Would be grateful for a guide

[Alexw]

What I will realise that I haven't got right now is total freedom from suffering. Perhaps my seeing a belief as a belief is not yet as clear as it should be for this to occur.

It doesn't have to occur as this total freedom is already the case. As long as you look for it elsewhere - in a new thought structure? - in the future? - you overlook the current moment, this presence that can and will never suffer.

It really just depends what you believe yourself to be... If you are invested in the belief of being a separate self, some thing that can suffer, then yes, you seem to suffer... But when you look for this one that suffers you can't find him, can you? You only find thoughts about this entity, but not the entity...

What you always find is (just as you said): "that which in the moment knows that thought is there, that which knows the sound, the sight or any possible experience that can be". Can this knowing suffer? Or do thoughts that speak of suffering only arise "in" it? What remains when the suffering goes? This knowing presence... What is there before the suffering happens? This knowing presence... What is there when suffering seems to happen? This knowing presence...

For suffering to happen your conceptual thought mechanism has to engage and invent the sufferer, the "focus" of awareness moves onto thought and seems to get caught there for a while... this is when you seem to suffer (or are caught up in any other kind of thought story). You only have to see clearly what is happening, that you - this aware-ing presence - always remains as it is, it doesn't suffer, it doesn't really do anything. It cannot be diminished by whatever thought shows up. You are, and that's all that can be said. All the rest is story about a sufferer, a doer, a decider...

Is aware presence ever not right here/now? Does it vanish when thought arises? Does it go anywhere when the idea of a sufferer arises? Does thought touch it, change it or diminish it?
The only thing required is to get perfectly clear on what you are... are you this thought-based sufferer? Or does every thought arise in you - in this presence that never wavers? When you relax and simply look, hear, feel... Is there a continuity happening? Something that holds it all together? Not a thought stating B happened because A happened... but rather this non-conceptual knowing/being that is always present. You feel it in/as whatever you experience, you just have to look behind the description, behind the concept...

[placebo8]

I think it is becoming a bit clearer with each reply you send. I have no idea whether being established in this clarity is months or years away (if ever), but I now put aside at least an hour every day to meditate on this "am-ness" that all happenings are a part of. Actually, if I could know that quitting everything and doing nothing but meditating would guarantee this clarity in the foreseeable future this is probably what I'd do. The funny thing is that I bet it doesn't matter one bit what I think I'll do since I'm never really doing anything...

Is aware presence ever not right here/now? Does it vanish when thought arises? Does it go anywhere when the idea of a sufferer arises? Does thought touch it, change it or diminish it?

Take watching a movie as an example - if the awareness is focused on the movie plot, then there is nothing left to focus on the awareness that this is just a movie. Being absorbed and identified in a story makes it appear to be real instead of what actually is real (which can only be this is-ness which experience owes it's existence to) - so, to answer your question - no, thought can't touch it, but when thought is somehow mistaken for presence (by a process I don't understand, as who can make this mistake other than presence itself?) then what is true is forgotten and the illusion takes hold. For me this is currently the default state but I'll just keep hammering at it until something gives... :-)

[Alexw]

I think it is becoming a bit clearer with each reply you send.

OK, great :-)

I have no idea whether being established in this clarity is months or years away (if ever), but I now put aside at least an hour every day to meditate on this "am-ness" that all happenings are a part of.

Well.. what do you find? Can you describe this am-ness?

Actually, if I could know that quitting everything and doing nothing but meditating would guarantee this clarity in the foreseeable future this is probably what I'd do.

Who would it be that has to be established in clarity? Thought? Can thought have real clarity? Or is the only clarity that can be found right in front of your eyes, in this very sound, in this current sensation? Isn't this experience perfectly clear?
You are trying to find a thought based clarity, aren't you? What if this doesn't exist?
Sure, you can have a solid conceptual understanding of this presence/awareness, but the understanding is not it. It is just a description, but no the "thing" itself. You have this conceptual clarity, trust me. Now its time to make the step past thought and give up the need for descriptions and logical explanations...

So... Does this knowing presence have to quit anything, does it need more clarity? Or is this only thought manufacturing an idea, a path, of what has to be done to reach this state of clarity? Maybe the only thing that you reach on this path is the continuation of the belief that you are lacking something?

Look and see what you really are - look now, you are whole and clear all the time - do all these questions, this looking for answers in the mind, really make any sense or are they slowly starting to sound like a giant joke to you? Look at this desperate seeker, this thought structure, is he real? What will thought find that will satisfy it? A better story? Quit all stories and simply look/be this presence. What do you lack? Do you require a great story to simply be?

Take watching a movie as an example - if the awareness is focused on the movie plot, then there is nothing left to focus on the awareness that this is just a movie

Yes, in a way... but you are not watching movies 24x7 and its exactly the same with thought stories, they arise and they go... Most of the time you are actually simply aware of what is. Sure, thoughts will arise, just like other perceptions arise, but the only constant "thing" that remains is the knowing of it all. No matter if a thought story plays out or if you just listen to the birds singing.
There is a massive difference between being completely caught up in the movie of I and "regular" thought that simply states "This is a nice sound. I like these birds... Hmm... I feel hungry. Lets make a sandwich..." Nothing wrong with thought, you don't have to be constantly aware that you are not this thought, it is good enough that this knowing is present when needed. But for it to be present (in the background) it requires the direct seeing of this truth, not just a logical conclusion. This direct seeing is nothing magical, its available all the time. Just don't look as thought, look as "you". Don't try to gain anything from looking - there is nothing to gain. You have it all.

[placebo8]

I have no idea whether being established in this clarity is months or years away (if ever), but I now put aside at least an hour every day to meditate on this "am-ness" that all happenings are a part of.

