Getting closer ...

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Chris1001
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:42 am

Hi Vivien
Can you say that there was a shift from intellectual understanding to an experiential one at that day?
This was one of the days when a shift happened, yes. But there were other days too. Like the post on page 11 where you asked me to describe in my own words the illusion of the separate self. There was a big shift on that day also.
And how does it FEEL now to see that the self is just an illusion and not something factual?
Are you asking about in general? Or are you asking me to Look in the Now what is there in terms of 'feeling', i.e. describing sensations etc?
Could you be a bit more specific?

Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Vivien » Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:37 am

Hi Chris,
This was one of the days when a shift happened, yes. But there were other days too. Like the post on page 11 where you asked me to describe in my own words the illusion of the separate self. There was a big shift on that day also.
Great :)
V: And how does it FEEL now to see that the self is just an illusion and not something factual?
C: Are you asking about in general? Or are you asking me to Look in the Now what is there in terms of 'feeling', i.e. describing sensations etc?
Could you be a bit more specific?
Yes, I’m asking it generally this time. You don’t have to look for this :)

So you believed that there was a self in your whole life, governing life, with free will, with desires, etc, and as the result of this looking you’ve discovered that this self has never ever been actually there. Right?

So I’m asking, how does it feel to see or to discover that the self has always been just an illusion, just an imagination, but never an actual reality?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Chris1001
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:35 am

Hi Vivien
So you believed that there was a self in your whole life, governing life, with free will, with desires, etc, and as the result of this looking you’ve discovered that this self has never ever been actually there. Right?

So I’m asking, how does it feel to see or to discover that the self has always been just an illusion, just an imagination, but never an actual reality?
It can feel like a relief to have finally cracked the secret. And there is a sense of achievement that comes with that.
There can at times be an emptiness or peace that's present also. And a quieter mind which has the effect of less anxiousness/fear, less drama. There is therefore more relaxation and it feels quite pleasant most of the time. In place of seeking, there is just the knowledge that I can Look in the Now and find peace there.

Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Vivien » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:01 am

Hi Chris,

Thank you for your sharing. Are you ready to the final questions that we ask at the end of each thread?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Chris1001
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:14 am

Hi Vivien

Yes, I am ready :)

Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Vivien » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:32 am

Hi Chris,

Please answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Chris1001
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:36 am

Hi Vivien

As with the last question you gave me, I am working on the assumption that these questions are more general, rather than a specific request to Look in the Now.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
No there isn't a separate self, me, I...in any form. And there never has been. It is an (extremely intricate) illusion, and always has been.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.
During this investigation I have described the illusion by talking a lot about sensations and thoughts. But in my current experience I tend to look simply at Time and can see quite easily how the self-story uses Time in order to 'exist'. And Time does not exist in real, actual, direct experience at all. It is imagined. And so with Time being seen to be just illusion, the self-story begins to fall away. Without Time being real, it cannot exist as real either.

Thoughts about the story of 'me' start up, and are quickly seen to be about someplace other than the Now, and then they taper off....

There is just Here. Now. And anything else is just imagination/illusion and not real/solid.

For me the illusion was strong, and it took some pretty intricate Looking to be able to See thru'. The thought stories would combine with strong bodily sensations to make the illusion seem very real. In particular, there were some sensation/thought combinations surrounding the face. Visual imagery of various parts of the face - the eyes, and the jawline - together with sensations around those body parts, all appearing in quick succession. These kinds of thought/sensation combinations had been associated with being a central part of 'who I am'. My very 'essence' if you will.

Another aspect which makes the illusion hard to See thru' is the tendency of resistance towards anything simple. And 'What Is' in the Now is extremely simple. So the thoughts tend to run and run - making everything over-complicated. Just by Looking, in the Now....a 'self' cannot be found. A 'doer' cannot be found. Nor can a 'controller'. All just thoughts and sensations, or more accurately, combinations of thought and sensation.

These combinations would also present to form illusion around separation with 'outer world'. For example, when sitting in a room, with various objects around the room, there would be sensations delineating the edge of the table, combined with sensations delineating the face - eyes and jawline etc - together with a thought-story of Me 'over here' and Object 'over there'.

Even with this kind of subject-object illusion Seen thru', there was still some struggle around expectation of somehow 'merging' with all these objects, in some kind of magical 'State'. But all that was required was to Look and not see/find separation. Simple. There was no need to find a 'merging/oneness' state.

It was the expectation of some extremely 'special' magic sensations arising. And this was perhaps the final part of the illusion that needed to be cracked.

It is hard to talk about when the illusion started. One can only speculate. In the womb, or at birth? Or when the first sense of body consciousness began to arise as a baby. Or later...when 'I' was given a name. I have to be honest and say I don't know exactly when it started.
3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It can sometimes feel like relief, and sometimes a little strange. Often there is a sense of peace and ease...and less anxiousness/worry than there was before. It seems there are less thoughts and sensations present now than there were before (and even during) this investigation. And so in a way there is less that needs to be Looked at. It can be said that there has been a general falling away of thought and sensation, to a certain degree...and with this there is a new relationship forming with the Now. Thought-stories about the 'me' start up...and are soon enough seen to be imaginary and something to do with anything-but-the-Here-Now....and then they just kinda taper off...

