new e-mail" ping pop up.

Yes, phone is too broad. Outlook is more specific.

So remember, you are looking to see if there is a self there controlling anxiety. You are not doing anything with the anxiety itself. To whom is the anxiety a problem? What is the anxiety referring to?

Stay focused on the inherent self inquiry.

Sensations couldn't "say" or "claim" anything as they are just sensations. "This is me/mine/I'm this" is solely the realm of thoughts, so the only thing that could "claim me" is a thought saying just that. So if I am watching waiting for something to feel like "me", the only thing that will do so is the thoughts that start referring to a self, like "I don't understand" "I don't even know what "me" feels like" "This never works" "I am too tired" "Nothing will happen anyways". But even those aren't so directly claiming something as me, they are making a reference to something else that is not there in the moment. It would be more obvious if my thoughts said "This is me, I am your arm sensations!" but instead they become the narrative creating itself, hence my frustration at how slippery the self-creation process is!

Exactly. All thought is reflective. Thought refers to other thoughts or the senses.

It's not slippery, the answer is right there. Slippery is you believing another thought. What is slippery? Where is the one that is slippery?

What slips? :)

Keep inquiring through whatever comes up.

Still trying to coordinate with a guy to get an EMDR consult going. I'll see if there are any Brainspotting people around me. I have some resistance to moving away from "traditional" psych stuff, usual self-fear about being a rube or buying into some trendy new-age fluff, that kind of thing. But that is just a thought, and I am here to follow all leads presented to me in this process, doubt be damned.

EMDR is anything but new-age fluff. I know you didn't mean that but I'm answering the underlying concern. It's widely researched and evidence-based.

Here's a short quote from a website:

"EMDR therapy is extensively researched and widely recognized as effective trauma therapy. EMDR therapy is recognized as evidenced-based treatment for PTSD and other trauma and stressor disorders in treatment guidelines published by the International Society for Traumatic Stress Studies, the World Health Organization, and a growing number of national and international organizations. Treatment guidelines are based on reviews that evaluate the research of established evidence-based mental health treatments."

[gbeene]

Hey there.

So remember, you are looking to see if there is a self there controlling anxiety. You are not doing anything with the anxiety itself. To whom is the anxiety a problem? What is the anxiety referring to?

Stay focused on the inherent self inquiry.

I have been looking at the icon, imagining clicking into it, and then just feeling the body sensations as they come up. I try to "become receptive to thoughts" to catch when I'm doing them but thought starts "doing it" immediately, imagining what I'm going to feel when I open the app, looking for the self in that... leading to your next point....

Exactly. All thought is reflective. Thought refers to other thoughts or the senses.

It's not slippery, the answer is right there. Slippery is you believing another thought. What is slippery? Where is the one that is slippery?

What slips? :)

My sits/process right now look like this:

Try to become receptive to thoughts. Try to see thoughts as they arise. Realize I have just thought those two sentences and did not catch them as thoughts. To whom is this happening? What is thought made of? What is it that allows thoughts to appear? It's right here... it's right here.... I keep telling myself that when I get frustrated and stuck. The frustration is a part of it... the confusion is a part of it... the song stuck in my head every waking second of quiet is part of it... but I can't make it happen, the thing cannot be seen by what I have available to see with, it is not a thing.

If a song is stuck in my head, I cannot become enlightened. A moment of silence is necessary. I must make silence happen. I am doing this wrong.

Very convincing and familiar voices. Telling them they are allowed to be here helps relax around it. Watch for thoughts to arise. "I just thought 'watch for thoughts to arise..." :)

All of the above is audio thoughts in my brain while on the cushion, the entire paragraph is a thought. But seen as such as I'm typing.

EMDR is anything but new-age fluff. I know you didn't mean that but I'm answering the underlying concern. It's widely researched and evidence-based.

Here's a short quote from a website:

"EMDR therapy is extensively researched and widely recognized as effective trauma therapy. EMDR therapy is recognized as evidenced-based treatment for PTSD and other trauma and stressor disorders in treatment guidelines published by the International Society for Traumatic Stress Studies, the World Health Organization, and a growing number of national and international organizations. Treatment guidelines are based on reviews that evaluate the research of established evidence-based mental health treatments."

Thanks. I'm expanding my search within the city to a couple other places I had initially written off. I am curious to try it.

[Bluejay]

My sits/process right now look like this:

Try to become receptive to thoughts. Try to see thoughts as they arise. Realize I have just thought those two sentences and did not catch them as thoughts. To whom is this happening? What is thought made of? What is it that allows thoughts to appear? It's right here... it's right here.... I keep telling myself that when I get frustrated and stuck. The frustration is a part of it... the confusion is a part of it... the song stuck in my head every waking second of quiet is part of it... but I can't make it happen, the thing cannot be seen by what I have available to see with, it is not a thing.

If a song is stuck in my head, I cannot become enlightened. A moment of silence is necessary. I must make silence happen. I am doing this wrong.

Very convincing and familiar voices. Telling them they are allowed to be here helps relax around it. Watch for thoughts to arise. "I just thought 'watch for thoughts to arise..." :)

All of the above is audio thoughts in my brain while on the cushion, the entire paragraph is a thought. But seen as such as I'm typing.

Maybe it's time to laser-focus on the self inquiry. Meaning, don't mix allowing thoughts and emotion work (like with the sentences).

Keep things very simple. In the present moment, where is the self?

