Request to be guided

[tfarrah]

Dear Ghata,

All yesterday morning I saw that thoughts are vacuous. Or maybe I just remembered seeing it. Either way, my actions and experience reflected that knowledge. But as the day progressed, that knowledge faded, and my actions and experience reflected a sense that I am somebody.

When the question arises for me, "Have I seen?" I check my answer to the question, "Am I 100% sure there is no self?" to see if the answer "no" arises as immediately as it does for the question about Santa Claus. It does not.

Do you have any instructions for me today? Shall I continue re-reading our dialog? Examining the nature of thoughts?

Are mental images or stories real in the sense that they can be experienced with the 5 senses?

No, they are not. So the simple answer is that I do not experience content (with the 5 senses).

Can the present moment be any different than it is?

Of course it cannot. The amazing corollary is that, since the next moment is determined by conditions in the present moment, there is no way to influence it.

I chose some questions from p. 4 to answer again:

Next time thought says it isn't as good, allow the not so nice sensations to be there.
Explore them. Where are they in the body? What do they exactly feel like?

Thought says today isn't as good as yesterday. Sensations are in throat and chest. Constriction. As attention rests on them, they change, they soften. Release is felt in the head, waves. The sensations are beautiful now.

Do they have labels when felt as sensations?

Apparently, the label "beautiful" arose.

Is there a feeler and something that is felt? Or is there just feeling?

Just feeling.

Are they still uncomfortable when experienced as pure sensations, without a thought saying so?

Not at all.

I wonder what conditions gave rise to the thought, "today not as good as yesterday"?

Love,
Terry

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

I wonder what conditions gave rise to the thought, "today not as good as yesterday"?

:-))

Yes, unpleasant feelings will turn into something very different when simply felt. Thoughts can give them whatever name, on the level of sensations, sensations just are.

Was the label "beautiful" part of the sensations or did come from somewhere else?

How does it feel not to be able to control what is happening?

I suggest that for the day continue the re-reading of our dialogue. You are doing well :-).

Much love,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

On 03 Mar we said,

I asked myself this question several times today. There is no me at all. I was not correct to say that "there is a sense that the voice in the head is me".

Let this insight settle and let's look at all the facets that are not clear yet.

I ask myself now, is there a sense that the voice in the head is "me"? What arises first is frustration, sleepiness ... awareness of strong pulsing in the right throat ... the thought, "I don't know how to answer this! What does it mean for there to be such a 'sense'? I do know there is a voice in the head. Words. For a brief moment the thought arose, "how can these words be me? how can they be anything at all other than words, other than what they are?"

I wonder what are the facets that are not clear yet.

On 04 Mar I wrote about my expectations:

I expect to feel lighter and freer. I expect to feel less driven to maintain my self-image. I expect to have a more clear, direct experience of things in my environment

I don't have any of these expectations anymore, largely due to living with Zarina post-gate.

05 Mar:

I am already sometimes having some of the experience that I have expected: sometimes I find myself joyfully receiving each sensory input (including thoughts) and immediately letting go of each as not-self. During these times I am relatively free of fear.

This is a lovely description of a clear state. Could ALL feelings and thoughts be experienced this way?

I never answered your question. For some people, it seems that ALL feelings and thoughts are experienced this way. For me, they are not, and the answer is "no," they cannot be for me, because they are not for me and this cannot be any different than it is. One can ask, is it under my control whether ALL feelings and thoughts are experienced this way? There is a fantasy that it is. In fact, it seems there is a grand story operating: I have been granted a valuable ability, the ability to let go of thoughts/feelings as not-self, but I have misbehaved and am thus not worthy to retain this ability, therefore it is slipping away. I have often found myself learning a new skill or habit, then not using that skill or seeing the habit slip away while experiencing the subtle thought, "I am not worthy of something this good."

There is an urge to erase the paragraph I just wrote.

It seems possible that I am now habitually receiving each sensory input (including thoughts) and immediately letting go of each as not-self, but not experiencing joy and therefore not noticing what's happening.

