Requesting guidance

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

Yes, you're right. It is necessary to look until it is clear that 'experiencer' is an idea, no more.

If there seems to be one, track it down. If you give up and doubts remain the job isn't done. Actually it only need take a few moments. A willingness to look.


Jon

[Treelife]

Jon
Am I right in understanding that the job is to just look and see? Don't try and find that it is not there, don't try and convince myself that is it just the mind, just look and see and if I see/sense an experiencer then look more closely, explore and inquire - not try and fix it?

thanks
Mic

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

Yes you're right. In my eagerness to help I overstated it.

yes, absolutely. Just look.

Jon

[Treelife]

Hi Jon,
Ok got it.
when I get a moment I check in and seek an experiencer or experience. The 'sense' of an experiencer inferably relates to the mind, relates to desire, relates to assumptions of beliefs. Sometimes it melts, sometimes it sits there but with the knowing that it is just a thought process which can reduce the power of it (most common outcome), and other times my gaze cannot penetrate into it (usually when I am busy/distracted and my mind is being pulled away from the task).
One thing for sure is that I need to enter the process each time with the assumption of not knowing what the outcome will be, of genuinely seeking the answer and don't get pulled into making/seeking the politically correct answer. Genuinely seek to find what is there, not to find what I want to find.

Hectic weekend, will be stretched to put as much time into this as I want but will work on it as best I can.

Thanks Jon and Regards,
Mic

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

and other times my gaze cannot penetrate into it (usually when I am busy/distracted and my mind is being pulled away from the task).

Since we started our chat you have said this kind of thing many times, as if these moments are a complete impossibility. But why should they be?

I'm not saying these moments are particularly 'easy' either, just no less of a gift than all the other moments. Look at what it is that dismisses them.

Is it 'my gaze', by the way?

Jon

[Treelife]

Hi Jon

Since we started our chat you have said this kind of thing many times, as if these moments are a complete impossibility. But why should they be?

I'm not saying these moments are particularly 'easy' either, just no less of a gift than all the other moments. Look at what it is that dismisses them.

So feel the difficulty and do it anyway. Ok.

Been doing the seeking exercise over weekend (not as active as I'de like as also busy with a work project). The sense of experiencer is becoming more clearly related to thoughts, to mind. Seeing that it is a concept does not make the sense of experiencer disappear, but takes the edge of its power. The duality still exists.
I guess I just keep looking...?

Regards,
Mic

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

So feel the difficulty and do it anyway. Ok.

Explore the 'difficulty'. Find out what it is that 'has' the 'difficulty'. What does the difficulty feel like? And for whom or what?

What is the commentary 'saying' when attempting to explore this?

thanks,

Jon

[Treelife]

Hi Jon,

That was very helpful thank you.
When I ask the question, 'who is hearing that', 'who is experiencing this', 'is there an experiencer', I get strong sensations in my body (which leads on to an obvious question of who is feeling/receiving that sensation). The 'self' then presents as an idea, that's all, an idea.

Am experiencing more confidence to hold the gaze when getting stuck into activities. This is useful. In terms of doing the exercises the theme now is with everything, and every experience and every idea and every label to ask the question, 'who is experiencing.....?' Even questions like, who is making the writing on the computer? If frustrated with the speed of the internet then asking, who is experiencing frustration?
I don't think I have anything coming up between now and Christmas so hopefully get a good clear run at the UL work.

With Thanks,
Mic

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

That was very helpful thank you.
When I ask the question, 'who is hearing that', 'who is experiencing this', 'is there an experiencer', I get strong sensations in my body (which leads on to an obvious question of who is feeling/receiving that sensation). The 'self' then presents as an idea, that's all, an idea.

That's very good. If things seem to get more complicated than this, if it seems or feels that there is a self that is more real or substantial than this, look again in much the same way.

Am experiencing more confidence to hold the gaze when getting stuck into activities. This is useful. In terms of doing the exercises the theme now is with everything, and every experience and every idea and every label to ask the question, 'who is experiencing.....?' Even questions like, who is making the writing on the computer? If frustrated with the speed of the internet then asking, who is experiencing frustration?

That's great Mic. Perhaps it's only thought-story that this looking or noticing can only be done under 'auspicious' conditions?

