Looking for a guide

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

What lovely questions. These are so precise in focusing on what's coming up and what's next and unwinding where I'm selfing. These are really useful, and the last few weeks have been so helpful and so appreciated.

Without adding a single thought… does the sensation stay exactly the same?
Or does it flicker, shift, pulse, change intensity, move location?

It flickers and moves, definitely.

Does the sensation intensify, stabilize into something more solid, become more “defined”?
What’s actually happening?
Is thought “refreshing” the sensation?
Or is thought:
naming it → fixing it → looping it → making it feel continuous

Sensation seems to be like watching a fire. It constantly changes, occasionally a large flame comes up, or a bunch of sparks, but constantly shifting sensations flowing through the body.

I am curious why sensations seem to need attention to process.

I do think thought refreshes the sensations, but I can see that it doesn’t do so in a very helpful way. I think there’s a difference between anger sensations at the moment something happens versus anger sensations when you think back on the thing that happened. I have a sense that when something happens in the moment, or when it is triggered, or when it spontaneously arises, that those sensations can be felt and will release themselves. If it's mind-led or thought-led, I don’t think the body can access the sensation in the same way and it can’t be released.

I often try to stay with a sensation, especially an unpleasant one, but I think this might be inadvertently adding thought to it. I end up imagining what the sensation was like when it first hit, and start hallucinating that on top of what’s already there, while reminding myself of the thoughts that first triggered the sensation. Staying with something, without adding thought is actually pretty difficult.

I think there’s also another part of me that gets quite bored staying with sensation and can only do so if it also makes up a story about the sensation. Motivation for meditation, or even awareness, comes from imagining that it’s fixing some perceived flaw. The sense of self involved in fixing/being fixed is alive and well… or at least seen.

At the same time, thoughts tend to trigger things that need resolution. If I relax and let my mind wander, in not very much time the thoughts will go to an area that feels unsettled, and produces a strong emotional response.

When sensation is left alone — truly alone — does it need to go away?
Or does it naturally move?

It naturally moves.

The mind and the self-improvement project like to interrupt here. A sensation comes up and it says “let’s fix this” and it grabs on and generates thoughts endlessly.

I’m curious about the difference between leaving things alone versus staying with them. Part of me very conscientiously stays with feelings, especially strong ones. I have questions about whether attention is needed to support releasing things. If anything, there might be too much attention on sensations (and accidentally, thought added to increase focus and clarity of the feeling). I’m wondering if I should relax that feeling more and add more ease to that practice.

So when grief about the world appears, is the world here? Or is it image + sensation + thought… here?

Image and sensation and thought.

This is a really interesting one that I’m going to do more work with - the assumption of others, the hallucination of being able to feel their pain, the overwhelm of the illusion of sharing in their suffering. In one sense, we all do, but at the same time, there’s just DE. This feels simultaneously blasphemous and freeing. There’s a little seeing but not clear seeing yet.

That sensation you called “grief” or “anger”, before the label lands… what is it?

Energy patterns. I’ve been playing with “how do I know I’m angry/frustrated/depressed” and once the label drops, sometimes the energy has direction, like a tightening jaw, or a lump in the throat that point to something the body wants. After a few seconds with the energy, these pass (unless refreshed by thought).

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie,
Good. Let’s cut through a few of the subtle confusions you’re touching.

I am curious why sensations seem to need attention to process.

No. That whole idea of processing, releasing, needing attention — look at it carefully:
Is that coming from sensation… or from thought trying to manage sensation?
When a sensation appears — before anything is done with it — is it incomplete? Is it stuck? Does it ask for help?
Or is it already moving, changing, alive?
You already saw:

When left alone, it naturally moves.

That’s the answer.

I think there’s a difference between anger sensations at the moment something happens versus anger sensations when you think back on the thing that happened. I have a sense that when something happens in the moment, or when it is triggered, or when it spontaneously arises, that those sensations can be felt and will release themselves. If it's mind-led or thought-led, I don’t think the body can access the sensation in the same way and it can’t be released.

