Zen Of Chaos-this is your thread

[ZenOfchaos]

finding this one hard. the actual belief part is very subtle. it's that leap from experience to the conclusion about it. it's like an invisible string that can't seem to be grasped.

i played about with the eperience of being cold. there are feelings of temperature and other very subtle experiential qualities. when its really looked at the sensations are just sensations - then there is a different dimension to it when the mind interprets it...ie this is cold, unpleasant, etc.

with the body there are sensations in differnet parts of the body and there are thoughts "just because it can't be seen doesn't mean the body does not exist". On the prt of the mind there is evidence gathering for why the body is there. Again its like this invisible string - a knowing or feeling that 'there is a body'. on the level of experience sensations occur and there is noticing of them. On the level of words there is interpretation of experience.

Going to watch the football today if i can, that always throws up some beliefs to look at. The referee's a ....... :)

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi,

finding this one hard. the actual belief part is very subtle. it's that leap from experience to the conclusion about it. it's like an invisible string that can't seem to be grasped.

i played about with the eperience of being cold. there are feelings of temperature and other very subtle experiential qualities. when its really looked at the sensations are just sensations - then there is a different dimension to it when the mind interprets it...ie this is cold, unpleasant, etc.

with the body there are sensations in differnet parts of the body and there are thoughts "just because it can't be seen doesn't mean the body does not exist". On the prt of the mind there is evidence gathering for why the body is there. Again its like this invisible string - a knowing or feeling that 'there is a body'. on the level of experience sensations occur and there is noticing of them. On the level of words there is interpretation of experience.

Going to watch the football today if i can, that always throws up some beliefs to look at. The referee's a ....... :)

Good stuff. Continue to see how these two worlds are distinct. Notice how BOTH are seen in awareness. Experience like a figure in a landscape. Words/interpretation like a figure in a landscape.

I'm a Newcastle United fan for what it's worth. Not sure about Pardew's beard. He's going for the Shakespearan look methinks.

Speak soon,
John

[ZenOfchaos]

Bad day at the office for both teams :(

[ZenOfchaos]

John,

I'm confused about fear.

I have some quite bad anxiety right now. I've been 'looking' a lot recently but also have been running around a lot lately and as a result i'm run down and exhausted. So I don't know if this anxiety is manifesting for one or other. Or both.

As such i#m afraid to really look deep into no-self because the thoughts and physical reactions are intense and prolonged. But if this fear is the self's last stand then maybe i can get up the courage to stare it down and get to the gate.

But if it's not and it's just general anxiety then I may be trying to beat down the wrong door and make myself feel worse. So the question is: Are the two types of anxiety different? To get behind the fear of no-self is it only advisable to tackle anxiety/fear that occurs only in direct response to looking at the no-self situation?

Fear really is the scourge of the universe. Without a belief in self then I presume this psychological disease holds no power and begins to dissipate. After all, there is no-one to be anxious right? Just the remnants of conditioning and physiological aftermath.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi,

John,

I'm confused about fear.

I have some quite bad anxiety right now. I've been 'looking' a lot recently but also have been running around a lot lately and as a result i'm run down and exhausted. So I don't know if this anxiety is manifesting for one or other. Or both.

As such i#m afraid to really look deep into no-self because the thoughts and physical reactions are intense and prolonged. But if this fear is the self's last stand then maybe i can get up the courage to stare it down and get to the gate.

But if it's not and it's just general anxiety then I may be trying to beat down the wrong door and make myself feel worse. So the question is: Are the two types of anxiety different? To get behind the fear of no-self is it only advisable to tackle anxiety/fear that occurs only in direct response to looking at the no-self situation?

Fear really is the scourge of the universe. Without a belief in self then I presume this psychological disease holds no power and begins to dissipate. After all, there is no-one to be anxious right? Just the remnants of conditioning and physiological aftermath.

It's not so much that there's no-one to be anxious. As a socially-conditioned human being, there's stuff that shows up to which the response may well be fear-based or anxiety.

I'm no expert, but from my experience, anxiety is when the mind goes off on one, spinning around fearful thoughts and then feeling bad about spinning around fearful thoughts.

