Male from Finland

[graceabounds]

Good. And yes. No need to call it success or failure. Just what is as it is. The mind wants to label, categorize, and judge—“progress” or “regression,” “success” or “failure.” But all of that is just more thought, isn’t it?

There is no one driving this train, and it is already here sitting at the station.
:)

[graceabounds]

Just checking in to see how everything has been unfolding…

Becca

[Tuoli]

Hi Becca!

In my last communication there was no resistance to what is and therefore no seeking also. Something had happened when I had the deep looking experience in the assignment before the people quest:

When experiencing was in the point of experience, the looking went to examine the point of experiencing itself. The point of experience has been the anchor this whole time. As it was seen just as an experience also, there was quite a lot of releasing experienced. It was kind of shift but there was no time for integration that was felt beneficial but I had to go to work.

Day was joyful and next one too without borders in experience. Fast forwarding to this sunday, I was doing the looking of this point of experience again when I got your email alert. The point is back and so is resistance to what is. There's boredom and other unpleasant emotions and encompaning thoughts.

To the people quest:

So what’s happening there? What changes?

Right now, look directly: When you’re engaged with others, where is this you that feels limited? Can you find it? Or is there just sensation, thought, and response appearing spontaneously?

Even without direct engagement, for example in traffic with cars or reading emails, sensations, thoughts, and responses are appearing spontaneously.

Drop the story in real time, right there in the moment of contraction with another person. See what remains. What is left without the narrative? What happens to limitation when there is no reference point?

With this I haven't been successful. There seems to be too much reactivity on autopilot in this point of reference for this type of excercise to be successful.

[graceabounds]

Great. You saw the point of experience is just another experience! But then the story comes back in... in a subtle way... that there is something to integrate, and resistance creeps back in.

It is like (perhaps) when you learned to ride a bicycle. At first, you couldn't ride it. Then, there a was a moment when you suddenly succeeded in riding it. Then for the first two or three rides it might have been a bit awkward. Then, it becomes so natural that you don't care about how to ride it anymore. You simply ride it, and it's indeed simple!

Let's try something...

Close your eyes. Get really settled into this point of experience. The sensation of it.
Open your eyes and look at something outside the window. A tree, a building. Take some time to notice that object.
Imagine yourself 'there' at the object. From there, look back at your body. What do you notice? Can a point of experience be located?

[Tuoli]

Hello,

Close your eyes. Get really settled into this point of experience. The sensation of it.
Open your eyes and look at something outside the window. A tree, a building. Take some time to notice that object.
Imagine yourself 'there' at the object. From there, look back at your body. What do you notice? Can a point of experience be located?

No. On a side note during the decades of searching, all kinds of visulation tasks has been challenging and so was this one. I have very hard time of imagining looking back from a place where the point is not. Probably couldn't do it as it was intended...

[graceabounds]

Hi Esa,

No problem. That particular exercise is hit or miss but it works well for those it works for! We press on… :)

Here’s an exercise that does not rely on mental imagery:

1. Take a cup and place it in front of you.

2. Look at the cup, but be aware of what thoughts are saying about what you see.

3. Investigate the process of seeing.
Are you looking for something, or simply looking?
When seeing is happening, is there a separate “seer” and “seen”?
Try to find the exact moment when “cup” becomes a mental label rather than a direct experience.

4. Focus on raw perception (colors, textures, shapes).
Notice how subtle and complex these details are—far beyond simple labels.
Then, ask yourself: “Who is seeing?” What happens to the seeing when you ask this?
Is a point of experience distinguishable?

5. Return to direct seeing and ask: “What is being seen?”
Does a “cup” exist in raw perception, or just color and shape?
Are you directly experiencing it, or just mentally constructing a meaning based on memory?
Can you find an actual boundary where “you” stop and “the object” begins, or is that also an assumption?

-Becca

[Tuoli]

Hi!

1. Take a cup and place it in front of you.

2. Look at the cup, but be aware of what thoughts are saying about what you see.

3. Investigate the process of seeing.
Are you looking for something, or simply looking?
When seeing is happening, is there a separate “seer” and “seen”?
Try to find the exact moment when “cup” becomes a mental label rather than a direct experience.

I started looking at souvenir mug from Hong Kong. It was half full of water and I could crab the handle and drink the water. I'm looking at the mug, that is the starting point.

It's made of shapes that together are interpreted as mug automatically. It's very useful way of seeing as there's no need for actively thinking which shape to grab to get a drink. This type of seeing is happening automatically too. It's not doing but focusing to cup is. Focusing is instigated by your questions. It's not something that someone is doing. However on second day of looking at the cup, it's still there and I'm looking at it here even the cup is seen made of shapes and colors.

4. Focus on raw perception (colors, textures, shapes).
Notice how subtle and complex these details are—far beyond simple labels.
Then, ask yourself: “Who is seeing?” What happens to the seeing when you ask this?
Is a point of experience distinguishable?

I cannot answer. Only that point is not distinguishable.

5. Return to direct seeing and ask: “What is being seen?”
Does a “cup” exist in raw perception, or just color and shape?Are you directly experiencing it, or just mentally constructing a meaning based on memory?
Can you find an actual boundary where “you” stop and “the object” begins, or is that also an assumption?

It's color and shape.

Cup is a learned generalization of bundle of shapes. It comes from memory. There's no actual boundary. It's kind of one experience.

