requesting a guide

[fgrimberg]

I guess I also unconsciously thought that it had to be more complicated than this. Like it would be too easy just to do it. Probably a result of all the spiritual literature that I've read. I don't know if this is right, but maybe somebody should hold a book-burning :)
I could hold the torch.
You could make guttural sounds over a loudspeaker.
We could all dress up in white ghost outfits and have a party. Mik Jagger (if he's still around) could sing kum-ba-ya.

[fgrimberg]

OMG I can't believe it's been almost a month. Seems like only a day has gone by. Or more like an hour. Weird........REALLY weird. Out of time? Is that what's responsible for this? Weirdest thing I've ever encountered. Well...almost. There was this one time when I lost a day. Seriously, like totally lost a day...and for no reason whatsoever. Like it had disappeared or something. I wasn't high or anything. THAT was the weirdest thing ever. This comes in a close second though.

[fgrimberg]

ONLY a month actually is weirder when you think about it.

[fgrimberg]

And btw how may people are on this forum anyway? Seems like it must be a lot. Or a little.

[fgrimberg]

I'm feeling quite a rush right now.

[fgrimberg]

I know you're going to ask me what happened as I saw through the self, or the events leading up to it, so I'll go ahead and speed up the process by telling you now.

Also, I was looking at a bush.

[fgrimberg]

You asked me "what's under the thoughts?" Well, I'm not sure what you meant, but I do know now that I am not JUST thought. I know that I am more than thought. Or that I'm NOT thought. I am beyond thought or before thought. But either way, I'm more than thought. It's like I have a new self today. I did experience a time of disorientation in the after noon, when I didn't have any coffee to drink. I also experienced a lot of bliss. Like where there was unhappiness before is now bliss, and what was empty is now full. Sometimes I still think a lot, but I don't let the thoughts run away with me, and states change just like you said. I've noticed that as long as I keep my purpose to "not letting thoughts run away with me," everything else takes it's place. Even if I'm being assaulted by thought, and they're very loud in my mind, I just make sure they're not running away with me and they pass. I think you'll be pleased to hear this. I've been having a really good time, mostly. I wonder if coffee is bad for me, but it doesn't seem to matter much since it's just a change of state. As long as my thoughts aren't running away with me I'm fine. This isn't really relevant, but I'm tired pretty much all of the time after about 10AM until I go to sleep, and I fall asleep many times during the day. I guess it is probably relevant to drinking so much coffee. But man, does it feel good :) Anyways, I'm not letting my thoughts run away with me and I think there's still more to come. Love you,

Felix

[nonaparry]

Dear Felix,

I'm reading your posts now… will reply shortly.

love
Nona

[nonaparry]

Dear Felix,

So the self is an illusion and I don't have to search anymore.
...
there is no self. What a wierd sensation.
…
I'm not chasing my thoughts around, and that's just happening. And nobody chose that I stopped it. But it happened, and I am, omg I really am. i am. I don't know what this means, but i am.

Nice work! And if you read through our entire conversation, you will notice that I regularly recommended you not chase thoughts.

I guess I also unconsciously thought that it had to be more complicated than this. Like it would be too easy just to do it. Probably a result of all the spiritual literature that I've read. I don't know if this is right, but maybe somebody should hold a book-burning :)

Indeed! Expectations of how it has to be are the biggest obstacles to seeing it!

I know you're going to ask me what happened as I saw through the self, or the events leading up to it, so I'll go ahead and speed up the process by telling you now. I realized there was nothing else to do. I had already done everything. And then I realized there is no self. It's like searching for a job until you've applied everywhere and you know there is no more jobs. Also, I was looking at a bush.

Thank you! Yes, I was going to ask that.

Sooooooo, what happens next? Got any clue? Maybe you can show me something else? isn't there an "outpatient treatment" or something?

What happens next is I after I look at some sticky places in your recent posts, I ask you the questions we ask of everyone who has seen through the illusion of a separate self. When your replies are clear, I will ask the other guides to read our conversation and ask any questions they still have. When they are satisfied, you will be invited to join our aftercare groups.