There's no need to feel bad doing this inquiry at all. Take it lightly, softly, gently. A shift of approach can be helpful to soften the "reality" of self.

It's like looking at the right hand and the experience is of looking happening and there's an overlay of "I am looking at MY hand". We're looking at this CONTRAST between experience and thought/overlay.

Fear shows up when you're touching new territory. The mind tends to freak out and try to make the unknown, known by thinking about it etc, etc. But really, if you just act like it's nothing special, very ordinary, breath regularly and easily, and experience the unknown experience inch-by-inch, you incorporate it in a gentler fashion.

All in all, be gentle and kind with yourself.

Hope this is useful.

Best wishes,
John

[ZenOfchaos]

I think I have an underlying belief that "my" awakening will be violent (like before), that this way is the path for me. When I was ill before I had an awakening/glimpse/opening or whatever you want to call it and as I got better the experiences and 'closeness' to no-self agonisingly faded away and the self-story took strronger hold again. It truely was agonising to watch it all slowly fall out of your grasp. But hey this is all story right :) A story that leads to the belief that a brutal awakening is the only way out of this self-mare.

Anxiety is a disorder based on fear. There may well be some physical/nutritional component to it but its certainly fueled and focused on the "self" in my opinion. Fear of something bad happening to the self, fear of what others think about the you, fear of the you in some future bad scenario, etc. Coupled with those fears there are the fears of the unknown and having no control. In my opinion anxiety is very much borne out of the belief in self.

In that respect when the belief in self falls away then it will be easier to recognise the thought patterns involved with anxiety and there won't be the attachment to the character. There won't be the identification with the the little "me" victim.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi,

I think I have an underlying belief that "my" awakening will be violent (like before), that this way is the path for me. When I was ill before I had an awakening/glimpse/opening or whatever you want to call it and as I got better the experiences and 'closeness' to no-self agonisingly faded away and the self-story took strronger hold again. It truely was agonising to watch it all slowly fall out of your grasp. But hey this is all story right :) A story that leads to the belief that a brutal awakening is the only way out of this self-mare.

Anxiety is a disorder based on fear. There may well be some physical/nutritional component to it but its certainly fueled and focused on the "self" in my opinion. Fear of something bad happening to the self, fear of what others think about the you, fear of the you in some future bad scenario, etc. Coupled with those fears there are the fears of the unknown and having no control. In my opinion anxiety is very much borne out of the belief in self.

In that respect when the belief in self falls away then it will be easier to recognise the thought patterns involved with anxiety and there won't be the attachment to the character. There won't be the identification with the the little "me" victim.

It's good to see such an underlying belief and set it aside or look through it, otherwise it ends up shaping the experience.

One of my teachers would say, "What if everything you ever thought was true about you, wasn't?" - now, whilst I wouldn't necessarily recommend this approach to anyone else :), it did give the sense that beliefs can be set aside which opens up a different approach to inquiry with less expectations & judgements.

Seeing through "self" does make it easier to detach/dis-identify from thoughts/beliefs as being mine.

Speak soon,
John

[ZenOfchaos]

It's good to see such an underlying belief and set it aside or look through it, otherwise it ends up shaping the experience.

One of my teachers would say, "What if everything you ever thought was true about you, wasn't?" - now, whilst I wouldn't necessarily recommend this approach to anyone else :), it did give the sense that beliefs can be set aside which opens up a different approach to inquiry with less expectations & judgements.

this is a welcome question in my life :) Wish it was easier to break that bond between thought and belief.

But then is that something that needs to 'be worked on' or is it something that naturally is seen through after liberation?

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi,

It's good to see such an underlying belief and set it aside or look through it, otherwise it ends up shaping the experience.

One of my teachers would say, "What if everything you ever thought was true about you, wasn't?" - now, whilst I wouldn't necessarily recommend this approach to anyone else :), it did give the sense that beliefs can be set aside which opens up a different approach to inquiry with less expectations & judgements.

this is a welcome question in my life :) Wish it was easier to break that bond between thought and belief.

But then is that something that needs to 'be worked on' or is it something that naturally is seen through after liberation?

I would say, it's about small shifts of awareness to loosen this little fixation of "me looking out at the world".

