Guide to truth

[Prahathit]

Hi Kay,
Today I experimented with your suggestions.
I listened to sounds. The bird sound and then the label "Bird" and saw that the label has no relationship to the bird itself. There was only sound.
I listened to the sound so what I labeled "refrigerator" and later learned was a heater so there truly was no relationship between my thoughts about the sound and the sound itself. All there really was was sound.
I looked at objects. I could see the color and shape of the binoculars. There were also thoughts labeling the binoculars but when I looked with my eyes I could t see these thoughts or concepts. There was only shape and color.
I felt bodily sensations and noticed labels of pain or whatever. In the end there was only the sensation.
Love,
Carolyn

[forgetmenot]

Hi Carolyn!

Today I experimented with your suggestions.
I listened to sounds. The bird sound and then the label "Bird" and saw that the label has no relationship to the bird itself. There was only sound.
I listened to the sound so what I labeled "refrigerator" and later learned was a heater so there truly was no relationship between my thoughts about the sound and the sound itself. All there really was was sound.
I looked at objects. I could see the color and shape of the binoculars. There were also thoughts labeling the binoculars but when I looked with my eyes I could t see these thoughts or concepts. There was only shape and color.
I felt bodily sensations and noticed labels of pain or whatever. In the end there was only the sensation.

Really nice, Carolyn...fantastic LOOKING! Yes, there is no correlation between sound and label, or colour/shape and label and so on. It is only thought that says there is a correlation.

Okay...so let's start to have a LOOK at thought.

Here is a thought exercise. Sit for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

- Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
- Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
- Where are they coming from and going to?
- Can you predict your next thought?
- Can you push away any thought?
- Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
- Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
- Can you choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
- Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
- Is it possible to control any thoughts?
- Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?
- It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Look carefully when doing this exercise and do it several times if necessary. Please answer each question individually.

Love, Kay
xx

[Prahathit]

Hi Kay--

I did the 30 minutes of meditation.

- Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Absolutely not!
- Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? No!
- Where are they coming from and going to? From what I can tell, they come out of nowhere and go to nowhere.
- Can you predict your next thought? No
- Can you push away any thought? No
- Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts? No
- Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? No
- Can you choose not to have painful or negative thoughts? No
- Can you pick and choose any kind of thought? No
- Is it possible to control any thoughts? No-- I have been trying!
- Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'? No. Every morning I wake up with a strong thought of I. It comes automatically.
- It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? No sequence whatsoever. Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’? Just another thought that there is any sort of order.
I experienced thoughts of about 40 different topics, coming in and dancing around. Some thoughts were so strong they almost pulled me out of the meditation-- I am engaged in fierce resistance to Trump as is everyone I know.
Thanks for this very organized experiment. I'd been feeling the need to explore the nature of thought.
Love,
Carolyn

[forgetmenot]

Hi Carolyn, I would like you to answer each question individually please.

Love, Kay

[Prahathit]

Hi Kay
I don't see my response from yesterday here. Basically I said that I'm confused because I did answer the questions individually. Perhaps the one word answers - the NOs--got lost.
Love
Carolyn

[forgetmenot]

Hi Carolyn,

Yes, my apologies…I didn’t see your answers as there were no spaces between questions and your responses. If you could put a line space between questions and answers, that would be great :)

- Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

No. Every morning I wake up with a strong thought of I. It comes automatically.

Yes, so it has been seen clearly then, that thoughts just appear, including the thought “I” and there is no one who authors or controls thoughts?

I experienced thoughts of about 40 different topics, coming in and dancing around. Some thoughts were so strong they almost pulled me out of the meditation-- I am engaged in fierce resistance to Trump as is everyone I know.

Let's look at the concept of 'resistance'.

The label 'resistance' is the actual experience (AE) of thought and not the AE of resistance
The sensation labelled 'resistance' is the AE of sensation and not the AE of resistance
The image/colour labelled 'I/me/body' is the AE of colour and not the AE of a 'person resisting'.
The thoughts about 'resistance' are AE of thought and not the AE of resistance.

So, is there an actual experience of 'resistance' or what is actually appearing is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT resistance?

Thanks for this very organized experiment. I'd been feeling the need to explore the nature of thought.

So, let's look at thought a little more :)

Sit quietly somewhere and do the following exercise.

(1) Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.

(2) This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.

(3) Then wait for the next thought to come.

(4) When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.

(5) Then wait for the next thought to come.

(6) Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.

This is how to look at thoughts.
Looking how they come and go.
And observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.

Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Let me know how you go.

Love, Kay
xx

[Prahathit]

Hi Kay-- I'll try to make my answers easier for you to see.

