Ready to let go. Requesting a guide.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Ready to let go. Requesting a guide.

Postby vinceschubert » Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:41 am

which stems from a feeling of wanting.
Ok, let's look at a feeling of wanting.
Is it a feeling, a sensation ?
How is thought involved here ? Is there a story with an outcome ? Do expectations set you up for a lift or a fall ?
Everything has to become conceptual to be expressed.
Yes, sure, but is it taken to be real ? Is is SEEn as conceptual, or is there an emotional investment in it ?
A decision is made to look, and then one LOOKS, at least that is how it appears.
You saw the Du Sautoy video where decisions were made before the mind claimed ownership, didn't you ?
Lift your left hand now.
Did lifting happen, then thoughts happen ? ..or did thoughts happen then lifting ?
Benny, is there a controller somewhere inside ?

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Re: Ready to let go. Requesting a guide.

Postby Tao » Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:40 pm

Hi Vince :)
Ok, let's look at a feeling of wanting.
Is it a feeling, a sensation ?
Yes.
How is thought involved here ? Is there a story with an outcome ? Do expectations set you up for a lift or a fall ?
Yes definitely. Thoughts that want a certain outcome to story, a fantasy almost, that set up big expectations of one particular outcome, which never works out and inevitably leads to a fall. Then suffering happens. Eventually a letting go. Then joy with when things appear to be going well again, the thoughts that cling to the going well, and then the thoughts that set up the big expectations and it all goes round again and again. It is the frustrating and never ultimately satisfying storyline cycle.

It is the wanting/feeling/yearning for love/unity/connection, and the belief that it can be found if only the story goes as planned that keeps the whole thing turning.
Everything has to become conceptual to be expressed.
Yes, sure, but is it taken to be real ? Is is SEEn as conceptual, or is there an emotional investment in it ?
It is the emotional investment that causes suffering. It's like the stories won't be let go of, on an emotional level. Not all of them of course, but certainly the strongest story-lines, the story lines that delve deep into love and hate, and the deep yearning for love/connection/unity, and the story-lines of anger/fear too.

They play out, boldly, loudly, like a dance between the mind and the senses, and one is taken in, intoxicated by the play, and thrown around by it's highs and lows.

Sometimes they are seen as stories and the chuckling may happen, or may be forced, but isn't this still just another thought? The thought that says, 'haha that's just a story'.
A decision is made to look, and then one LOOKS, at least that is how it appears.
You saw the Du Sautoy video where decisions were made before the mind claimed ownership, didn't you ?

Lift your left hand now.
The perception upon reading this line, along with some sort of will to conform, appeared to be the causing factor in the arm lifting. Then the thoughts after may have been something like, 'I lifted my arm because I was told to'.
Did lifting happen, then thoughts happen ? ..or did thoughts happen then lifting ?
Lifting appeared to happen as a result of that which was read, along with a trust and compliance with you as my guide, and so the instinct to lift the arm, lifted the arm. The 'I' thoughts then happen after.

It appears that perception of experience causes the arm to lift instinctively.
Benny, is there a controller somewhere inside ?
I'm looking for the controller but still can't find 'him'. It feels like there is one still. Where does that will come from, the will that causes the arm to lift?

Benny

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Re: Ready to let go. Requesting a guide.

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:02 pm

Benny, give me a rant on the following;
What is Reality ?
What is Truth ?
What is the meaning of life ?

love

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Re: Ready to let go. Requesting a guide.

Postby Tao » Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:31 pm

Hi Vince
Benny, give me a rant on the following;
Ok Sure :)
What is Reality ?
To be honest I don't even know what reality is anymore. The usual waking state of consciousness/experiencing feels like reality, but this has many different states within it. The only reality seems to be experiencing itself. Whatever dream/illusion/madness is going on, is what is current reality. There appear to be different 'realms' of consciousness, however subtle. They are generalized as everyday life, but looking at them they are so vastly different from each other, ever changing, ever in flux, ranging from godly bliss to hellish fear and despair. Nothing is stable, so how can anything be considered reality when it has no fixed reality itself? Thoughts have a tendency to say, 'this is how things are' when joy is felt, or when depression is felt. 'It's always like this' the thought may say, but it's just not true.