When I heard that "What if..." question, I remember going for a walk, and letting the question exist as a possibility within me. It's the tiniest of shifts. Don't work on anything. You're an explorer in the field of awareness. You have your torch. Shine it in places it's never been pointed and have a good look around.

It's like this experience of I looking out - in contrast to - relaxing the focus and noticing the appearances around coming in to "no-one".

You sit and explore it within yourself each time awareness is loosening and shifting little by little.

Speak soon,
John

[ZenOfchaos]

I would say, it's about small shifts of awareness to loosen this little fixation of "me looking out at the world".

Think the belief that it has to be violent is starting to shift. There is more openess to a gradual or gentle awakening. Ironically I had a showdown with the anxiety last night. It was getting bad and I was in a position where i couldn't really do anything about it. So when the anxiety was there I challenged it. No matter what it threw up I had the courage to really accept it. Mind would often drift off to random tjings but I dragged it back, brought it into attention, seen how it worked. Looked behind it. Tried to find who was anxious. Seen that the self is built up by images of the future. Seen how the feelings and sensations exist without thought about it and how they are just feelings that are there. They don't need a reactive emotional content to go with them.

Something changed during this fight. I dont quite no what. More of an acceptance and less of an over-reaction. Although the next day (yesterday) it felt like I've been hit by a bus. Totally weak exhausted and anxious. It remains to be seen if the showdown had any lasting impact.

When I heard that "What if..." question, I remember going for a walk, and letting the question exist as a possibility within me. It's the tiniest of shifts. Don't work on anything. You're an explorer in the field of awareness. You have your torch. Shine it in places it's never been pointed and have a good look around.

It's like this experience of I looking out - in contrast to - relaxing the focus and noticing the appearances around coming in to "no-one".

You sit and explore it within yourself each time awareness is loosening and shifting little by little.

Speak soon,
John

Sometimes it seems like there is no 'in here' but everything is 'out there'. All stuff happening in the same space.

I can see why people say we are awareness itself. Are those people correct or are they just identifying with awareness? Is this what Tolle refers to when he talks of presence? I know he likes to talk about space. It would nice to have the space between being aware of things and those things happening.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi,

I would say, it's about small shifts of awareness to loosen this little fixation of "me looking out at the world".

Think the belief that it has to be violent is starting to shift. There is more openess to a gradual or gentle awakening. Ironically I had a showdown with the anxiety last night. It was getting bad and I was in a position where i couldn't really do anything about it. So when the anxiety was there I challenged it. No matter what it threw up I had the courage to really accept it. Mind would often drift off to random tjings but I dragged it back, brought it into attention, seen how it worked. Looked behind it. Tried to find who was anxious. Seen that the self is built up by images of the future. Seen how the feelings and sensations exist without thought about it and how they are just feelings that are there. They don't need a reactive emotional content to go with them.

Good work. Proper courage that. To face the fear simply, open-handedly, with nothing to defend.

Something changed during this fight. I dont quite no what. More of an acceptance and less of an over-reaction. Although the next day (yesterday) it felt like I've been hit by a bus. Totally weak exhausted and anxious. It remains to be seen if the showdown had any lasting impact.

You've brought about an important shift of awareness and it'll settle soon enough. Don't worry, when you open the heart to fears like that, new knowledge comes with that. It may not be obvious, but it'll be felt.

When I heard that "What if..." question, I remember going for a walk, and letting the question exist as a possibility within me. It's the tiniest of shifts. Don't work on anything. You're an explorer in the field of awareness. You have your torch. Shine it in places it's never been pointed and have a good look around.

Sometimes it seems like there is no 'in here' but everything is 'out there'. All stuff happening in the same space.

I can see why people say we are awareness itself. Are those people correct or are they just identifying with awareness? Is this what Tolle refers to when he talks of presence? I know he likes to talk about space. It would nice to have the space between being aware of things and those things happening.

For me, there's far too many conclusions made about "awareness" - experience is ever-rich and doesn't enjoy being tied down.

So, there's the experiencing of something and the words that show up are "presence", "awareness".