Yes! Look very closely at this distinction you’re brushing up against — it’s an important one.
When something happens in the moment, there is a surge — heat, tightness, pressure, movement, maybe the jaw tightens, the chest contracts, energy is clearly alive. That’s what gets labeled “anger.”
Now watch what happens next. That wave passes — you’ve already seen it does. And then… Thought comes in: “that was anger”, “I’m still angry”, “this shouldn’t have happened”. And along with those thoughts, there are mental sensations - faint echoes of the original energy, imagined tension, recreated feeling (like the imaginary piece of chocolate)
But look carefully… Is that the same as the original surge? Or is it more like remembering a fire versus being in the fire?
So check this directly next time. When the initial energy passes… What is actually here?
Is there still raw, physical intensity? Or is it mostly thought + mental replay + subtle sensation?
And even more precisely… Without the thought “this is anger” what is left?
This is where things get sticky. The mind says “this is still happening”, but often what’s actually here is a memory/a narrative/a recreated echo - a big fat story. Not the original event. So don’t try to get rid of it., but just notice:
Is this alive, immediate sensation? Or is this thought + echo?

A sensation comes up and it says “let’s fix this” and it grabs on and generates thoughts endlessly.

Pause right there. Does a sensation actually say anything?
Or is there just a sensation, then a thought appearing that says “let’s fix this”
Split it cleanly:
Sensation appears (tightness, heat, pressure — silent, wordless)
Thought appears “this is a problem” , “let’s fix this”
More thoughts follow looping, planning, analyzing
Now look: Where is the one doing the grabbing?
Is there a sensation doing something? A thought, doing something?
Or just a sensation appearing, a thought appearing, more thought appearing
That feeling of “it grabs on and generates thoughts endlessly”, check it directly:
Is there actually something grabbing? Or is that another thought describing what’s happening?
Nothing is grabbing anything. There is no manager, fixer, controller. There is even no separation between thought and sensation without the labels.
So next time it happens, don’t try to stop it. Just slow it down and look:
What is actually doing something here? Can a sensation initiate a plan?

I’m curious about the difference between leaving things alone versus staying with them. Part of me very conscientiously stays with feelings, especially strong ones. I have questions about whether attention is needed to support releasing things. If anything, there might be too much attention on sensations (and accidentally, thought added to increase focus and clarity of the feeling). I’m wondering if I should relax that feeling more and add more ease to that practice.

You’re noticing something very important: “I try to stay with sensation… but I might be adding thought.”
Yes. “Staying with” can secretly become focusing, monitoring, recreating, remembering, trying to intensify, or trying to complete. That’s not staying. That’s interference. So check this difference very cleanly:
Staying (what the mind thinks it should do): is holding attention on it, keeping it in place, tracking it, and subtly controlling
Leaving alone (what actually happens) involves no effort to hold, no effort to push away, no effort to maintain, it comes, it moves, it goes.
So the real question is … When you “stay with it”… is there effort?
If yes — that’s thought. You said it yourself:

I end up imagining what it was like when it first hit…

Exactly. That’s not the sensation. That’s thought, recreating a memory and layering it on top of what is here. That’s why it feels like it doesn’t resolve, it loops, and it becomes sticky. Because it’s no longer direct.

Part of me gets bored staying with sensation.

Good. Look there.
Boredom = what?
Right now is boredom a problem? Or is it just another sensation + thought saying “this is boring”?
And more directly:
Who needs this to be interesting?

Thoughts trigger things that need resolution

Careful. Look very precisely:
When thought goes to something “unsettled” and sensation arise, Is it that something needs resolution… or just that sensation appeared?
That “needs resolution” is already a story/ a goal/ a project
What you actually have is sensation + thought about sensation. Nothing more. What is needed is not resolution but simple looking - not goal oriented, just simple observation of what is really here and what is not :). See the difference?
This is the most important line you wrote:

Energy patterns… and after a few seconds they pass (unless refreshed by thought).

Stay here. Don’t complicate this.
You’ve already seen the whole mechanism: sensation arises, it moves naturally, thought labels it, thought loops it, sensation appears continuous. Next time something strong comes up, don’t stay with it, don’t leave it, don’t process it, don’t fix it, or don’t understand it. Just check:
Right now — is anything being done to this sensation?
If yes — that’s thought. If no — watch what happens.
And finally:

There might be too much attention.

Yes.There is too much doing disguised as attention. So soften this completely. Just let it be exactly as it is — without touching it. Even “attention” can be touching.
Next time something arises, report exactly what happens when nothing interferes.
Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

That whole idea of processing, releasing, needing attention — look at it carefully:
Is that coming from sensation… or from thought trying to manage sensation?
When a sensation appears — before anything is done with it — is it incomplete? Is it stuck? Does it ask for help?
Or is it already moving, changing, alive?