Yes, so it has been seen clearly then, that thoughts just appear, including the thought “I” and there is no one who authors or controls thoughts?
____________________
Yes, I see that thoughts just appear and that no one authors or controls them.
_________________________________________

I am engaged in fierce resistance to Trump as is everyone I know.
______________________
I meant "resistance" more as a verb or a way to describe a political movement. But I do understand that resistance is a label, a concept, which has no reality. Like truth or mind, for example.
_________________________________
Let's look at the concept of 'resistance'.

The label 'resistance' is the actual experience (AE) of thought and not the AE of resistance
The sensation labelled 'resistance' is the AE of sensation and not the AE of resistance
The image/colour labelled 'I/me/body' is the AE of colour and not the AE of a 'person resisting'.
The thoughts about 'resistance' are AE of thought and not the AE of resistance.

So, is there an actual experience of 'resistance' or what is actually appearing is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT resistance?
______________________
There is no actual experience of resistance. It is thoughts and sensation. (Not sure where the color comes in.)
________________________________

This is how to look at thoughts.
Looking how they come and go.
And observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.

Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.
______________
I think you may have asked another question, but I don't see it in what I copied. I did the exercise of watching thoughts. I do know there are gaps as I've experienced them before. But this morning there were piles of thoughts, seeming to overlap. Sometimes it seemed like there was more than one thought at once. Very chaotic. I need to practice watching thoughts a lot more!
love,
Carolyn

[forgetmenot]

Hi Carolyn,

I'll try to make my answers easier for you to see.

Yes, this is much better, thank you :)

I am engaged in fierce resistance to Trump as is everyone I know.

I meant "resistance" more as a verb or a way to describe a political movement. But I do understand that resistance is a label, a concept, which has no reality. Like truth or mind, for example.

Yes, I know what you meant, however, can anyone be found that is in resistance to “Trump”?
When this “resistance to Trump” appears what is the actual experience in that moment?

So, is there an actual experience of 'resistance' or what is actually appearing is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT resistance?

There is no actual experience of resistance. It is thoughts and sensation. (Not sure where the color comes in.)

So how it is known that there is a ‘you’ that is being resistant?

I am going to assume that you are sitting in a chair reading this post. So become aware of ‘you’ in the chair. Now, close the eyes, does an image/outline of a ‘you sitting in a chair’ appear as a ‘mental’ image? That is what I mean when I am referring to colour here. When the story of a ‘resistant Carolyn’ appears, what ‘mental’ images appear?

Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

I think you may have asked another question, but I don't see it in what I copied. I did the exercise of watching thoughts. I do know there are gaps as I've experienced them before. But this morning there were piles of thoughts, seeming to overlap. Sometimes it seemed like there was more than one thought at once. Very chaotic. I need to practice watching thoughts a lot more!

Is there really a gap? How is it known that there is a gap between thoughts?
How is it known where one thought begins and another ends?

You didn't miss any questions :)

Love, Kay xx

[Prahathit]

Hi Kay,
Yes, I know what you meant, however, can anyone be found that is in resistance to “Trump”?
When this “resistance to Trump” appears what is the actual experience in that moment?

So, is there an actual experience of 'resistance' or what is actually appearing is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT resistance?


Hi Kay,

So how it is known that there is a ‘you’ that is being resistant?
________________
No "I" would be involved here. Just thoughts and bodily sensations.

I am going to assume that you are sitting in a chair reading this post. So become aware of ‘you’ in the chair. Now, close the eyes, does an image/outline of a ‘you sitting in a chair’ appear as a ‘mental’ image? That is what I mean when I am referring to colour here. When the story of a ‘resistant Carolyn’ appears, what ‘mental’ images appear?
___________________
The mental images would be color. At least, imaginary color.
___________________

Is there really a gap? How is it known that there is a gap between thoughts?
How is it known where one thought begins and another ends?
________________
I'm a little confused here because you told me there was a gap and that I should watch for it, even if it was subtle. Sometimes it's hard to know where one thought stops and another begins. Easier if the next thought is on another topic. I notice that thoughts don't normally just "pass through." There is a tendency to build mental images around some thoughts. And also to add more thoughts to them until there is a big hunk of imaginary world floating around.
love,
Carolyn

[forgetmenot]

Hi Carolyn,

Yes, I know what you meant, however, can anyone be found that is in resistance to “Trump”?
When this “resistance to Trump” appears what is the actual experience in that moment?

You never answered these questions, Carolyn, could you answer them for me please.

I am going to assume that you are sitting in a chair reading this post. So become aware of ‘you’ in the chair. Now, close the eyes, does an image/outline of a ‘you sitting in a chair’ appear as a ‘mental’ image? That is what I mean when I am referring to colour here. When the story of a ‘resistant Carolyn’ appears, what ‘mental’ images appear?

The mental images would be color. At least, imaginary color.

Why would ‘mental’ images be “imaginary colour”?
There is an assumption here, that ‘mental’ images are different to ‘visual images’.