Moments of lucidity appear during sleep, a looking at a visual illusion within the mind, and this is just as real, if not more real, than looking at the room in front of me now.

I don't know if reality has any reality.
What is Truth ?
Truth can't be conceptualized, which is baffling because everything is currently explained with conceptual thought. Truth also cannot be explained or labeled because once it has a label it is just another concept. Truth just is, ineffable and silent, expressing it's own nature. 'Proving' things through science and logic seems ridiculous, nothing can be proven, just as nothing is ultimately right or wrong. Right or wrong themselves both reveal something deeper. Nothing can be pinned down.
What is the meaning of life ?
The way it appears, the meaning of life in conceptual terms, is a maturing/expanding of consciousness that comes about as a result of different levels of experiencing. It does feel like there is a reason for the stories, that the stories teach certain lessons for consciousness to mature, and for the stories to refine with wisdom. It feels like, the process that is unfolding, is the process that must unfold. Experience that must happen, however uncomfortable, for the sake of conscious growth. Life seems so cruel sometimes, the pain that comes with the feeling of a loss of love or a separation from 'other', but this suffering is clearly necessary. Suffering causes a deepening, and this deepening it seems, is the reason for human life. So many different realms of consciousness, all there to teach, yet such a tough and unforgiving lesson.

Most of the time it feels like there is no real meaning, it feels like life is pointless, and ridiculous. But I suppose these are just thoughts in response to painful feelings that arise.

love
Benny

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Re: Ready to let go. Requesting a guide.

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:58 am

G'Morning Benny.
i like your take on Reality. It seemed to arise as pure observation and concures with experiencing here.
Truth on the other hand seems to start with the assumption that there is such a thing, which in itself is conceptual (even if words can't express it)
Have you ever seen a Truth ?
If a Truth exists, does a False ?

The "meaning of life" subject also seemed to evoke an assumption that there is one.
deepening it seems, is the reason for human life.
Does this mean that there is not meaning for animal or insect (or other) life ?
Is it mind (thoughts) that crave meaning ?
Most of the time it feels like there is no real meaning, it feels like life is pointless, and ridiculous.
Is "no real meaning, pointless & ridiculous" just another version of 'meaning' ?
Is it possible that life(ing), just IS ?

Love

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Re: Ready to let go. Requesting a guide.

Postby Tao » Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:33 pm

Hi Vince
Truth on the other hand seems to start with the assumption that there is such a thing, which in itself is conceptual (even if words can't express it)
Have you ever seen a Truth ?
If a Truth exists, does a False ?
No, there is a sense that everything is truth, nothing is false. In that sense, then truth can't exist without false, so everything IS. Truth IS, pure and expressive.
The "meaning of life" subject also seemed to evoke an assumption that there is one
deepening it seems, is the reason for human life.
Does this mean that there is not meaning for animal or insect (or other) life ?
Well, again a concept, but experience for each insect, for each animal, is so vastly different. From a mole scratching around in the dirt to a bird soaring through the sky. Learning the universal textures, the energy play, the push and pull of life, all accumulated through experience to deepen.
Is it mind (thoughts) that crave meaning ?
Well it is thoughts that attempt to find meaning, in everything. Even the window in front of me, thoughts must give it meaning. So yeah, thoughts crave meaning.
Most of the time it feels like there is no real meaning, it feels like life is pointless, and ridiculous.
Is "no real meaning, pointless & ridiculous" just another version of 'meaning' ?
Is it possible that life(ing), just IS ?
Hmm. Well, without any sense of meaning, there is only despair. When thoughts cannot find meaning, they crave non existence. Even right now there is a will for no longer living as 'I'. If no meaning, then why suffering?

Love
Benny

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Re: Ready to let go. Requesting a guide.

