The Gate

When you are fully present, simply being as this moment. Is this feeling still there? Or is there simply a relaxed state of being?

When there is a relaxed state of being while the body or mind are in turmoil, then I'll believe that I've actually understood something. So far, I don't think I've moved an iota towards that realisation. Of course I understand the paradox here - the more I want it, the more I perpetuate the false belief in a separate entity. As I previously mentioned, this understanding is useless in seeing through the mirage.

Frankly, I don't know what questions to ask anymore. I continue to watch the thoughts and feelings to the degree I can (though I always worry if perhaps I'm not trying hard enough...) and hope that years of continued attempts will eventually bear fruit and, if nothing is realised before I kick the bucket, at least it won't be due of lack of trying :-)

When there is a relaxed state of being while the body or mind are in turmoil, then I'll believe that I've actually understood something

Isn't life ("being"), this, always relaxed? Or rather: Can it have a specific state at all? It IS, that is all that can be said.
When the mind is in turmoil (as the body doesn't know such a state) - how is that experienced? Thoughts chasing more thoughts... sensations being labelled as tension and pressure... But what is the same with this state and any other state? What is the same when you are happy and when you are sad? The knowing/perceiving of these sensations! Right?
Just see that you are not this entity that is conjured up out of conceptual thought - see that all there is, is the pure knowing of these thoughts, sensations and feelings, no matter if they are labelled as such and such. Can pure knowing / experiencing be in turmoil? Does it have to be "at peace" with whatever shows up? Or is what we call "being at peace" just as much This as what we call "being in turmoil"?

I continue to watch the thoughts and feelings to the degree I can

Ok, great, but try to see and separate the knower from the knowing, the thinker from the thinking... is there a knower or thinker at all? You are watching these thoughts, which is fine, but then you judge them using more thought and conclude that some are OK and some are not... You do the same with sense perceptions... Are any of these judgments really valid, do they provide any truth? Look at what arises, and see if what is being formulated by thought is true. Is there a thinker? Is there someone that suffers? Or are these all abstractions? Are these statement more then story-telling talking about an imaginary character that is suffering certain states?

When you dream and the dream-character suffers it might seem quite real, but are you really this character? Or are you the dream-ing itself? Can you separate the character from the dream? Does he stand in any way apart from it? Or is he known/experienced just like any other seeming object is experienced?
Do you really think the dream-character - these thoughts that arise - will ever be able to see, grasp and understand and thus control and shape the dream? Can a movie character control the screen? Its always the same... isn't it? See that thought will never know and end this quest for thought based understanding... You are not these thoughts, you don't need to control them, whatever judgement they provide has no relevance for This that you are.

Haven't written in a while, but every day I put time into contemplating the points you are trying to get across.
One of the reasons I don't write more often is the feeling that there's not much to report - that I've more or less covered and understood the theory but can't put it to practice, and what is left is just sitting down and putting time into watching the sensations and thoughts, trying to track down who they belong to, noticing all happenings and attempting to see that they don't really belong to anyone etc.

Today though, there was an interesting insight while meditating - again, nothing earth shattering but interesting enough to take note of. While I was deliberately avoiding changing to a more comfortable position after sitting for a long time, while concentrating on the sensation of discomfort and what thought has to say about it, there was an understanding which is a bit difficult for me to articulate now, but basically it was the fact that I'm not responsible for any of this - the pain, the struggle against it - nothing. Anything that I thought I feel or do is already being done and doesn't require my help to exist. At that particular point there was a sense of freedom from worrying about anything - there was simply that which happens and nothing else, and as such it would make no difference to this freedom what it is that happens. In fact, this freedom is what in fact happens.

Still, thoughts and doubts return quickly: Is this really the right track? do a few seconds of some insight have any significance in attaining a deep and stable realisation? Could it really be so simple, considering the complexity, the many levels that have to be understood and years upon years of training before any realizatdion can occur in the traditional paths (Advaita, Zen, Kabbalah etc.)