I can't find any proof that the content of my thoughts isn't real. I don't let them run away with me now, but they're still there, and seem pretty convincing. I can deny them, but what if I'm denying the truth? There seems to be evidence that what I'm thinking is true. Overwhelming evidence.

How do I know what's real and what isn't? Not letting my thoughts run away with me is all well and fine, but there's no certainty that what I'm experiencing is real. And that my thinking isn't. "It's not real" is just another thought. I can't tell with certainty what's real and what isn't, I can only form an opinion. I can say "this one is real" or "the other one is real" but I can't know for sure. Like you said, the senses lie, so how are they any more dependable than thoughts?

The senses can lie, but are fairly reliable. Thoughts are always liars.
The content of any thought is imaginary. Check it!
Think of a cup. Get a clear picture of the cup in the mind. See its size, shape, colour, its decorations — whether or not it has a handle… When you have it clearly, answer these:
Can you pour actual liquid into the image you see of a cup?
Can you actually drink from it?
It's an image — it's imaginary.
We know we have thoughts… we notice them arise. That thoughts happen is indisputable — we notice them in awareness. BUT the content of every thought is as imaginary as the image of a cup you just had.
Thoughts are always about something — they never are the something that they are about. Like the map and the territory. A map is an image of the territory — it isn't the actual physical territory.

I feel the anger building. Everywhere I go I get angry. Don't know why. I'm even angry right now. For no reason that I can see. Do you think I'll always be this angry? Right, you don't know. I can see that there's no reason to be this angry. But the anger is always there, and I'm afraid it'll take me over again. And also, don't you think something needs to be done about it? I don't want to feel anger for the rest of my life. It's not really passing. It just sits there, being angry. And I'm afraid of it taking me over and controlling my thinking. Is that what's "under" the thoughts? Anger?

No; anger is an habitual response to wanting Life to be different from how it currently IS. Anger gives the illusion that we are somehow in control of the situation — but we are not.
Just as we have no separate entity "self" that does actions, we have no control over what happens in Life. Really. If we did have control, everything would always go our way!
Believing we do have, or should have control when we don't brings suffering in the form of anger.
Is there any event in Life over which you believe you have control? If yes, how exactly does that work?

It seems to me there is only darkness in senses. It's like I'm in the dark, and can't perceive the light. The senses are "dark' senses. Everything seems really dark, like I can't see.
I don't see the light anywhere.

Then open the eyes!! There is light everywhere you look! Perception is the thoughts that occur after sensation — focus on the sensation of seeing, and see the light!

You asked me "what's under the thoughts?" Well, I'm not sure what you meant, but I do know now that I am not JUST thought. I know that I am more than thought. Or that I'm NOT thought. I am beyond thought or before thought. But either way, I'm more than thought. It's like I have a new self today.

A new actual self? Or new thoughts about Life?
What I meant by "what's under the thoughts?" is without thoughts about something, what is actually there? For example, if you place your hands on the desk or table and close the eyes, what are the sensations of the hands on the surface? Without the thought "table" or "desk", there is only sensation: temperature, hardness, smoothness.

I also experienced a lot of bliss. Like where there was unhappiness before is now bliss, and what was empty is now full. Sometimes I still think a lot, but I don't let the thoughts run away with me, and states change just like you said. I've noticed that as long as I keep my purpose to "not letting thoughts run away with me," everything else takes it's place. Even if I'm being assaulted by thought, and they're very loud in my mind, I just make sure they're not running away with me and they pass. I think you'll be pleased to hear this.

I don't much care whether you experience bliss or anger as long as you guard against getting lost in thought. And isn't it awesome how, when you don't let thoughts run away with you, they pass? I find that very helpful.

Emotions will continue to arise, just as thoughts do. Anger, frustration, irritation, as well as joy, pleasure, and happiness — they are ALL an integral part of this movement of Life! When the sages say This is IT, they meant ALL of it, the "good" and the "bad", the wanted and the unwanted. And the more you can go with the flow of Life, the less you will suffer. All the habits of a lifetime are still there — you can believe the thoughts as they come up, or you can question them.

Here are the questions I wrote about above. Please answer in detail from your experience right now.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

With much love,
Nona

[fgrimberg]

Is there any event in Life over which you believe you have control? If yes, how exactly does that work?