That is definitely thought and definitely the way that the sense of self in the form of “manager” appears. There’s not just a thought, but a habit, an entire conditioned script. Do this right. Do it efficiently. Put in the effort and it’ll pay off in the future. Work hard now and fix everything here that’s wrong. And this hamster-wheel of a thought chain gets triggered every time an unpleasant thought or sensation comes up. I know the answer is to “just be” and not to “fix, heal, remove”. It’s clear, and a habit problem. Thanks for pointing it out.

Something else is happening too. I see the sensation and it feels personal, and it feels like my sensation. I looked around to see how it was owned, and then it became clear (again? I think I knew this but it felt like a slightly different angle on it) that it wasn’t mine. It was analogous to looking out a window at a tree, or a parking lot, or beach, and thinking the view was also mine. So while the sensation was in direct experience, the assumption of it being “mine” dropped.

I then looked at thoughts - it’s clear that they think themselves and are just from conditioning. I know I don’t control them, but they still feel personal and owned, like they’re my intellectual property. I looked around and couldn’t find where the assumption that connected thoughts to the sense of “mine.” The sense of ownership for sensations is starting to drop off. The sense of ownership for thoughts remains, but maybe it’s starting to be questioned somewhere.

Is that the same as the original surge? Or is it more like remembering a fire versus being in the fire?
So check this directly next time. When the initial energy passes… What is actually here?
Is there still raw, physical intensity? Or is it mostly thought + mental replay + subtle sensation?
And even more precisely… Without the thought “this is anger” what is left?

It’s like remembering the fire, or imagining the chocolate. It’s not the real sensation. And it feels like real anger burns clean in a way…. When it’s felt, it releases, and there’s no residue. But when it’s fed by thoughts, it’s never gone. It can’t leave; there’s a hook in the mind holding it in place. And the mind seems very capable of making the body experience unpleasant sensations like anger, but not of releasing them, and they cycle through, over and over, very annoyingly.

Is this alive, immediate sensation? Or is this thought + echo?

There are a number of thoughts + echos that cause suffering. I suppose if there is no sound to make a new echo, the reverberating sounds eventually die down.

Does a sensation actually say anything?
Or is there just a sensation, then a thought appearing that says “let’s fix this”

Yes, okay, good point, that’s a thought saying that.

Where is the one doing the grabbing?
Is there a sensation doing something? A thought, doing something?
Or just a sensation appearing, a thought appearing, more thought appearing

The mind is grabbing, the thoughts are initiating and starting a thought chain.

That feeling of “it grabs on and generates thoughts endlessly”, check it directly:
Is there actually something grabbing? Or is that another thought describing what’s happening?

There is a sense of "I" grabbing and "I" fixing.

I sit with the question of “who is trying to fix whom” quite often and the mind just spins. There’s a sense of self in the fixer and a sense of self in the fixee but they both just disappear when looked at.

So next time it happens, don’t try to stop it. Just slow it down and look:
What is actually doing something here? Can a sensation initiate a plan?

Yeah… I’ve been being much softer with this this week and letting sensations come and go. They’re not emergencies and they don’t have agendas or to-do lists. They don’t actually come with orders or instructions I need to follow. They are just sensations.

There’s some real resistance to sensations and wanting to “fix” them. I think a big part of me would rather suffer by wrestling with sensations and attempting to control them than just do nothing when they show up. It’s been actually really surprising to notice that this week. I would rather do something that involves clear suffering if it means that there are actions I can take. That sense of “doing” in the face of suffering is incredibly sticky. There’s been a lot of grief, an opening, and a huge release of energy over that this week. It was a blind spot for me, for sure.

You’re noticing something very important: “I try to stay with sensation… but I might be adding thought.”
Yes. “Staying with” can secretly become focusing, monitoring, recreating, remembering, trying to intensify, or trying to complete. That’s not staying. That’s interference. So check this difference very cleanly:
Staying (what the mind thinks it should do): is holding attention on it, keeping it in place, tracking it, and subtly controlling
Leaving alone (what actually happens) involves no effort to hold, no effort to push away, no effort to maintain, it comes, it moves, it goes.
So the real question is … When you “stay with it”… is there effort?
If yes — that’s thought.

I love this pointer. You summed up exactly where I am. So just stay here, but without effort.

(Part of me gets bored staying with a sensation) Boredom = what?
Right now is boredom a problem? Or is it just another sensation + thought saying “this is boring”?
And more directly:
Who needs this to be interesting?

Boredom is sensation and thought (a thought that tends to be believed, but really shouldn’t be).

I like the question of “who needs this to be interesting.” Who, indeed, is the one who has any preferences at all?