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:19 pm

there is a sense that everything is truth, nothing is false. In that sense, then truth can't exist without false, so everything IS. Truth IS, pure and expressive.
Hmm, this sounds like a deduction, so try this;
What is real ?
Is there anything outside of your current experiencing that does not present itself to you as a thought ?
Well, again (meaning is) a concept,
Yes, interesting stories. Stories that we can have real emotional responses to.
So yeah, thoughts crave meaning.
Yes, and sometimes to the point where they would rather have 'meaningful' crap rather than a void.
without any sense of meaning, there is only despair
Is this conditioning ? Did it come from one of those stories ?
Could it be replaced with a story that the meaning of life is to live in the now ?
Here is a quote (from the person who triggered my 'shift') - can you grok it ?
The Effortless Way

I really want this to be my last post. I’ve said everything I can say in a thousand different ways. But it is all much clearer now and it is this clarity that I want to present to you today.

Dispense with Meditation

Unless we meditate for just the joy of it, then dispense with it, for when we meditate with a purpose than we can be sure that we’re operating from the self-centered view of ego to create and mold a “better me”.

Dispense with Knowledge

Nothing can be known. Can you know a tree? Yes you can study it, you can chop it into pieces, you can observe its structure under a microscope, but at any point in your labors can you say that you truly know this tree? No, you cannot. Release your fake, superficial knowledge, for all of it is false.

Dispense with Trying to Be Someone You are Not

Since you can never know who or what you are, then just give up the vain attempt to being someone you are not. All of that is mere projection and all such projections emanate from the same place; one’s underlying identification with inadequacy and unworthiness. This desire and need to becoming someone or something we are not is all the motion of these underlying identifications, so give it all up. Be what you are.

Effortlessness

While there are no discrete moments, we can speak metaphorically of moments in the simplest possible terms. When we dispense with all of our effort to force ourselves or this moment to be anything but what it is in its immediacy, then we sustain the yokes around our psychological necks. Give it all up.

Be effortless in everything. It is your being that allows everything to effortlessly happen. Fear-based effort obscures the intimate perfection of this moment … just as it is … fresh … new … alive … fleeting.

You happen in this moment, along with everything else and this is the perfection of this being. You’ve already arrived. Your long journey is already completed.

This is the way to happiness, joy and contentment.

That is all.
If no meaning, then why suffering?
You tell me..

love & peace

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Re: Ready to let go. Requesting a guide.

Postby Tao » Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:33 pm

Hey vince
What is real ?
Is there anything outside of your current experiencing that does not present itself to you as a thought ?
Nope. Thoughts do appear to have some impact upon future experiencing though.

Yes, and sometimes to the point where they would rather have 'meaningful' crap rather than a void.
Definitely.
without any sense of meaning, there is only despair
Is this conditioning ? Did it come from one of those stories ?
Yes it came from negative feelings, perception and stories.
Could it be replaced with a story that the meaning of life is to live in the now ?
Yes definitely. Is that all though? Is there really nothing to 'do'?
Here is a quote (from the person who triggered my 'shift') - can you grok it ?
The Effortless Way

I really want this to be my last post. I’ve said everything I can say in a thousand different ways. But it is all much clearer now and it is this clarity that I want to present to you today.

Dispense with Meditation

Unless we meditate for just the joy of it, then dispense with it, for when we meditate with a purpose than we can be sure that we’re operating from the self-centered view of ego to create and mold a “better me”.

Dispense with Knowledge

Nothing can be known. Can you know a tree? Yes you can study it, you can chop it into pieces, you can observe its structure under a microscope, but at any point in your labors can you say that you truly know this tree? No, you cannot. Release your fake, superficial knowledge, for all of it is false.

Dispense with Trying to Be Someone You are Not

Since you can never know who or what you are, then just give up the vain attempt to being someone you are not. All of that is mere projection and all such projections emanate from the same place; one’s underlying identification with inadequacy and unworthiness. This desire and need to becoming someone or something we are not is all the motion of these underlying identifications, so give it all up. Be what you are.