Perhaps a thought comes up and says "it's right here," so you look. If a thought labels a sensation, is it the sensation? Don't be quick to jump around. Rest in the sensation. Is that it? Listen to the answer from the body.

Instead of proving that there is no self, where is the evidence for the inherent self?

From the above, it seems you do a lot of trying to think your way through this. Allowing with thoughts. Looking with thoughts.

No thought has the answer. Feel the answer in direct experience.

Imagine you're outside for a walk in the forest. You hear rustling in the forest. You look and listen very attentively. This is the kind of looking that is required here.

There's no need to engage with thought at all.

Switch to the breath during your sits. Just focus on the sensations of the breath going in and out. Nothing else. When thoughts come, you can label them 'thought' and re-focus on the breath.

If you suddenly realize you've been thinking for 5 minutes, go back to the breath.

And then outside of your sits, spend 5-10 minutes a few times a day and look for the self like the rustling in the forest. Look for evidence of the self. Does it make decisions?

If a thought comes with an answer, label it 'thought' and look for something concrete. Thought is fantasy and never has the answer.

If you still get stuck in trying to think your way through this, then go back to simple labeling like we did in the first few days. As you go about your day, note seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling.

Be in the now, you could say :)

Let me summarize:

1. Sits - Switch to meditation on the breath only
2. Inquiry during the day - Rustling in the forest, where is the self? Forget thought completely.
3. Be in the now - see, hear, feel, taste, smell only.

Does the above make sense?

[gbeene]

Let me summarize:

1. Sits - Switch to meditation on the breath only
2. Inquiry during the day - Rustling in the forest, where is the self? Forget thought completely.
3. Be in the now - see, hear, feel, taste, smell only.

Does the above make sense?

Makes sense, totally. I have had a feeling that I started this very simply and am now feeling very complicated, so this is a good return to form.

[Bluejay]

Makes sense, totally. I have had a feeling that I started this very simply and am now feeling very complicated, so this is a good return to form.

Excellent. Yes, same here. :)

[gbeene]

Hey, posting an update as I am still here and working on this :)

The forest-looking image is a useful one. That kind of quiet intensity. I was amused looking at just sensations and thoughts as big categories...felt so "coarse" and simple compared to whatever I was doing.

I have been dealing with a cold so sits haven't felt very productive, but I've set a timer to remind me every hour to spend 5-10 minutes stopping and looking.

[Bluejay]

Thanks for the update!

That sounds great. Get well :)

[gbeene]

Hey, still here.

Couple things I've noticed over the last few days: focusing on not doing the inquiry via mental processes feels confusing/bad/there is a lot of resistance to it. I think it is a good sign that it's in the right direction as I would take that to mean the conceptual mind is struggling to let go / the looking is moving off the conceptual mind.

I am also coming to actual terms with having a video game addiction... I've tried cold turkey and going back but it's very much so the same pattern as when I was using alcohol. So the games have been taking priority to keep myself distracted and not dealing with aforementioned discomfort, so I'm going to go back cold turkey on them and use the space to focus on this work.

Just wanted to ping and say I'm still in it :)


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[Bluejay]

Couple things I've noticed over the last few days: focusing on not doing the inquiry via mental processes feels confusing/bad/there is a lot of resistance to it. I think it is a good sign that it's in the right direction as I would take that to mean the conceptual mind is struggling to let go / the looking is moving off the conceptual mind.

Definitely a good sign. Any landing in thought (confusion, this is bad, where's the ice cream) is a sign to return to the body.

I am also coming to actual terms with having a video game addiction... I've tried cold turkey and going back but it's very much so the same pattern as when I was using alcohol. So the games have been taking priority to keep myself distracted and not dealing with aforementioned discomfort, so I'm going to go back cold turkey on them and use the space to focus on this work.

Absolutely!

Something to remember is that it's fine to distract. As you go deeper into this, there will be a natural distaste of distraction, so it often will naturally fall away.

If cold turkey resonates the most right now, experiment with that and see what happens. Hold everything loosely, as the knots unwind themselves.

Just wanted to ping and say I'm still in it :)

Great :)

Keep me in the loop!

[gbeene]

Hey, good morning.

When doing the "rustling in the forest" looking, what has stood out for me the last couple days, is it feels like without thought saying "Ok and now is there the self in your arm? No. Ok and now is there self in your chest? No." that it feels like I don't know what I'm looking at or for. Like I'm staring wide eyed at a bunch of sensations... but for what? That might be thought sneaking in. Now that I'm typing this out I think that's doubt flavored thoughts coloring simple looking. Because my next thought is, "is just looking enough, or do I need to look with a lens of some sort? And how do you have a lens that isn't a thought?"

I might be answering my own concern here, lol.

Last night I took a long walk and tried staying with simple direct looking as frequently as possible, but thoughts always came in. I got annoyed, and I saw that I have a belief that "Thoughts are bad, and I need thoughts to stop happening to awaken." I kept trying to look at that belief and part of the problem is that any time I had a thought it felt like it generated the thing looking at the thought. And there is a belief that the watcher has to disappear for me to awaken.

Something to remember is that it's fine to distract. As you go deeper into this, there will be a natural distaste of distraction, so it often will naturally fall away.

Distraction might be a little different for an addict brain, but I hear what you're saying. Going cold turkey has been good the last couple of days. My personal time is feeling more free and accessible, whereas it was feeling like any use of my free time that wasn't gaming was a waste of time.


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