Sleepy, time to go to bed.

Love,
Terry

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

unfortunately I won't be able to answer today, I will be back tomorrow.

Much love,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Dear Ghata,

I will look forward to when you are able to write again. You are wonderfully consistent.

This morning in conversation with my partners I tried looking at how thoughts arise. It seems much harder to look in the course of conversation, yet it seems that what happens in the course of conversation contributes to belief in a separate self.

I noticed a sequence of events:
An uncomfortable sensation arose
A nearly wordless thought arose, which, if I were to put it into words, would be, "Let me search for a pleasant story."
A set of sensations I label "effort" arose: constriction of breathing, constriction in the back of the throat. Also, mild agitation or confusion, and the thought, "I want to observe whether I am able to actually choose a thought or make a certain thought arise, but it seems difficult to observe this."
Seeming to be at a decision point between a doing that I'd call "searching for a pleasant story" and just observing. Agitation.
"OK, a pleasant story is not arising by itself, so I will go ahead and make it arise."
Again, sensations labeled "effort"
Then, a series of possible pleasant stories.
Then, "Yes, this story will serve, it is quite pleasant" (again, though, almost wordless) as a story arose that triggered pleasant sensations of relaxation.
Then, a story played in the mind, along with sensations of effort and pleasure.

As I write this, it is just a series of sensations and thoughts, but while it was happening, I could not see it as anything other than "I searched the memory for a pleasant story, then told myself the story."

Can you help me with this inquiry?

Thank you for all you do.

Terry

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

thank you for all this valuable insight. I will address you last post next time, otherwise this one gets too long.

I ask myself now, is there a sense that the voice in the head is "me"? What arises first is frustration, sleepiness ... awareness of strong pulsing in the right throat ... the thought, "I don't know how to answer this! What does it mean for there to be such a 'sense'? I do know there is a voice in the head. Words. For a brief moment the thought arose, "how can these words be me? how can they be anything at all other than words, other than what they are?"

I wonder what are the facets that are not clear yet.

It isn't unclear that the words are not YOU. What happened here is that you already have gone beyond the original answer in the thread and don't understand what you wrote back then. It shows in the sentence: "What does it mean for there to be such a 'sense'." You don't know any longer what that means. Good :-)

It seems possible that I am now habitually receiving each sensory input (including thoughts) and immediately letting go of each as not-self, but not experiencing joy and therefore not noticing what's happening.

Very good :-). There is no way to manipulate into feeling everything joyfully. Still everything can be felt or noticed. There is even no need to let go of anything as it passes on it's own. And who would be able to let go of them?

In fact, it seems there is a grand story operating: I have been granted a valuable ability, the ability to let go of thoughts/feelings as not-self, but I have misbehaved and am thus not worthy to retain this ability, therefore it is slipping away. I have often found myself learning a new skill or habit, then not using that skill or seeing the habit slip away while experiencing the subtle thought, "I am not worthy of something this good."

There is an urge to erase the paragraph I just wrote.

Good you didn't :-)

This is very important. Let's have a look.

You already wrote that it is a grand story. The punishment for some perceived misbehaviour (which one?) is the thought that "I am not worthy of something this good".

Which I does the thought refer to? Is there anybody who could not be worthy of something this good? Or are this just words, an old story reappearing?


Much love,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Dear Ghata,

You already wrote that it is a grand story. The punishment for some perceived misbehaviour (which one?) is the thought that "I am not worthy of something this good". Which I does the thought refer to? Is there anybody who could not be worthy of something this good? Or are this just words, an old story reappearing?

At first the thought arose, "I don't know how to answer this relying only on direct experience. Do I have to spend 5 minutes searching my environs, inside the body and out, for this I?"

Then I remembered an earlier piece of our dialog when I didn't know how to answer a question, and I just sat with it and observed what arose.