Continue to notice such experiences of presence/awareness as they show up, and from time to time, checking whether a noticer is required or necessary to notice.

Speak soon,
John

[ZenOfchaos]

Hi,
Good work. Proper courage that. To face the fear simply, open-handedly, with nothing to defend.

thanks. it took effort and was probably one of the reasons the body/mind was so exhausted the next day.

You've brought about an important shift of awareness and it'll settle soon enough. Don't worry, when you open the heart to fears like that, new knowledge comes with that. It may not be obvious, but it'll be felt.

Hope so :)

For me, there's far too many conclusions made about "awareness" - experience is ever-rich and doesn't enjoy being tied down.

So, there's the experiencing of something and the words that show up are "presence", "awareness".

Continue to notice such experiences of presence/awareness as they show up, and from time to time, checking whether a noticer is required or necessary to notice.

Speak soon,
John

Will do John.

A bit random but I was looking at thought again and thought I'd share.

Thought

Everything in the sensory world is taken in by the sense organs. At a base level there is consciousness of all sensory experience without influence of the mind's analytic faculties.

Parts of the mind interpret what is experienced, link experience to memories, associates things together (simply or abstractly), adds a semantic meaning to things, conceptualises things, commentates on what is experienced, and analyses the incoming information.

So thoughts are imagination, interpretation, meaning, concepts and analysis.

thoughts aren't thunk by a thinker. They are not chosen and thoughts do not think.

To put this together if no-one is picking and choosing thoughts then thoughts are simply the visual or linguistic representation of the 'end product' of a brain process. We cannot see the brain processing information nor is there anyone to do the processing. There is only awareness of the end product of a piece of information beng processed. further, these processes occur not in one place in the brain but in different areas according to the information being processed and the parameters of the situation. So different thoughts represent different end products of different processes. This explains why we get conflicting thoughts and abstract thoughts.

Thoughts appear in working memory because this is like the information meeting point, possibly like a relay station where information from different processes might arrive and be taken by other processes for further analysis.

So really an inner dialogue can be rather misguided becuase its like grabbing words in a bowl of alphabetti spaghetti! And its probabky why its easy to get lost in thought and why we find it easier to write things down or speak things aloud to make thoughts more streamlined and focused to the task.

Maybe then mind will realise that compulsive thinking isn't neccessary or even productive! Quite the opposite should be the case. Relaxed thinking will be less tinking but more relevant and creative.Are you listening mind? :)

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi,

A bit random but I was looking at thought again and thought I'd share.

Thought

Everything in the sensory world is taken in by the sense organs. At a base level there is consciousness of all sensory experience without influence of the mind's analytic faculties.

Parts of the mind interpret what is experienced, link experience to memories, associates things together (simply or abstractly), adds a semantic meaning to things, conceptualises things, commentates on what is experienced, and analyses the incoming information.

So thoughts are imagination, interpretation, meaning, concepts and analysis.

thoughts aren't thunk by a thinker. They are not chosen and thoughts do not think.

To put this together if no-one is picking and choosing thoughts then thoughts are simply the visual or linguistic representation of the 'end product' of a brain process. We cannot see the brain processing information nor is there anyone to do the processing. There is only awareness of the end product of a piece of information beng processed. further, these processes occur not in one place in the brain but in different areas according to the information being processed and the parameters of the situation. So different thoughts represent different end products of different processes. This explains why we get conflicting thoughts and abstract thoughts.

Thoughts appear in working memory because this is like the information meeting point, possibly like a relay station where information from different processes might arrive and be taken by other processes for further analysis.

So really an inner dialogue can be rather misguided becuase its like grabbing words in a bowl of alphabetti spaghetti! And its probabky why its easy to get lost in thought and why we find it easier to write things down or speak things aloud to make thoughts more streamlined and focused to the task.

Maybe then mind will realise that compulsive thinking isn't neccessary or even productive! Quite the opposite should be the case. Relaxed thinking will be less tinking but more relevant and creative.Are you listening mind? :)

If you set aside any kind of judgement, life is smooth as silk. The friction comes when it's perceived not to be going as I would like it to go. Even that friction works smoothly, the "I", internal dialogue - all works like a dream. (no pun intended).