Anyway, hope you're enjoying your trip. I'll continue looking until hopefully this seeing becomes natural and the usual ego-filtered interpretation is seen more and more for what it is. Thanks again for your time and effort in helping - hope I can do the same someday :-)

Still, thoughts and doubts return quickly: Is this really the right track? do a few seconds of some insight have any significance in attaining a deep and stable realisation? Could it really be so simple, considering the complexity, the many levels that have to be understood

Yes, it can be that simple. It is that simple. As you said: "There is simply that which happens and nothing else"... it does not happen to a you and it is not done by a you. There are only thoughts about a you...
Does "whatever happens" to be stabilised? How? For who?
If thoughts and doubts return, then is this any less "that which happens"?
Sure, you might say "But why all this? why try to see through this no-self belief at all?"... The answer... I don't know... It simply happens... We might find many reasons for why this happens, but are they more than story, more than another idea or belief?
This that happens seems to have a tendency to forget itself in illusory duality, in identification with a part and somewhen it has a tendency to reverse this happening... So... Let it happen... :-)

If thoughts and doubts return, then is this any less "that which happens"?

It is for the one believing it is happening to him. After all, isn't the entire purpose to see through the belief in a separate suffering "I"? Sure, it doesn't matter to consciousness what a false entity believes in, it just Is regardless of how it manifests or what it identifies with, but to a false entity that wants to be free of falsehood, it matters a lot.

This that happens seems to have a tendency to forget itself in illusory duality, in identification with a part and somewhen it has a tendency to reverse this happening... So... Let it happen... :-)

Whatever will happen, will happen whether I like it or not, but I still wish that at some point I can be finally and permanently free of resisting what is happening, of worrying about what might happen, of being bound to identification with the body/mind and their limitation in time. So long as these continue, I will want to find a way to transcend them. Perhaps the only was to transcend is to totally and utterly give up any hope of succeeding, but I'm still hoping that with enough effort something will eventually click...

Perhaps the only was to transcend is to totally and utterly give up any hope of succeeding, but I'm still hoping that with enough effort something will eventually click...

Yes... you are pretty right in that as long as there is a "one" trying to succeed the fight will go on. It will go on until the battle is lost and no hope is left to ever come back and win it. This "battle" is synonymous with the search for the one that is beyond all suffering, for the true self. But the problem is that no matter how much you look you will never find it as an object - you can not grasp it. Why? Because it is the looking/perceiving itself! What you are looking for - your goal - is the looking itself. As they say in Advaita: “The Seeker Is the Sought”

Still thought continues to insist that there has to be something that it can find, conceptualise and hold on to. But this can only be another object... right? Are "you" an object? Or are you the perceiving itself?

Now, you might say "Yes, ok, I get that intellectually, but I still get entangled in this belief of a separate self!"
And yes, I fully agree. This happens. So what to do now..? Thought can not think itself out of existence. Thought can not shut itself off. All that can be done is to look at what is happening, to look, in perfect clarity, at all that is being perceived (incl. thought) and simply let it happen - but there is no "you" to let anything happen - it just happens and you look and observe. When there is grasping or rejection then look at this happening - see if you can find a little gap - a gap between the grasping/rejecting and the observing of it. Stay in this gap. When you drop out of it, find it again. Don't force it, don't create a separate observer, just be it - or rather, see that you are it.

It is for the one believing it is happening to him. After all, isn't the entire purpose to see through the belief in a separate suffering "I"? Sure, it doesn't matter to consciousness what a false entity believes in, it just Is regardless of how it manifests or what it identifies with, but to a false entity that wants to be free of falsehood, it matters a lot.

Can a false entity be free from falsehood? Maybe this goal can not be achieved?
Leave this "false entity" alone, let it die of neglect. Do you need it in any way? If not, then why would you try to achieve something for it?

Now, you might say "Yes, ok, I get that intellectually, but I still get entangled in this belief of a separate self!"

Looks like you know who you're dealing with :-)

When there is grasping or rejection then look at this happening - see if you can find a little gap - a gap between the grasping/rejecting and the observing of it. Stay in this gap. When you drop out of it, find it again. Don't force it, don't create a separate observer, just be it - or rather, see that you are it.