In another sense, life goes on, and not all that much has changed. To most outsiders, nothing has changed. And it is really only those who are very close to me, that notice any kind of change in me.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
There wasn't one single 'last bit' as such. Rather, there were several bits. One of them was definitely the repeated Looking at the thought/sensation combinations that arose, in detail. Just Looking intricately and vigilantly, again and again. Particularly the sensations combined with visual imagery delineating the face and jawline that I mentioned previously. This was something which had been considered to be at the core of 'my identity', and to see thru' that as illusion was a significant Seeing.

Furthermore, when I was asked for the first time to describe the illusion in my own words. This was a big moment. I was surprised to see what I'd written down on the page, and I realised I had a basic but nevertheless comprehensive overview of the whole thing. With that, there was a significant falling away of Seeking as I realised all I had to do was just keep on Looking as I had been and that was all that was needed.

The very last bit was the pointer of Seeing that there was expectation of some magical Oneness state, and that this was also part of the illusion. It was understood that this investigation was more about the absence of something (i.e. the illusion of separation) rather than a new presence of something (i.e. 'magical' Oneness sensation).
5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
All is happening on autopilot, and with less thoughts and sensations present, this can be seen to be just Life unfolding in each Now moment. I can't really say exactly how it works or what kind of ultimate intelligence there is. It is more about Seeing What It Is Not than figuring out What It All Is. And that's fine with me.

Decision, intention, free-will, choice and control are illusory, and cannot be found when actually Looking. There are intricate combinations of thought and sensation, which can bring about the illusion. However, when Looked at simply, it can be seen that these things happen automatically.
b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
There isn't an 'I' that is responsible for Life. In my own recent experiences there has been some anger for example: So, I see a thought-story arising which tries to lay blame for this anger upon 'me', combined with physical contraction-sensation. It is quickly seen to be just thought-story and not real...running a story about a 'me' being 'responsible'.

During the investigation I struggled a bit with this aspect of Seeing reality, as there were some fears that without a 'controller', there wouldn't be anything to control my anger, and it might fly completely out of control - venting my 'stuff' over all and sundry. But what I actually find now, is that without the 'me' story, the anger passes more quickly and balance is restored. And soon enough, I am in a mood to make peace with the person I have experienced anger with. Ironically, by Seeing thru' the illusion of a 'controller'...things are more under control.
6) Anything to add?
Oh yes, a little question for you, Vivien: I was curious around why you chose to take up my thread. Was there anything in particular that drew you to me, or do you just pick people at random? Also, did you get a sense at some point that I would make it this far? Can you tell early-on the ones that will make it and the ones that will fall by the wayside? (Sorry if these are a bit cheeky, but my ego wants to know - lol).

And massive gratitude to you once again Vivien, for all the incredible hard work. Much love to you :)

I welcome any further questions you, or any of the other guides may have around my write-up here.

Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Vivien » Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:39 am

Hi Chris,

Thank you for your beautiful replies :)
Oh yes, a little question for you, Vivien: I was curious around why you chose to take up my thread. Was there anything in particular that drew you to me, or do you just pick people at random?
I chose you because you talked about the fear of abandonment, and I knew that I can stick with you as long as you need it.
Also, did you get a sense at some point that I would make it this far? Can you tell early-on the ones that will make it and the ones that will fall by the wayside?
No, I cannot tell it at the beginning, since it’s totally up to you. It’s about your willingness to look honestly what you did beautifully.
And massive gratitude to you once again Vivien, for all the incredible hard work. Much love to you :)
You are most welcome :)

I am going to get other guides to have a look at the thread to ensure that I have covered everything and that my pointing has been clear. This may take a few days. Sometimes, not always, the other guides may have further questions which I will bring to you.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Chris1001
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:33 am

I chose you because you talked about the fear of abandonment, and I knew that I can stick with you as long as you need it.
Feel touched by that. I'm so glad you chose me to work with. Thanks Vivien :)

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Vivien
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Vivien » Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:43 am

Hi Chris,

There are no further questions for you. Congratulations for seeing through the self and for your persistent looking. It has been a pleasure to explore the concept of the separate self with you. Thank you for being open and willing to look.

Keep an eye out for an email notification notifying you of a PM (private message) from the forum inviting you to join our aftercare groups on Facebook. If you don't receive an email notification, you can access your PM's from the forum once you have logged in. The PM also details other resources available to you. Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of there being no separate self.

You can contact me at any time if you have any questions via private message here on the forum, or via Facebook if you decide to join our groups there.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Chris1001
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:56 am

Superb :)

One more final huge thank you, Vivien. You've been an absolute star! I will never forget the help you've given me. Keep up the great work you're doing here on Liberation Unleashed. All the best...

Chris


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