[graceabounds]

Yes. The cup, as a separate thing, was never there—just color, shape, and a learned mental overlay of “cup.”

Now, take this same seeing and apply it to you.

Close your eyes. Without visual input, what is left? Sensations, sounds, maybe thoughts.

Where is the boundary between “you” and “everything else”?

Is there a you apart from a collection of sensations and thoughts, just like the cup was nothing but colors and shapes? Or is “you” also just a mental construct—an automatic interpretation like “cup”?

Look now. Not conceptually. Right here, right now. What is “you” in direct experience?

[Tuoli]

Namaste,

Where is the boundary between “you” and “everything else”?

Boundary cannot be found.

Is there a you apart from a collection of sensations and thoughts, just like the cup was nothing but colors and shapes? Or is “you” also just a mental construct—an automatic interpretation like “cup”?

Nothing that is not senses, thoughts and memories cannot be found. Them and body together are automatically intepeted as me experiencing the world outside.

Look now. Not conceptually. Right here, right now. What is “you” in direct experience?

Experiencing happening

[graceabounds]

Yes. Just experiencing happening. No boundary, no separate “you” apart from this flow of sensations, thoughts, and perceptions. The idea of a distinct self is just another mental construct—like labeling colors and shapes as “cup.”

Now, does this experiencing need an owner? Or is the sense of ownership just another thought arising within experience?

Nothing that is not senses, thoughts and memories cannot be found.

Memories—just thoughts appearing now.
Can you find a past outside of this present thought about it? Or is the “past” just another appearance, like a ripple in a stream, happening here and now?

And if there is no past outside of this present thought, what does that say about the “me” that supposedly traveled through time?

Namaste.

[Tuoli]

Hello,

Now, does this experiencing need an owner? Or is the sense of ownership just another thought arising within experience?

There's no owner here, but there's here. Here can go too as an experience.

Memories—just thoughts appearing now.
Can you find a past outside of this present thought about it? Or is the “past” just another appearance, like a ripple in a stream, happening here and now?

There's strongly believed thought that past is real because of the evidence. For example I have a souvenir cup on table from Hong Kong. As it's from there, trip to there has happened in the past even now memories from there are thoughts happening now.

Yesterday I made starter dough for Napolitan pizza. Today I finished the poolish dough. Doesn't the dough like experiencing here has a history? How experiencing ended experiencing here and not there or anywhere else...

And if there is no past outside of this present thought, what does that say about the “me” that supposedly traveled through time?

There are many activities done now for the future based on past actions. I'm letting the dough rise now so I can make pizza in the future. These are all thoughts happening now but like dough developing into to pizza, sense of self can develop to something else that can be more real. It is the goal with this activity done now.

This all can (and will) happen without me even the case for me developing thru time can be very compelling as there are physical evidence of the past like mess from making the dough. The mess of turning sense of self into something else can be seen here in the past 14 pages...

But to answer your guestion, it's dream like. Like a character experienced in a dream.

[graceabounds]

Yes, it’s dreamlike—just like a character experienced in a dream. There’s no past outside of the present thought about it, just as there’s no future outside of the present anticipation of it. The past is only “real” as a present appearance, a ripple in the stream of experiencing. The evidence of a past—souvenirs, dough rising, mess from previous actions—are all happening now.

Where is that ‘me’ who travels through time outside of thoughts appearing now? The sense of continuity, of “I” moving through time, is just another arising—no different than the rising dough. The story of self unfolds just like the story of pizza-making: a process with no inherent owner, just happenings.

If there’s no past outside of thought, and no separate self outside of thought, what’s left? Just this. Always just this.

These are all thoughts happening now but like dough developing into to pizza, sense of self can develop to something else that can be more real. It is the goal with this activity done now.

Dough rises without a doer. Pizza gets made without a controller. The sense of self “developing into something more real” is just another thought pattern appearing now. Who is developing? Where is this future self outside of imagination?

What happens when there’s no need for this moment to lead anywhere?

[Tuoli]

Hi!

Dough rises without a doer. Pizza gets made without a controller. The sense of self “developing into something more real” is just another thought pattern appearing now. Who is developing? Where is this future self outside of imagination?

There's no need for self in sense of self developing into something else. I wrote that "sense of self can develop to something else that can be more real. It is the goal with this activity done now." There isn't, never was and never will be a separate self but there can be story about the self and it can develop to something else.

Currently there's probably just momentum of conditioning that started after birth left and point of experience here. Story of self doing something like mistakes or good food are activated especially in interactions with people, - thoughts and emotions following each other.

What happens when there’s no need for this moment to lead anywhere?

Now gets accepted and experienced.

[graceabounds]

There isn't, never was and never will be a separate self but there can be story about the self and it can develop to something else.

Currently there's probably just momentum of conditioning that started after birth left and point of experience here. Story of self doing something like mistakes or good food are activated especially in interactions with people, - thoughts and emotions following each other

Ah yes. It is all a story, different pieces of story but still story. Clear seeing through the self illusion is the beginning of the clean up process. Of looking at each of the stories as they arise.

Is there anything particularly sticky that is arising that seems ripe to explore now in this space?

[Tuoli]

Hi Becca,

All I can think of is thinking itself. Living in thoughts mostly...Otherwise it's peachy.