The thing is that the times this event of recognising this gap occurs are so few and far between that I keep thinking there is no way this can ever turn into something that's more than some fleeting event of truth in a swamp of deception. I worry that this is because I'm not doing enough - if I just spent more time at it, if I had the right environment, if I'd do something different then perhaps that would tilt the scales. You'd probably tell me that these are just more delusions of a false entity that thinks it can do something, and I'd agree (intellectually), but that's all I have to work with for now...

Can a false entity be free from falsehood? Maybe this goal can not be achieved?
Leave this "false entity" alone, let it die of neglect. Do you need it in any way? If not, then why would you try to achieve something for it?

Ok, I like the concept of letting it die of neglect. Hopefully I'll be able to be more alert and diligent in what my attention goes to. This noticing can only occur when I don't need to notice other things that require attention, at work or in interaction with others, which means I can only use my spare time when I'm alone to dig deeper into this contemplation. This brings me back to the question whether this is really enough.

I worry that this is because I'm not doing enough - if I just spent more time at it, if I had the right environment, if I'd do something different then perhaps that would tilt the scales

Ok... do something different...
Try this: Try to be aware of the sensations that are labelled "body" as much as possible. when you type be aware how it feels to have the fingers hitting the keyboard, when you walk feel your feet, the wind, the sun; when you sit feel the pressure at your back. Try to keep this up even when you are thinking about all these different things that you have to deal with in daily life. Try to split your attention and keep a part of it always on the physical sensations. When there is no need to think then simply rest in these sensations, in this witnessing. When there is need to think, then think, but try to also be aware of these sensations...

This noticing can only occur when I don't need to notice other things that require attention, at work or in interaction with others

The body is much more "stable" than the mind and this will in turn calm the mind and lead to less thought-traffic :-)
With a bit of practice it is possible to be aware of direct ("body") experience most of the time, even when thinking and interacting with others. It will ground you in direct experience - the gap is there, not in thought.
See how you go.

Try this: Try to be aware of the sensations that are labelled "body" as much as possible. when you type be aware how it feels

Thanks. When I read this suggestion this morning, it seemed simple enough. After a few hours, I noticed that while it is definitely more practical during daily activities than noticing awareness and thoughts, it's not as simple as it sounds. The mind is extremely skilled in forgetting everything and getting wrapped up in the current story - be it the current problem to be solved, the current conversation or the current daydreaming - it never rests from taking charge of something to do, and the identification follows, but I think with practice it will be possible to force some reminders in and turn that into a habit. Doing this simultaneously while concentrating on something else seems tricky, but perhaps with practice

I'll give this a go for some time and see if it helps turning this type of noticing into a habit which, if I understand correctly, could help at a later point with noticing every happening (without being entangled with it)

Yes, sure, give it a week and let me know how you go.

Also, try not to make a mind-game out of this. See how sensations are there no matter if thought is present or not. See that you don't require thought to be aware of sensations. See that its always only thought that labels and judges these sensations... See how physical/body-awareness automatically also enhances attention on seemingly external stimuli like sounds, visual perception etc etc...
Just be a curious explorer, without a goal or aim - you don't want anything from these sensations - you only look at them. So don't get upset when you get lost in thought, just return to looking again and again - this kind of "welcoming mindset" will work better than a competitive one :-)

Yes, sure, give it a week and let me know how you go.

Well, it appears the problem is not really the difficulty of noticing thoughts vs. noticing sensations but in remembering to notice either of them in the first place. The benefit of physical sensations (especially "bad" ones) are that they are a good reminder to be mindful of what comes up in awareness, but what happens is that I get lost so deep in thought that I usually forget to notice even the physical sensations. To try and counter this, I've just installed a timer to remind me every 15 minutes. This inability to stay with what is makes me willing to pay a good price for a device that could give me an electric shock every time my mind wanders and I start daydreaming or thinking pointless thoughts about the past or future :-)

Just be a curious explorer, without a goal or aim - you don't want anything from these sensations - you only look at them. So don't get upset when you get lost in thought, just return to looking again and again

I get upset when I "return" from being lost in thought and realise the amount of time wasted and the fact that I'll probably get lost again soon and waste a lot more time that could be better spent on working on a way out of the belief that I am my thoughts.

what happens is that I get lost so deep in thought that I usually forget to notice even the physical sensations. To try and counter this, I've just installed a timer to remind me every 15 minutes.