Is there really a gap? How is it known that there is a gap between thoughts?
How is it known where one thought begins and another ends?

I'm a little confused here because you told me there was a gap and that I should watch for it, even if it was subtle.

I never told you there was a gap, I asked you to look for a gap!
How is it known that a gap has appeared?
Without thought saying “there is a gap here”, how would it be known as a gap?

Also, there is nothing missing ever. Space, gaps and distance are all concepts.
Can there actually be an empty space?

Experience is thoughtsensationsmelltastesoundcolour….is there anywhere that experience never is?

Sometimes it's hard to know where one thought stops and another begins. Easier if the next thought is on another topic. I notice that thoughts don't normally just "pass through." There is a tendency to build mental images around some thoughts. And also to add more thoughts to them until there is a big hunk of imaginary world floating around.

Thoughts are just thought.
Look carefully…how is it known that there are many different thoughts?
Are there many thoughts, or just thought?

Love, Kay

[Prahathit]

Hi Kay--

Yes, I know what you meant, however, can anyone be found that is in resistance to “Trump”?
When this “resistance to Trump” appears what is the actual experience in that moment?
____________________
Sorry I overlooked these questions. There is no one who is in resistance to Trump. The actual experience of resistance is thoughts/labels and bodily sensations.
__________________
So, is there an actual experience of 'resistance' or what is actually appearing is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT resistance?
_______________
Yes, this is what I experience about resistance-- thoughts and sensations. I'm guessing that by color you mean the mental images.

__________________________


So how it is known that there is a ‘you’ that is being resistant?
_________________________
It is known that there is no "I' that is being resistant because when I look with my eyes, I do not see a self.
______________________
When the story of a ‘resistant Carolyn’ appears, what ‘mental’ images appear?

_________________________
I don't find mental images. Just thoughts and sensations.
_________________________
Is there really a gap? How is it known that there is a gap between thoughts?
How is it known where one thought begins and another ends?
__________________________
The idea of a gap between thoughts is another thought. The idea of one thought ending and another beginning is just a thought.

I know you asked me more, but I don't see it in what I cut and pasted. I will go back and look and maybe send you another post.
love,
Carolyn

[Prahathit]

Hi Kay,
Yes-- there was more!

Why would ‘mental’ images be “imaginary colour”?
There is an assumption here, that ‘mental’ images are different to ‘visual images’.
____________________
I think I see what you're getting at here. The images "outside" and those "inside" are really not different. Is that right?

____________________________
Is there really a gap? How is it known that there is a gap between thoughts?
How is it known where one thought begins and another ends?
How is it known that a gap has appeared?
Without thought saying “there is a gap here”, how would it be known as a gap?
______________________
Only thought can think about gaps. Only thought can think about thoughts ending and beginning.

_____________________________

Also, there is nothing missing ever. Space, gaps and distance are all concepts.
Can there actually be an empty space?
__________________
Hmm... when I look with my eyes (like a baby) I don't see empty space.
_________________
Experience is thoughtsensationsmelltastesoundcolour….is there anywhere that experience never is?
_______________
No, there is nowhere, at any time, when that experience doesn't exist.

love,
Carolyn

[forgetmenot]

Hi Carolyn,

Yes, I know what you meant, however, can anyone be found that is in resistance to “Trump”?
When this “resistance to Trump” appears what is the actual experience in that moment?

There is no one who is in resistance to Trump. The actual experience of resistance is thoughts/labels and bodily sensations.

Yes, so when the concept of there being an “I” that is resistant appears (whether it to be Trump, or whatever) do you stop and actually LOOK at what can be 'resisting'?

Can colour 'resist' or know anything about 'resistance'?
Can sound 'resist' or know anything about 'resistance'?
Can thought 'resist' or know anything about 'resistance'?
Can sensation 'resist' or know anything about 'resistance'?
Can taste 'resist' or know anything about 'resistance'?
Can smell 'resist' or know anything about 'resistance'?

Nothing can be ‘resisting’ because there is *no one* who could resist! The story about resistance is appearing and is known, but it’s not happening to anyone! Is this clear?

So, is there an actual experience of 'resistance' or what is actually appearing is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT resistance?

Yes, this is what I experience about resistance-- thoughts and sensations.

Describe to me exactly, this “I” that can “experience resistance”?

Thought says the foot is ‘down there’. So presumably you are above your foot. Where are you? Sit quietly, close your eyes, take a few breaths and locate where you feel yourself to be. Locate yourself vertically in the body, horizontally to the left or right, and depth, how far in. Feel how big you are, where you reside. Then point with a finger to ‘you’. Open your eyes, where is your finger pointing?

I'm guessing that by color you mean the mental images.

