‘No doer of the deed is found...’

[Seamist]

Good

Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?

[River1]

No, I can't choose my emotions, mental state or attitude.
Looking closely at this process I find that there are times when a non-habitual response seems more available than others. For example, in response to the thought (stimulus) 'I need to get up now and make dinner' the response was 'can't be bothered' (thoughts, contractions in body). From there, recalling this exercise, came the thought 'I am feeling bright and energetic' and following that I readily got up to go and make the dinner. So there was an 'availability' - what does that mean? I guess it simply means that conditions were such that that is what happened! There was no 'point of choice'. 'I' didn't 'do' anything although it feels like I choose to respond differently in 'the gap'.
So I see, in direct experience, that there isn't a point of choosing an emotional response, but it feels like there still remains an attachment to the belief that we can. I think that the language that we use around 'the gap' and the 'creative response' can, for me, suggest the process of a choice in our emotional responses - I suppose this is a helpful model rather than a statement about reality.

[Seamist]

hi Sara
Some interesting observations and questions there. I don't know that I've the answers! What you suggest sounds sensible, though.I guess I would view it as a method that we're using to explore, if that makes sense to you?
And there will still be some hanging on yet to a belief that you can choose. But you are steadily unpicking that, which is great. And we'll be revisiting this area again soon.

Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?
xx

[River1]

I sit here and say numbers in my head until I finally 'choose' one. What does that mean? For a moment my mind settles on a number and then I stop thinking about numbers. The point of choosing feels different to the rest of the flow of experience in that I stop thinking about numbers for a moment, and in the context of the idea of choosing a number it feels like a decision was made.

Later on, if a number comes to my mind outwith the context of doing this exercise, it doesn't feel like I've chosen the number - simply that a number came to mind - because there isn't a story going on at that time about me 'choosing a number between 1-20'. So it feels like I 'choose a number' only in the context of a story about choosing a number.

I don't know what the number choosen is before it appears - a number, or numbers, appear, and only when the process of the numbers appearing comes to an end has, in effect, a number been 'choosen'.

[Seamist]

Really good detailed and clear noticing Sara.

Go to another room, pick a random object and bring it back to the computer. Ask questions to why they decided to choose that object.
xx

[River1]

I left my room and went into the hall, and I went into the only room with an open door. I picked up the first thing that caught my eye - a bright orange ball of wool. The light was fading and the object was bright, noticeable. I liked the texture of it when I picked it up. I looked around the room, noticing other obejects. I had the thought ‘I don’t need to make this complicated....this object will do.’ I had just had a conversation about whether I liked the new orange and pink poster for the Young Buddhist’s events. I left the room and came back to the computer with the ball of wall in my hand.
None of these things can answer the question ‘why I decided to choose that object’, they describe some of the conditions that led to me coming back to the computer with a ball of orange wool in my hand.

[Seamist]

Good. Repeat once more xx

[River1]

When doing the exercise this time I noticed that I was feeling drawn to things that I liked. I picked up a few items, and noticed my response to them. None were particularly ‘pleasant’. Then the idea of a candle came to mind, and so I left the room I was in to go and find a candle. When I picked up the candle, I noticed the pleasant vedana. I returned to the computer with the candle.
So I was more aware of my responses to the objects (or to the idea of the objects) this time around. Wanting something that gave me pleasant vedana seemed quite a strong influence in the choice.

[Seamist]

Hi

So I was more aware of my responses to the objects (or to the idea of the objects) this time around. Wanting something that gave me pleasant vedana seemed quite a strong influence in the choice.

interesting about the pleasant vedana, that's quite subtle. But presumably you could have picked up any number of other items still?
xx

[River1]

Hi Prabhakari,

That ‘I could have picked up any number of other items’ doesn’t feel quite true to me.....the conditions present meant that that is what happened. But to clarify, I dont feel that the picking up of the candle was ‘dictated’ by the desire for pleasant vedana - this was a condition, like many others, that was part of the flow of the experience that led to me ‘choosing’ the candle.

Sara x

[Seamist]

Sorry, I think I wasn't clear. What I meant was that presumably you could have picked other items that had associated pleasant vedana. But it was a minor point. The exercise is pointing to whether you can find a "choice-maker" and I think you got that.
Do you agree?

[Seamist]

Hi Sara
When you're ready, move on to:
Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what focus does. Focus on focussing, watch attention itself. Do you move it? Or it moves by itself? Hold focus on breath. See how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds. Is this something you control?
What moves attention? Is thinking in control of attention?
Describe what you see.

xx

[River1]

Hi Prabhakari,

I do not control attention. Focus flows, touching into sensations, sounds, thoughts, etc, without ‘me’, or without ‘thoughts’ dictating direction. If thoughts controlled attention, then I would be able to maintain awareness of a choosen object, but I can’t. So it seems that different aspects of experience come into focus and that sometimes there is also a thought about paying attention to a particular aspect of experience. There can be the thought ‘I will pay attention to my breath’ and sometimes I do then pay attention to my breath. But then attention drifts somewhere else without my willing it.
I can pay attention to my breath without any thought process involved. Thinking does not control attention.
No ‘thing’ moves attention - attention seems to flow, taking focus on different aspects of experience depending on conditions.

[Seamist]

Is it a surprise to notice that?

[River1]

Yes, and no!
I feel that I have been more and more aware, particualrly in my meditation practice, that effort and will-power can’t control my experience, can’t direct and hold my attention. I am experiencing the flow of experience more acutely, and the understanding that experience is unfolding based on conditions. However, in doing this exercise I do notice an element of surprise - I felt it in my body as a sort of release.