How are you going with your timer?

Your idea reminds me of techniques to learn to lucid dream... first you record your dreams, you write them down when you wake up at night or at least when you wake in the morning. You also implement reality checks (=your timer?) which can be anything from looking at your watch, your hands etc. while questioning if you are awake or dreaming... This is meant to turn into a routine that also happens automatically when you are dreaming. This reality check will make you realise that you are dreaming and thus you become lucid... Like in daily life you can also lose this lucidity if you again get too involved with your dream... Sounds familiar?
Now... I am not saying this is a bad idea, this kind of reality check, which takes you out of the thought-dream-world can be quite helpful. It doesn't have to be a timer or another technical device, it can be anything as long as you condition your system to react to certain impulses...
With lucid dreaming it is also possible to enter the dream-state directly from the waking state - meaning you never get "lost" in the first place, but remain alert while falling asleep... This can also be achieved in the waking state. Remaining alert while you are thinking and communicating... Only thing that is required is practice.

While the above is a very interesting practice, the question arises "Who is the one practicing?" or "Who is the one that is lucid or lost in thought/dream?" - Is there any such entity at all?

So, you have to be careful that what you are doing is not only "upgrading" the dream-character to a (seemingly) better one. One that is (seemingly) more alert about what is going on in direct experience - and one that won't be carried away by useless thought-stories.
It is essential to see that it is not the dream-character that is alert at all. You have to see that alertness/awareness does not belong to the character... Do you see that?

How are you going with your timer?

It appears even using a timer isn't straightforward :-) There's the issue of finding a volume/signal that I'll notice but will not be noticed by others. Also, there's the bigger challenge (for me at least) of concentrating on two different things at the same time. While writing this, the bell rang (a few times) so I made the point of being aware of the sensations, trying to trace back their origin and notice that there is no one to control them or own them, but while doing this I couldn't write anything (or to put it more accurately, writing could not occur) and while I'm concentrating on articulating what to write I can't focus on observing the sensations. I guess the saying of having a problem with walking and chewing gum at the same time applies to me in this case. This is why I think ample timeout from "civilization" is required, but that's probably not going to happen so I'll continue trying with the cards dealt.

Your idea reminds me of techniques to learn to lucid dream...

Interesting you should mention that, as it relates to a story which seems like a large stumbling block to realization (even before the stumbling block of mistaking an "improved" dream character for true liberation). This stumbling block is the belief that it all boils down to dumb luck. Having had random lucid dreams since childhood, I eventually read about it and was especially interested in the practice of Yoga of the dream state in Tibetan Buddhism, but the effect that this information had was more one of despair than of hope. Much like other practices that lead to liberation, this one too involves a great deal of study, practice and time and therefore enough faith/courage to leave whatever life you have behind and focus only on that. I always felt that with my particular body/mind makeup, this was not to be and thus liberation for me would be like the story of Moses and the promised land - something to be seen from afar but never entered. Even the stories of those who have realised "no self" without the need to spend decades practicing some technique or tradition is sometimes (times when the ego takes over) seen as similar to winning the lottery - just another stroke of luck which this particular self can only dream of. This self then goes on a long rant on how everything good the enlightened ones speak about exists only for those who were lucky enough to realise it. A false entity believing in a false suffering, is nevertheless suffering from that perspective. Anyway, this psychological hangup on everything just boiling down to being lucky enough probably has it's roots earlier on, but I'm not really interested in tracing where it started, just mentioning it as yet another self-reinforcing belief that needs to be seen through.