I want you to sit in a chair, and then close the eyes and look.
Does not an image/outline of a 'you sitting in a chair' appear? Even when closing the eyes, an image of eyes appear!

So how it is known that there is a ‘you’ that is being resistant?

It is known that there is no "I' that is being resistant because when I look with my eyes, I do not see a self.

How is it known that the body's eyes see?
Can you find someone/something behind the eyes, witnessing them actually seeing?

When the story of a ‘resistant Carolyn’ appears, what ‘mental’ images appear?

I don't find mental images. Just thoughts and sensations.

Close the eyes and think of something that seemingly makes you angry/resistant...what 'mental' image appears?

Is there really a gap? How is it known that there is a gap between thoughts?
How is it known where one thought begins and another ends?

The idea of a gap between thoughts is another thought. The idea of one thought ending and another beginning is just a thought.

Yes! Nice looking!

Why would ‘mental’ images be “imaginary colour”?
There is an assumption here, that ‘mental’ images are different to ‘visual images’.

I think I see what you're getting at here. The images "outside" and those "inside" are really not different. Is that right?

Yes, exactly!

Is there an inside or an outside of the body?
If there is an inside; the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside; the outside of what exactly?

How is it known that a gap has appeared?
Without thought saying “there is a gap here”, how would it be known as a gap?

Only thought can think about gaps. Only thought can think about thoughts ending and beginning.

Yes! So are you beginning to see the nature of thought? Are you seeing how thought overlays experience with layers upon layers of stories?

Also, there is nothing missing ever. Space, gaps and distance are all concepts.
Can there actually be an empty space?

Hmm... when I look with my eyes (like a baby) I don't see empty space.

Great, so then are there actual objects of any kind?

Experience is thoughtsensationsmelltastesoundcolour….is there anywhere that experience never is?

No, there is nowhere, at any time, when that experience doesn't exist.

Lovely! :)

Love, Kay
xx

[Prahathit]

Hi Kay--
Lots of questions here! Very provocative.

Yes, so when the concept of there being an “I” that is resistant appears (whether it to be Trump, or whatever) do you stop and actually LOOK at what can be 'resisting'?
_________________
Up until now, I haven't looked...

_____________________
Can colour 'resist' or know anything about 'resistance'? no
Can sound 'resist' or know anything about 'resistance'? no
Can thought 'resist' or know anything about 'resistance'? NOT SURE
Can sensation 'resist' or know anything about 'resistance'? no
Can taste 'resist' or know anything about 'resistance'? no
Can smell 'resist' or know anything about 'resistance'? no
_____________________________________

Nothing can be ‘resisting’ because there is *no one* who could resist! The story about resistance is appearing and is known, but it’s not happening to anyone! Is this clear?
_________________________
It is getting more clear.

________________________

So, is there an actual experience of 'resistance' or what is actually appearing is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT resistance?

_________________
What is appearing has to be the labeling and sensation. Are you saying that color is the mental images?
____________________________



Describe to me exactly, this “I” that can “experience resistance”?
___________________________
When I look I don't see an "I." It can't be described.
____________________________

Thought says the foot is ‘down there’. So presumably you are above your foot. Where are you? Sit quietly, close your eyes, take a few breaths and locate where you feel yourself to be. Locate yourself vertically in the body, horizontally to the left or right, and depth, how far in. Feel how big you are, where you reside. Then point with a finger to ‘you’. Open your eyes, where is your finger pointing?

__________________
Finger is pointing to my forehead. "I" am about the size of a pound of butter.
____________________________________


I want you to sit in a chair, and then close the eyes and look.
Does not an image/outline of a 'you sitting in a chair' appear? Even when closing the eyes, an image of eyes appear!

__________________
Yes, an image of myself appears when I close my eyes.

______________________________________

How is it known that the body's eyes see?
__________________
This can't be known. It's an assumption.
___________________________
Can you find someone/something behind the eyes, witnessing them actually seeing?
_________________
No-- there is no proof that the eyes see. I cannot find anyone witnessing this.

__________________________

Close the eyes and think of something that seemingly makes you angry/resistant...what 'mental' image appears?
__________________________
Ha-- many mental images, one being Trump insulting your prime minister! I see the color orange.

________________________

Is there an inside or an outside of the body?
If there is an inside; the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside; the outside of what exactly?

________________
My husband just called me to go with him. I don't want to rush the answer to these questions. I will answer them later.
___________________________


So are you beginning to see the nature of thought? Are you seeing how thought overlays experience with layers upon layers of stories?
________________
Yes, I do see that thought overlays experience with layers of stories.
_________________________

Great, so then are there actual objects of any kind?
___________________
I will answer this later as well.
Carolyn

[forgetmenot]

Thanks Carolyn....I will wait until you have answered all the questions before I respond, so that they don't become split posts.

Love, Kay
xx