What arises is thought with this content: "There is no I. There are activities, thoughts, emotions arising and passing, happenings, body moving hither and thither, speech, lots of speech, lots of thoughts. Thoughts with lots of stories. There is getting up, eating, going to work, lots of thoughts, coming home from work and eating, planning to avoid pain and obtain pleasure, going to bed, and sleeping. There is birth, living, and returning to the earth."

Regarding the message that you didn't respond to. I wonder if the answer is that seeing clearly does not mean seeing clearly all the time. Conditions arise (for example, sometimes, social interaction) that are not conducive to clear seeing in the moment.

Love,
Terry

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

I love your analysis!

Regarding the message that you didn't respond to. I wonder if the answer is that seeing clearly does not mean seeing clearly all the time. Conditions arise (for example, sometimes, social interaction) that are not conducive to clear seeing in the moment.

I couldn't have written a better answer :-)

Then I remembered an earlier piece of our dialog when I didn't know how to answer a question, and I just sat with it and observed what arose.

Great! That is the way to go :-)

What arises is thought with this content: "There is no I. There are activities, thoughts, emotions arising and passing, happenings, body moving hither and thither, speech, lots of speech, lots of thoughts. Thoughts with lots of stories. There is getting up, eating, going to work, lots of thoughts, coming home from work and eating, planning to avoid pain and obtain pleasure, going to bed, and sleeping. There is birth, living, and returning to the earth."

Right.

Can you find a YOU in direct experience that is unworthy of seeing through the illusion of self?

Is there any reality in this story of not being worthy?


Much love,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Can you find a YOU in direct experience that is unworthy of seeing through the illusion of self?

No. In my current state of mind, the idea of a person being worthy of anything seems, at first glance, absurd. There is nothing to look for in direct experience.

Is there any reality in this story of not being worthy?

No, none at all, because there is no ME to be worthy or not.

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

are you now allowed to see something this good as seeing through the Illusion of self?


Much love,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Dear Ghata,

Thank you for your steady and loving support.

are you now allowed to see something this good as seeing through the Illusion of self?

No, because there is no ME.
There is no so-called bad behavior or unworthiness standing in the way of seeing.

I reviewed page 3 just now. I had already reviewed it, but since on that day I'd reviewed 4 or 5 pages, it seemed useful to go over this single page again.

No spicy comments arose this time. The part that most drew my attention was this, after you'd asked me to take a field trip outdoors:

I tried to keep attention outward. Still, thoughts were prominent and sticky; they drew the attention; attention was often absorbed in the thoughts. I tried to notice that everything was just happening on its own. I didn't notice anything new. My experience wasn't any different than it usually is walking to work. Even the shifts I reported two days ago (greater sense of things just happening, less sense of doer, immediate seeing of the "I" as simply thought+sensation, labeling/judging seeming less "me") seemed to be absent.

What strikes me is that I found it important to compare my experience to what it "usually" is/was, and also to compare with what I'd experienced two days previous. There was such a pull to compare that most of what I wrote was comparison. There is a frantic desire to know whether I am making progress and whether I am "done".

Today I really enjoyed noticing again and again that there is no ME. The question arose about 25 times whether I was "done", whether I was really seeing clearly, and whether it was important to decide. Why do I want to be "done" when there is so much to enjoy and learn in either case? There is craving to see my name in blue and to experience the post-gate discussions, but I know from experience that the thrill of that will fade very quickly.

There is also desire to return to practices that I have set aside for this inquiry: The Work of Byron Katie, deep inquiry into the stories of the self that are associated with bodily sensations. A desire to read other threads on the Forum. And a desire to read other writings on nonduality. This inquiry is my first foray into nonduality. But the desire to read is mostly just idle curiosity, craving.

Love,
Terry

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

Today I really enjoyed noticing again and again that there is no ME. The question arose about 25 times whether I was "done", whether I was really seeing clearly, and whether it was important to decide. Why do I want to be "done" when there is so much to enjoy and learn in either case? There is craving to see my name in blue and to experience the post-gate discussions, but I know from experience that the thrill of that will fade very quickly.