While the above is a very interesting practice, the question arises "Who is the one practicing?" or "Who is the one that is lucid or lost in thought/dream?" - Is there any such entity at all?

As long as there's anyone that believes they are a being that experiences anything, no matter how "advanced" the being or how subtle or sublime the experience, there is some degree of ignorance. I know this to be true, but the problem is that the one who knows this to be true is yet to be seen as false...

So, you have to be careful that what you are doing is not only "upgrading" the dream-character to a (seemingly) better one. One that is (seemingly) more alert about what is going on in direct experience - and one that won't be carried away by useless thought-stories.

Yes, I understand what you're saying. Wouldn't it be advantagous though to have an upgraded dream-character in the sense that this character would have a better chance of noticing they are just a character than one who doesn't even get the chance to question it?

it is essential to see that it is not the dream-character that is alert at all. You have to see that alertness/awareness does not belong to the character... Do you see that?

I'm trying to. Funny, it's obvious this character will never see it, and yet at times I (not the self) know it doesn't matter as I'm not this character. However, this character is frustrated that those times aren't happening often enough :-)

Also, there's the bigger challenge (for me at least) of concentrating on two different things at the same time. While writing this, the bell rang (a few times) so I made the point of being aware of the sensations, trying to trace back their origin and notice that there is no one to control them or own them, but while doing this I couldn't write anything

Maybe you are using the wrong kind of concentration... Its not about concentrating - thinking - about writing and physical sensations at the same time. This is not possible as you can only have one thought at a time.
But you can be AWARE of many different perceptions in a non-conceptual way at each moment. This means you can put your conceptual efforts into writing while at the same time you are aware of your physical sensations. You don't think about these sensations, you are simply aware of them. And when you finished writing you still think, but you don't get involved. You extend this awareness of physical sensations to thoughts and then they also just arise and vanish in awareness.
Do you see my point?

This stumbling block is the belief that it all boils down to dumb luck.

Well... call it luck or whatever you like, but you have been interested in this topic for years and now you are here at LU and this is already a small Jack-Pot compared to most other people on this planet that don't even have the "luck" to ever think about liberation from this illusion of a separate self. They take it as a given. The real luck or maybe we should call it grace, is that you question this concept/belief in the first place. Everything else will fall into place. Don't worry :-)

Even the stories of those who have realised "no self" without the need to spend decades practicing some technique or tradition is sometimes seen as similar to winning the lottery

Yes... the ego wants to win in the lottery. The price is death! Do you think the ego really wants to win?
Look at this so called ego... Its only a bunch of conditioned beliefs, some conceptual structures, an objectivised part of an unbroken whole. It is an object like any other object, the lamp on your desk, the tree in the park... But You are not an object!

As long as there's anyone that believes they are a being that experiences anything, no matter how "advanced" the being or how subtle or sublime the experience, there is some degree of ignorance.

Yes, true. The ignorance is exactly the same - as there are no "advanced" or lesser beings in the first place.

So, please show me this "anyone that believes they are a being that experiences anything". Where is it?
Look for it right now and don't just think "Yes, I know its just a thought. I know but it doesn't help so why look again?"
Why? Because thought might tell something that sounds like the truth, but the real truth is "in" looking, in perceiving!
Truth is not in thought! Truth can not be expressed in language, so don't try to think yourself to liberation. Liberation is right here/now in this perceiving itself.

Yes, I understand what you're saying. Wouldn't it be advantagous though to have an upgraded dream-character in the sense that this character would have a better chance of noticing they are just a character than one who doesn't even get the chance to question it?

Yes, this is the luck/grace that I have been mentioning above. You are already lucky - you are upgraded to the max. Now use your skills, but not the ones of logical deduction, the ones of child-like, innocent and open observation, the ones that don't need to be objectively present. Use these skills.

at times I (not the self) know it doesn't matter as I'm not this character

Ok... so who or what is this "I" that knows?
If you would have to describe it right now, in this moment, what is this I that is not the character?
Try to put it into words and don't worry about the knowledge that states "words will never grasp it" - try describing it anyway.