To put this together if no-one is picking and choosing thoughts then thoughts are simply the visual or linguistic representation of the 'end product' of a brain process.

All that is noticed is what appears. Who's to say that thinking produced the thought when only the thought showed up? As you mention, how can it be said that "I" or even "no-one" picks and chooses thoughts, when in experience, there is the thought, its simple appearance - then it's gone.

Maybe then mind will realise that compulsive thinking isn't neccessary or even productive! Quite the opposite should be the case. Relaxed thinking will be less tinking but more relevant and creative.Are you listening mind? :)

:)

Speak soon,
John

[ZenOfchaos]

Hi,

If you set aside any kind of judgement, life is smooth as silk. The friction comes when it's perceived not to be going as I would like it to go. Even that friction works smoothly, the "I", internal dialogue - all works like a dream. (no pun intended).

Speak soon,
John

I often wonder how much of the process after liberation is changing your conditioned mind patterns vs them dropping away by themselves. Like Mr Tolle has his methods like practising presence, living in the now, etc. Are these things helpful toward liberation or do they simply begin to occur more naturally AFTER liberation. Anyway..I digress.

Can we look at awareness. I was reading a thread a while back that threw something up.

There is awareness of things (sensations, thoughts, etc). No-thing can be found doing the aware-ing. And if there is awareness of awareness then "I" can't be awareness. So awareness isn't anything because it's a verb. We could replace the word 'awareness' with the word 'experience'. And again in direct experience an experiencer of experience can't be found. Yet experience still exists. lol. i don't even, wut. we could say the body/mind is the experiencer but the body/mind IS experienced. So this aware-ing...is it what Mahashi is referring to when he talked of the "I am" sense. You know, I listened to Tolle in the beginning of my seeker-ing and I think I have been caught up in trying to 'be the awareness' what I assumed he was referring to as the 'silent watcher' - presence. Putting attention on aware-ing and hoping that "I" would become it or something to that effect.

Can you help me look at this closer... to get a clearer handle on an intellectual understanding and a clearer realisation of it in direct experience?

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi,

I often wonder how much of the process after liberation is changing your conditioned mind patterns vs them dropping away by themselves. Like Mr Tolle has his methods like practising presence, living in the now, etc. Are these things helpful toward liberation or do they simply begin to occur more naturally AFTER liberation. Anyway..I digress.

Can we look at awareness. I was reading a thread a while back that threw something up.

There is awareness of things (sensations, thoughts, etc). No-thing can be found doing the aware-ing. And if there is awareness of awareness then "I" can't be awareness. So awareness isn't anything because it's a verb. We could replace the word 'awareness' with the word 'experience'. And again in direct experience an experiencer of experience can't be found. Yet experience still exists. lol. i don't even, wut. we could say the body/mind is the experiencer but the body/mind IS experienced. So this aware-ing...is it what Mahashi is referring to when he talked of the "I am" sense. You know, I listened to Tolle in the beginning of my seeker-ing and I think I have been caught up in trying to 'be the awareness' what I assumed he was referring to as the 'silent watcher' - presence. Putting attention on aware-ing and hoping that "I" would become it or something to that effect.

Can you help me look at this closer... to get a clearer handle on an intellectual understanding and a clearer realisation of it in direct experience?

What is awareness? Not a clue. :)

Yet right now - if you play along - there is seeing, hearing and feeling of stuff that is showing up. If it were a small hairy mammoth that just wandered in, there might be seeing the small hairy mammoth, hearing the small hairy mammoth, perhaps smelling the small hairy mammoth. There may be feelings of surprise and delight that the small hairy mammoth has appeared.

So, it could be said, conventionally, that YOU are AWARE of the small hairy mammoth.

The YOU mentioned here is not the human being that sees, hears and smells the small hairy mammoth, but a character inside the head of the human being that IS, apparently, WHO the human being is. To which the human being might reply, “Whatever.”

When the human being is told to go looking for this YOU, it ends up chasing shadows.

So “awareness” can be used as the name of a capacity the human being has allowing for the noticing of stuff that shows up.

Let's just start here. Any thoughts before we move on?

Best wishes,
John