Ok, being totally honest here, finding a job. I know that if I keep looking, I'm bound to get hired. I know this because it's happened many times before. There's no guarantee that I can keep it, but I know that I can drop off my resume off at a million places and I'm bound to get a hit. That's how social media works, they spam the internet to as many people that they can, knowing that the more they send out the more hits they'll get. There's no guarantee that their actions will lead to anything, but they can generate hits that way. The same way I can generate employment.

That being said, there are always other factors at work. Like the interview process, etc etc. So I don't have control, life has control over that. Life has control over whether I drop my resume off at enough places, or whether I drop my resume off at all. But I do know that putting dropping off my resume at enough places is guaranteed to give me employment. There are so many places, and basically an infinite number of chances, that the probability of it not happening is close to nil.

A new actual self? Or new thoughts about Life?
What I meant by "what's under the thoughts?" is without thoughts about something, what is actually there? For example, if you place your hands on the desk or table and close the eyes, what are the sensations of the hands on the surface? Without the thought "table" or "desk", there is only sensation: temperature, hardness, smoothness.

The interpretation is that I have a new self. I don't know about the rest. I know that I feel bliss in between thoughts and clusters of thinking. I had a thought today "I'm not really a good fighter, I'm ok, etc etc" and for the first time I realized that I don't have to I-dentify with the thought. It's just a thought, and I don't have to I-dentify with it. Then I had another thought "I want to puke" and again I realized the same thing. This is what's actually happening. In REAL life. That's the best I can say about that. If you want me to answer your question more specifically, you'll have to ask, because I have a really hard time with your questions and they're very difficult. Not that I mind answering them.

I don't have new thoughts about life. Life is as it is, but my SELF is the source of all salvation. Whether it was there before or not doesn't matter. Before I had thoughts about it, and I experienced those thoughts. Now that I experience the self, it brings me endless joy, because it's not thought, whatever it is. I still have moments of when it's like I'm detaching from old thought processes. Like it's there and then I detach after it. There's a time delay here too. I would say a few seconds at most.

I don't have any new thoughts about life.

I don't know what you mean by "actual" self. If you mean a self that acts, then no. It doesn't act. It's just there for me to enjoy. It's who I am.

I don't know what you're talking about "under the thoughts." There is sensation, but it's not under the thoughts. It exists wherever it exists, and it's not for me to say where that is. It is in space I think, but I really don't know.

I like it that you told me finally about WHY thoughts are always liars. They're liars because their content is content. Not because they have any ulterior motive. They're not standing there with pitchforks in the shadows waiting to carve out my organs. They're just naturally ephemeral. Plus, if thought didn't have the quality of disappearing immediately afterward It appeared then there wouldn't be any problem with mind-identification. The only reason the mind has to keep running and running is because thoughts ARE ephemeral. Therein lies the difficulty of being identified with things. You never told me that before. Shame on you! :) I'm only kidding of course.

I don't much care whether you experience bliss or anger as long as you guard against getting lost in thought. And isn't it awesome how, when you don't let thoughts run away with you, they pass? I find that very helpful.

You bloody minx you. Yes, it is awesome. It's the most awesome thing in the world, compared to everything else I've experienced.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there is no separate entity me or self or anything like that, or I, or this, or that, or where or there or why or any of those and so on and so forth. No and there never was. it was all an illusion of the self. the self that was made up by the mind in the FORM of language. The FORM of language is what made it up, not language itself. Because language takes a certain form, it contains certain implications, We could come up with a completely new language that didn't incorporate seperate entities into it's (syntax or grammar?) I always get the two confused. Then again, maybe it's impossible to create a language like that. Maybe language implies separating life into pieces. I'm not sure, honestly.