Lovely to hear that you are enjoying the inquiry :-). The gate is an important step, still there will be more deepening of what was seen. The groups are very inspiring and also you could be further guided by me or any other guide you choose.
There is nothing wrong with wanting your name in blue or being member of the post-gate groups.


Let's get clear on whether you are done or not. :-)

1. Has it been clearly seen that there has never been a separate individual that could control or own life or anything?

2. Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

3. Is there a separate individual/entity of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?

4. Is there a separate entity that started this investigation?

5. Has there ever been a separate individual doing anything?

6. Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

7. How does it feel to give these answers?

Much love,
Ghata

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

Today I really enjoyed noticing again and again that there is no ME. The question arose about 25 times whether I was "done", whether I was really seeing clearly, and whether it was important to decide. Why do I want to be "done" when there is so much to enjoy and learn in either case? There is craving to see my name in blue and to experience the post-gate discussions, but I know from experience that the thrill of that will fade very quickly.

Lovely to hear that you are enjoying the inquiry :-). The gate is an important step, still there will be more deepening of what was seen. The groups are very inspiring and also you could be further guided by me or any other guide you choose.
There is nothing wrong with wanting your name in blue or being member of the post-gate groups.


Let's get clear on whether you are done or not. :-)

1. Has it been clearly seen that there has never been a separate individual that could control or own life or anything?

2. Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

3. Is there a separate individual/entity of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?

4. Is there a separate entity that started this investigation?

5. Has there ever been a separate individual doing anything?

6. Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

7. How does it feel to give these answers?

Much love,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Dear Ghata,

Let's get clear on whether you are done or not. :-)

Upon reading this, some small fear and resistance arise, along with thoughts, "Like last time, I'm not going to be 100% sure, and then frustration and disappointment will arise."

1. Has it been clearly seen that there has never been a separate individual that could control or own life or anything?

Yes.

2. Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

No.

3. Is there a separate individual/entity of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?

No.

4. Is there a separate entity that started this investigation?

No.

5. Has there ever been a separate individual doing anything?

No.

6. Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

A bunch of questions arose, and I answered them myself. I will share them with you.

Q: There is still a sense that "I" am seeing.
A: Yes, but it is clearly seen that this "I" is just thought + sensation

Q: When did this seeing happen? It seemed gradual.
A: It doesn't matter. It can seem gradual. Possibly the most significant obstacle was concern about this "sense of self". I thought the sense should disappear or be seen clearly 100% of the time. Also, I thought that the shift should be as obvious as when seeing through an optical illusion, with at least a tiny "aha" moment. Zarina had such a moment and I am only realizing right now that this led to significant expectation. This realization is bringing a quiet smile.

Q: Why does it seem like such a non-event for me compared to others?
A: Perhaps because I had already seen through some of the illusion before coming to LU. But it is not known and probably best not to create stories around it.

Q: If someone asked me in the middle of the day, Is there a such thing as a separate self, a soul, a decider? I would not answer "no" as quickly and unthinkingly as if someone asked me "Is there any such thing as Santa Claus?" Does this mean there is some lack of clarity, or that knowledge of no-self is still intellectual to some extent?
A: No, it means that the "I" habits are still strong and momentarily convincing. But, wait a sec. Actually, I think the answer "no" would arise quickly and unthinkingly.

I am doing a thought experiment. I am in an interview with some renowned dhamma teacher, and she asks me, is it clearly seen that there is no separate self? I imagine fear, hesitation, and the thought arising, "I am a fraud if I answer yes."

OK, those are sensations and thoughts. No big deal, right?

7. How does it feel to give these answers?

A little bit sad, a little bit of a relief, a little bit joyful. Gratitude arises.

Love,
Terry

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

lovely :-).

In some people the shift is very gradual. You felt it was. Or where there too many obstacles in the way , that didn't allow to see the shift? Maybe have another look at page 3. In the end it doesn't matter though.


Are you ready for the final questions?

Much love,
Ghata