When thought goes to something “unsettled” and sensation arise, Is it that something needs resolution… or just that sensation appeared?
That “needs resolution” is already a story/ a goal/ a project
What you actually have is sensation + thought about sensation. Nothing more. What is needed is not resolution but simple looking - not goal oriented, just simple observation of what is really here and what is not :

This landed so hard right now, especially the part about creating stories, goals and projects. That is so obviously going in the wrong direction.

Right now — is anything being done to this sensation?

No. It’s just here.

There is too much doing disguised as attention. So soften this completely. Just let it be exactly as it is — without touching it. Even “attention” can be touching.

This is exactly it. Just letting it be. Creating space around it. Allowing, and it moves and shifts and expresses.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie

This is exactly it. Just letting it be. Creating space around it. Allowing, and it moves and shifts and expresses.

Good. Now don’t turn this into understanding.
What is creating space? Is there actually something doing that?
Or is that another refined version of “I am handling this correctly now”
Look carefully. A sensation appears. Before any label, before “allowing”,” space”, “this is okay”, what is there? When you say “I let it be”, is there a sensation, a thought saying “I’m letting this be”? Or is there an actual entity doing something?
Find it. Not conceptually—right now.

There’s some real resistance to sensations and wanting to “fix” them. I think a big part of me would rather suffer by wrestling with sensations and attempting to control them than just do nothing when they show up.

Stop there.
Who would rather?
Not as a concept—look

They are not emergencies. They don’t have agendas.

Good. Now go one step further:
Does anything here need to relate to the sensation at all?
Not even “letting it be.” Because even “allowing” can be interference.
So check! Without doing anything, without allowing, without resisting, without watching, what happens to the sensation?
You already saw it:

It moves and shifts and expresses.

So what exactly was ever required?
A sensation appears. A thought appears. Is there anything managing this?
Or is “managing” just another thought appearing after the fact?
Don’t answer from memory. Look now. What is actually happening?
Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

Thanks for the questions. Thought provoking, and poking something that at times doesn’t want to be poked. I’ve been returning to this a lot this week, and it’s been really helpful.

Now don’t turn this into understanding.

Yeah…. There’s such grasping for understanding, for a path, for knowing where “I” am on the path and that there has been progress and that there is an end.

But there is no understanding. There is just this. And to see that you have to release the need for understanding and stop chasing the thing you’re chasing. Probably out of sheer utter exhaustion and not out of understanding that there is no understanding.

What is creating space? Is there actually something doing that?
Or is that another refined version of “I am handling this correctly now”
Look carefully. A sensation appears. Before any label, before “allowing”,” space”, “this is okay”, what is there? When you say “I let it be”, is there a sensation, a thought saying “I’m letting this be”? Or is there an actual entity doing something?

There was absolutely action, doing, and a self doing it, and trying to do it right. But that self was just a series of thoughts, and the urge to “do it right” was a thought-habit.

Who would rather? (wrestle with sensations instead of allowing)

The one who doesn’t want to release the dream of understanding. And that one is a thought - a thought that says “you can understand” and “understanding will set you free” and “when you understand you won’t suffer” and “if you do this really, really correctly you’ll understand” and “when Rali talks about seeing, she really means understanding.”

Does anything here need to relate to the sensation at all?
Not even “letting it be.” Because even “allowing” can be interference.
So check! Without doing anything, without allowing, without resisting, without watching, what happens to the sensation?

Nothing needs to actually go on with it. It doesn’t need to be coddled or comforted or anything.

I’ve been really looking at this all week, and today something shifted a bit. Instead of “being with” sensations - which involves contraction, focusing, some sort of control, and perhaps care - the focus has changed to awareness being aware. It feels like a dropping back, with no contraction. Thoughts are still there, sensations are still there, but they are arising in a way that doesn’t feel owned. The habits of “I need to deal with this correctly” comes up but it enters awareness without being grabbed. There’s space around it and it’s not believed.

I see how annoyingly simple this is and I’ve been told this 1000 times. I’ve also learned this before and benefited from this before, but perhaps a different layer is understanding this now, or maybe that’s a story.

And frustratingly, ironically (and perhaps it’s maybe funny?), this becomes another way of doing. The mind tries to control this, tries to claim this, says “I’m sinking back” and “I’m being awareness” and “I’m letting this be.” The urge to grasp and claim and control is strong.

So what exactly was ever required? (because sensations shift and move on their own).
A sensation appears. A thought appears. Is there anything managing this?
Or is “managing” just another thought appearing after the fact?

Managing and control are just thoughts and habits.