Was there ever an "I?" No, there couldn't have been.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The "I" is a word. It begins as a word. The word I. That's its first form. As "I" the word. Then it grows. It grows into "I am this" or "I am that." Then I (or maybe before) turns into a name. The name replaces the I, but the I is still there under the name. In fact, the I is stronger than the name that superimposes it. Even if the name is seen through, the I is much more opaque, much more firm, like stone, it remains under the name. This makes it seem like it's not a word at all, like it's a real solid object. But it's not in reality. That's why it's so hard to find (or not find). It's sooooooo solid that you actually do have to look for it. We percieve it in the same way we percieve a rock or a suitcase, until we find with disappointment that it was never a real existential entity to begin with. This brings the destruction of language. I may end up stuttering if this continues.
(By destruction of language I mean the loss of faith that language is a reliable part of life.) If the I isn't real, what else might not be? Is my bag real? It's a real entity in the real world, yes. But the word bag isn't. It's just a word! Oh, what bliss this is! (Oh yeah, I forgot, you don't care :) Forget about it then.
OK, so where was I? Oh yeah. So the I is a solid object to the mind. BUT! and this is the biggest BUTT!!!! Bigger than Queen Latifah's:
IT'S NOT SOLID AT ALL! Not in the sense of hardness, but in the sense of it's relative permanence. I is just identification with thought. And since thought's blink into existence, it's impossible to hold on to one. So the harder you try to hold on, the more difficult it becomes. You're constantly losing yourself every second of every day, and (ok this part coming up is just a theory) this sense of impermanence becomes part of your sense of self. Because what you are (thought) disappears immediately after it appears, you have this feeling of death coming and going. That's the best I can describe it. If you are thought, and thought is the way it is (as I elaborately described above) that would have to mean that your existence is just as transient and impermanent as thought. By the way, did I ever mention that you're no fun? :)

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Errrr...that's a weird question. I don't know. It doesn't feel good. But I feel good. I feel good knowing that I am before thought, and that whatever comes passes almost immediately. By almost immediately I mean it never lasts longer than a few hours, and usually no longer than a couple seconds. And btw that's also the difference before we started this dialogue. I had thoughts before, but I mistook them for reality. Now I know what it's like to not chase them. That's all. In truth, that's really the only real difference.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

When you said that maybe this forum isn't good for me, you bloody minx you. I knew then that the last thing I had tried wasn't working either, so I stopped chasing my thoughts. Didn't know what you meant by chasing my thoughts until then, as I already explained several times but you didn't understand me. I hope you understand me now, scratch that, it doesn't matter. I do like this dialogue very much, and I'm happy to have met you over the internet.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Decision is an illusion. It comes from evaluation. You think you're making a decision, but you're just weighing stuff with your brain. Intention is an afterthought. Free will doesn't exist. Choice exists, but I don't really understand it. Control is tricky, because you would have to define control. Ultimately[i/] you don't have control because you can't control the details, but you and I are smart enough to deduce that one thing leads to another, and that crashing into another vehicle while you're drunk will likely land you in prison. So knowing this, there is no control. You can only hope you don't drive drunk. Don't know what to make of this. It seems to exist, but I know that it actually doesn't. So it actually doesn't. Oh! I see. It's all in the mind. 'Nuf said?

Nothing makes things happen. I'm not even sure if they happen, or they don't. I don't even know how to think about that question. Nothing makes things happen.

I ain't responsible for nuthin'.

Examples from experience, huh? Well, this morning I was going to go to Starbucks, and then I had that couple of moments where I went "these are just thoughts I don't have to identify with" and then I didn't want to go to starbucks, and I had a bit of trouble because I didn't know what to do. I didn't want to sit outside in the scorching heat, but I didn't want to go to starbucks either. After I got to starbucks I realized that I had simply judged the situation and that was all, and I'm very very happy to be in starbucks right now. I had an expectation of what it would be like to be in starbucks, and the mind lied to me mercilessly. it had no basis in reality to say what it did about what starbucks would be like. and i believed it completely. but I didn't get lost in my thoughts. and it turned out pretty awesome.

6) you should be more compassionate.

With much love,
Felix

[fgrimberg]

yes, there is something I want to add:

6) What really blows my mind is that nothing is changed, it's absolutely crazy. I was suffering for nothing. It's so stupid, I never could have done anything differently, and thinking that I could have caused me all sorts of pain. It's stupid beyond belief. I can't control my actions..............................................................................................

[fgrimberg]

or anything for that matter

[fgrimberg]

It's raining on prom night

[fgrimberg]

Ok, here it is: I've lost the illusion of control. That's what happened.

[fgrimberg]

That's what you were trying to say, huh?