What can happen, actually, is that holding the gaze becomes obsolete as it is noticed that effortless interest or fascination has taken over. Maybe look at this carefully. Whilst there is an assumed 'doer' or 'doing' of some kind of focused gazing it may seem that 'holding gaze' is done 'by me' and will fail if 'I don't make an effort'? But is it like this really? Look at the quality of this noticing.

love

Jon

[Treelife]

Hi Jon,

What can happen, actually, is that holding the gaze becomes obsolete as it is noticed that effortless interest or fascination has taken over. Maybe look at this carefully. Whilst there is an assumed 'doer' or 'doing' of some kind of focused gazing it may seem that 'holding gaze' is done 'by me' and will fail if 'I don't make an effort'? But is it like this really? Look at the quality of this noticing.

I think it is like this, the experience is that if there is no mental note to hold the gaze then the gaze is not happening. But leave this with me as what I am to do in terms of the exercise is just getting clearer.

...if it seems or feels that there is a self that is more real or substantial than this, look again in much the same way.

Sometimes my experience achieves this point, sometimes it does not.
I see that the key point is to see if there is a duality, duality between experience and anything else other than the experience. The duality is still there but when I look I am seeing it a lot of the time.

Will continue and see when it goes.

Thanks and Regards,
Mic

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic

. I think it is like this, the experience is that if there is no mental note to hold the gaze then the gaze is not happening. But leave this with me as what I am to do in terms of the exercise is just getting clearer.

Ok. Let me know how it goes?

Please read through our conversation from the beginning without missing any out and report back when you have done that.

Thank you

Jon

[Treelife]

Hi Jon,

Something has changed today. I was sitting the dichotomy outlined below and playing around with it, I had a VERY strange dream last night (well strange dreams all week) and then today I cannot seem to recognise anything that might substantiate a ‘self’ when I look. Things feel different, but is the most subtle way.
My dilemma yesterday was in trying to bridge these two positions [while simultaneously acknowledging there is no ‘I’ to bridgebuild]:

What can happen, actually, is that holding the gaze becomes obsolete as it is noticed that effortless interest or fascination has taken over. Maybe look at this carefully. Whilst there is an assumed 'doer' or 'doing' of some kind of focused gazing it may seem that 'holding gaze' is done 'by me' and will fail if 'I don't make an effort'? But is it like this really? Look at the quality of this noticing.

I think it is like this, the experience is that if there is no mental note to hold the gaze then the gaze is not happening. But leave this with me as what I am to do in terms of the exercise is just getting clearer.

In response I was messing around with something I found useful at other times in the inquiry process, I experimented with how far and how deep I look. Looking too far, too close, not close enough, too deep, [let me use the metaphor of the difference between long sighted and short sighted]. Then I woke up this morning and continue through the day and….hmmm….the duality seems to fold in on itself. I cannot say the duality is gone, nor can I say that is it is still there but things ‘I’ see, things ‘I’ touch, thoughts that ‘I’ think don’t seem to hold the same definite form or boundary they previously had yesterday. The thought of I is still there, but it is not so real, or it doesn’t ?matter?

I make no assumptions about any of this, maybe it is just tiredness getting the better of me but will continue to track it.
I have printed out the discourse from the last five months and plan to read them over the next few days.
With thanks and regards,
Mic

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

It sounds good.

Let me know how you get on, what you notice?

Thanks

Jon

[Treelife]

Hi Jon
I have made a decent start on reading through the past postings, it will take some time to finish it (I do not read quickly and reading time is limited). Having said that parts of it make for interesting reading.

Am continuing with checking in inquiries. The experience is less intense than it was earlier in the week, since I tweaked the lens. When I look I can find sensations and I can find mind, but there is no conviction that mind is 'self' - there may be a suggestion that mind is 'self' but no real conviction. My mind is telling me that there is no self but I wonder am I tricking myself? Or is it that I cannot find a self because I am not looking as closely or an intensely as I was earlier in the week - having tweaked the lens.

I may be again at the gate and if so this place if familiar to me, or I maybe be just telling myself that I am hear. When I look I cannot find a self/I but when I say the words 'there is no self', 'I do not exist', it catches in me.

Talk soon,

Mike

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

Its good that you have managed to read through part of our conversation.

When I look I can find sensations and I can find mind, but there is no conviction that mind is 'self'

How do you find mind? What does it look like? If it cannot be sensed how is it found?


Or is it that you think that mind must exist therefore it is found?



Jon