Effortlessness

While there are no discrete moments, we can speak metaphorically of moments in the simplest possible terms. When we dispense with all of our effort to force ourselves or this moment to be anything but what it is in its immediacy, then we sustain the yokes around our psychological necks. Give it all up.

Be effortless in everything. It is your being that allows everything to effortlessly happen. Fear-based effort obscures the intimate perfection of this moment … just as it is … fresh … new … alive … fleeting.

You happen in this moment, along with everything else and this is the perfection of this being. You’ve already arrived. Your long journey is already completed.

This is the way to happiness, joy and contentment.


Wow. I don't know what grok means, but reading this really had a profound effect.

Since you can never know who or what you are, then just give up the vain attempt to being someone you are not. All of that is mere projection and all such projections emanate from the same place; one’s underlying identification with inadequacy and unworthiness. This desire and need to becoming someone or something we are not is all the motion of these underlying identifications, so give it all up. Be what you are.


How to give it up, when the desires are there, the identifications are there, the energy put into 'being someone' happens of it's own accord. It takes more thoughts to give it up, thoughts and practise to let go, does it not?

If no meaning, then why suffering?
You tell me..

Suffering happens, because of desires that are there. Discomfort and dissatisfaction. How to let go of these desires when they are so automatic.

Love
Benny

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Re: Ready to let go. Requesting a guide.

Postby Tao » Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:52 am

All those years of being led to believe, either from 'others' or from thoughts, that what IS now, is not good enough. That there is somewhere else to get to. Anger has been arising. There is anger that, 'I' have not been acceptable just the way 'I' am. The years of 'selling out' to expectations. There is no will left anymore to be 'somebody', just a feeling of 'f*** it all'.

It is the resistance to 'now' that causes suffering. This resistance happens on so many subtle levels. Under the surface, it could be noticed that a feeling is not being accepted, that in the back of one's mind, a thought that says, 'this needs to change'. That, in itself, is a form of self-hatred. All those years of not being acceptable to 'self' and to 'other'.

One thing that is amazing, life unfolds beautifully all on it's own. The thoughts that encourage one to act, to change things, they only cause problems. Of course there are times when action must be taken, but that happens spontaneously and naturally when there is no interference from inner resistance. A complete allowing of life to unfold, without interference, and it flows, beautifully. The thoughts, 'keep quiet and see what happens' are particularly helpful thoughts. Without resistance there is only expression, and benevolence to the unfolding now.

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Re: Ready to let go. Requesting a guide.

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:07 pm

Ahh Benny, on reading this post my heart burst open with joy.
Story here is that a shift has occurred.
Is there anger now ?
Is there despair now ?
Is there resistance now ?
Is there suffering now ?
The thoughts that encourage one to act, to change things, they only cause problems.
Is this process SEEn ? (before, during, or after it happens ?)
Without resistance there is only expression, and benevolence to the unfolding now.
Is this your experiencing ? (this is what prompted the story that released heart feeling here)

Much love (and joy)

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Re: Ready to let go. Requesting a guide.

Postby Tao » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:26 pm

Insight is unfolding, division between self and other is diminishing. More time needed :)

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Re: Ready to let go. Requesting a guide.

Postby Tao » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:48 pm

Ahh Benny, on reading this post my heart burst open with joy.
Story here is that a shift has occurred.
Something has shifted. The will to apply energy into stories has severely diminished. What is there to hold on to? It's all BS anyway. The will to 'be' someone seems to be falling away too. Stories have been seen as cyclical and ultimately frustrating, and even if there is some holding on, it can only continue to be seen as such, and therefore continue to fall away.
Is there anger now ?
Is there despair now ?
Is there resistance now ?
Is there suffering now ?
Not really no. A bit of anger arises, and stories of 'others' expecting 'me' to be a certain way. I can't think of a better way to explain, but there is a strong feeling of 'f*** it all'.