But you can be AWARE of many different perceptions in a non-conceptual way at each moment. This means you can put your conceptual efforts into writing while at the same time you are aware of your physical sensations. You don't think about these sensations, you are simply aware of them.

Either I'm missing something trivial or perhaps there's something wrong with how I'm built, but I can't think of one example where I'm aware of more than one thing at a time. I'm sure multiple things might get registered unconsciously, but "my" surface awareness (for lack of a better term) is limited to the thing being focusing on at a given moment. For all practical purposes, other things don't exist until attention is drawn to them. Isn't this the basis of what entertainment magicians do - draw attention to something so that another thing will disappear from awareness?

The real luck or maybe we should call it grace, is that you question this concept/belief in the first place.

I'll step down a bit as the character wants to have his say... :-)
There a huge difference between luck and grace in the way I perceive it. Grace implies benevolence, compassion, generosity. Luck implies none of that: One gets liberated because that's how their dice rolled while another rots in suffering because theirs rolled differently. From this perspective this game seems like a cruel hoax. Also, it's only good luck to question beliefs if it ends with liberation from them, otherwise total ignorance is much more rewarding, but then again, the dice will decide that, won't they?
...end of rant

Actually, for many years I've identified with this angry and sarcastic view but luckily (haha...) have outgrown it - well, for the most part, when it does pop up I let it have it's little rant, say thank you for sharing and move on... The way I see it now, this argument is valid only for someone who gives much importance to the object they believe themselves to be. Though I'm not free from this belief yet, it appears it's hold is lessening a bit.

Yes... the ego wants to win in the lottery. The price is death! Do you think the ego really wants to win?

Unlike Buddha, as long as it doesn't cause suffering to people I care about (e.g leaving for a very long time, becoming mentally or physically incapacitated etc.) I'm ready to do whatever it takes to see truth and don't care what the ego wants or doesn't want. Of course, unlike missions in duality in which I don't stop until I reach the goal, the situation here is that I don't see the goal and that any attempt to reach it or "do" anything just takes it further away, so mostly I feel like I'm fumbling in the dark.

So, please show me this "anyone that believes they are a being that experiences anything". Where is it?
Look for it right now and don't just think "Yes, I know its just a thought. I know but it doesn't help so why look again?"

I'm really at a loss here - how can I show a process? I can't show this "me" that's writing these words since as you said, it's only a bunch of conditioned beliefs, some conceptual structures - there's no way to show it, but that doesn't mean these beliefs and structures don't exist or have any effects. Indeed they are what make up the character required to generate these words. Now, is this character what I am? My intellect and intuition points otherwise, but I'd be lying if I'd say this is known beyond a shadow of a doubt.

You are already lucky - you are upgraded to the max.

Upgraded to the max in my book is for example someone with the ability that you mentioned to remain continuously lucid in the waking state, in the dream state and in the transition between them. I have a higher probability to break the world record in running a marathon than ever achieving this (and I'm not even a runner...)

Ok... so who or what is this "I" that knows?
If you would have to describe it right now, in this moment, what is this I that is not the character?
Try to put it into words and don't worry about the knowledge that states "words will never grasp it" - try describing it anyway.

I can try and describe it, with the caveat that this could just be my imagination or wishful thinking, but here goes:
In clearer moments, there's this understanding that what I usually take to be me is not really that important. This is not a feeling of self criticism but rather a realisation that it doesn't really matter what happens to this character as nothing can harm the entirety which is all there is and which is the only thing that can ever be, and thus the source of any I. In these moments fear of death or worry of the future loses much of it's power.
Other times, it's in noticing thoughts about thoughts - not thinking thoughts about thoughts but actually seeing these thoughts as just more perceivable happenings, just like objects, sensations etc. Then there's the realization of all of these and everything else imaginable, conceptual or not being able to be perceived while there is no real perceiver anywhere.

Lest it would appear that I'm far wiser than I really am, the above are only tiny and rare flickers of understanding in an otherwise dark landscape where I'm usually to be found, so I'm really not holding my breath until everything will start falling into place...