I'm sure resistance still rears it's head, and will continue to cause suffering, but then there isn't much resistance to the resistance, more of a letting go.
The thoughts that encourage one to act, to change things, they only cause problems.
Is this process SEEn ? (before, during, or after it happens ?)
It varies, but mostly it is seen straight away. Event happens, feelings/thoughts may arise, but there is a stillness, no will to act on them, more of a letting life be the way it is. Why resist anything? It's all going to be the way it's going to be. Why exert energy into control?
Without resistance there is only expression, and benevolence to the unfolding now.
[/quote]Is this your experiencing ? (this is what prompted the story that released heart feeling here)

There is still a looking at suffering. Pain cannot be avoided and still arises, and perhaps it causes resistance, frustration. Mainly there is just acceptance. Resistant won't change anything, other than making it less tolerable.

Yesterday, I was massaging my hands. As I was massaging my hands, I seemed to be focusing on my right hand more. I noticed a little thought that said, 'the right hand is getting more attention than the left hand, the left hand will feel left out', the left hand will feel as if it is giving more than it is receiving'. And then it dawned on me how ridiculous this was, and I laughed. This is what thoughts do, they create division, and find problems. If both hands had seperate thoughts, this is what would happen. Yet, it is the same body that is receiving a healing massage, perhaps the right hand just needed it more. And whilst the left hand is massaging, it too is benefiting, it is opening, healing, stretching. It is the same pleasure in the hands, giving is the same as receiving - it is one. It's not like one would get upset, feeling left out. It is the same body! In this way, the two hands are one. So what about other bodies? The division between self and other, slowly it seems, is dissolving.

And then there is a thought that comes in, as I speak into a dictaphone, that says, 'I should put these recordings in some sort of order'. Of course it is the mind that wants order, it creates division, just so it can apply order. The heart just wants to express what it wants to express, but the mind says, 'no don't express that, it doesn't tie in with my ideal', express it all in the right order. The mind always finds fault. And the mind pulls one away from the path, the heart's journey. It's some cliche to follow the heart, but the mind will always want some kind of order, some kind of reason, some kind of meaning. Heart only wishes to express without reward. The mind is always looking for a reward, like a dog who gets its treat when it performs the 'correct' trick. It gets it's momentary lift. Until the dog gets hungry again, and goes searching for another treat, and another, and another, and it gets angry when it doesn't get its treat, in fact, he rages and may be overcome with primal desire. The mind is the wild hound, desperate for sustenance, desperate for fulfillment. But that fulfillment when found is only temporary, and the hunger will soon return. Yet, with enough love, all wild animals can be tamed.

The mind is the devil on your left shoulder. It whispers in your ear, 'follow me, I will show the path, the way to happiness'. It performs all kinds of tricks and illusions, it is the great illusionist, and one may be taken in. It is a trick, the path only leads to degredation, resistance, suffering.

Then there is the heart, like God on your right hand shoulder. It cries out to you, 'follow me, I will show you freedom'. you just have to give it all up and follow me right NOW, I want nothing in return, no certificates'. The heart yearns to guide, in fact it doesn't guide, it's just expressing. Of course the shift just has to happen, by itself, when the mind is FULLY seen to be guiding in the direction of suffering every time.

Benny

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Re: Ready to let go. Requesting a guide.

Postby Tao » Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:17 pm

At some point it all has to just be let go of. No more "I'll just fix this, I'll just change that". Yes conditioning/karma will play out. It's like a car, plummeting down a hill, out of control, with you in the driver seat. At some point you've just got to realize you can't stop the car, and just jump out, let it crash.

Yet the stories will be faced, NOW, as they arise, and left to play out, with only benevolence.

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Re: Ready to let go. Requesting a guide.

Postby vinceschubert » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:31 am

Who is the one who is saying that?
What is making all the commentary?

vince/Gomi
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Re: Ready to let go. Requesting a guide.

Postby Tao » Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:07 am

Who is the one who is saying that?
What is making all the commentary?

vince/Gomi
Not sure, there was just an impulse to express, stories that willed to come out. Underneath the stories there is a beautiful silence.


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