Well.. what do you find? Can you describe this am-ness?

I feel unqualified to try and describe it, not so much because it is indescribable but more because the quick fleeting glimpses of the essence of everything where there is no "I" anymore and things are ok regardless of what happens are so rare at this point that I feel talking about it would be quite pretentious on my part.

Who would it be that has to be established in clarity? Thought? Can thought have real clarity? Or is the only clarity that can be found right in front of your eyes, in this very sound, in this current sensation? Isn't this experience perfectly clear?

The lack of clarity comes from mistaking thought and experience to be "my thought" and "my experience". Once absorbed in that mistake, then just doing nothing (from that perspective which believes there's an "I" that can do something) isn't effective in snapping out of it - it requires constant attention and reminders to focus on the am-ness rather than being identified with happenings within this am-ness. While being in that state, meditation is a hard and frustrating process as there's a continuous struggle of not taking the thoughts to be what I am.

do all these questions, this looking for answers in the mind, really make any sense or are they slowly starting to sound like a giant joke to you?

That depends on when you ask me... recently there were some points where I laughed to myself during meditation when I saw (not as thought) how thought struggles to gain control, it's unending opinions and chatter and how I contain it without being it. Other times, meditation is a struggle and all there is are replays of conversations (remembered or imagined) or a song that I liked playing over in my mind, or identifications with certain feelings or certain events etc. etc. - the feeling is like trying to keep my head above the water in a raging sea of identification.

Take watching a movie as an example - if the awareness is focused on the movie plot, then there is nothing left to focus on the awareness that this is just a movie

Yes, in a way... but you are not watching movies 24x7 and its exactly the same with thought stories, they arise and they go... Most of the time you are actually simply aware of what is

I wish that were true in my case. As far as thoughts go, it feels quite close to 24x7. Apart from deep sleep, some points during meditation and various moments when I remember to keep alert to see what is going (as opposed to think or feel about what is going on), I think I'm mostly in movieland believing the show...

Funny - just a few minutes ago I saw this silly riddle that goes: "Imagine you're locked in a room with no doors or windows. How do you get out?" Answer: "Stop imagining". Sounds easy, but it's only easy when you're not addicted to imagination. Removing this addiction takes a lot of work...

[Alexw]

it requires constant attention and reminders to focus on the am-ness rather than being identified with happenings within this am-ness. While being in that state, meditation is a hard and frustrating process as there's a continuous struggle of not taking the thoughts to be what I am.

Ok.... and who is it that does not want to be "identified with happenings" or that is in a "struggle of not taking the thoughts to be what I am"?
Does this struggle really exist? Or is it only a story that thought tells itself? Do you think thought will win over thought and eventually escape its own prison? Or is the only way out to see that there really is no one there that needs to escape in the first place?

"Imagine you're locked in a room with no doors or windows. How do you get out?" Answer: "Stop imagining". Sounds easy, but it's only easy when you're not addicted to imagination. Removing this addiction takes a lot of work...

The only work that is required is seeing that there is no one there that is addicted. There are thought processes happening - call them an addiction or ego or whatever - but the key is that they don't belong to anyone. If there is no entity in existence that could be addicted, can there be addiction?
So... instead of trying to remove the addiction (to thought) remove the belief in a separate self. This will cut the root of the problem - the symptoms will heal on their own.
What you are doing is trying to fight the symptoms of the "problem" - but by seeing (again and again) that the problem is purely imaginary - that there is no one here that has a problem - the symptoms will vanish too.

I know this might be difficult to accept - thought wants to do stuff - it wants to find a cure.
But: YOU ARE NOT SICK!
So don't look for something that you will never find. Thought will be there as long as this physical form exists and chasing a state of constant clarity (a state that thought defines as clear! not real clarity which is always here/now) will only keep you chasing your own tail.
Stop trying to get something - look at what you already have.

[placebo8]

Ok.... and who is it that does not want to be "identified with happenings" or that is in a "struggle of not taking the thoughts to be what I am"?

It's all thought of course, including the thought that it was a failed meditation because I was mostly lost in thought and therefore did not notice the thoughts or awareness of them.

Do you think thought will win over thought and eventually escape its own prison?

You have a great way of making this belief sound totally ridiculous :-)

So why doesn't this knowledge just occur? Why doesn't this "I" belief just give up already? I assume it's because after decades of building it, it can't be undone so quickly. It feels that sitting back and waiting for it to dissolve is nothing more than wishful thinking, that there's got to be something that can be done to bring it about - meditate longer, try harder, focus on what is happening more times a day - anything. While from the viewpoint of truth, whatever is going to happen will do so regardless of whether or not there's a belief in someone that's doing something, but knowing this doesn't diminish this fictitious someone's' wish to do something in order to really see it and not only theoretically understand it.

I know this might be difficult to accept - thought wants to do stuff - it wants to find a cure.
But: YOU ARE NOT SICK!

Thought also wants proof - should this also be ignored? How to bridge the theory and practice is my main focus now. Proof should include an end to suffering which would naturally follow an end to the belief in the "I" thought. When physical discomfort starts and is quickly followed by discomfort of the mind, I try and concentrate on the things that are discussed: I try to pinpoint where exactly does this discomfort connect to this "I" that claims it as it's own. It's easier to do this with discomfort as the ego automatically tries to reject it and thus gives me (who?) a better vantage point to try and look at who is causing all the fuss. And yet, even though no one can be located, this fictitious "me" wins since the mental pain reaches a threshold that can't be tolerated.
You might ask "So what, the situation called for a change and a change occurred, for which you then mistakenly took the credit or blame for" - while that is true, the fact is that the sense of suffering existed, and would have continued had the change not occurred so in my dualistic point of view, suffering has "won" over seeing, which means the "I" belief is alive and well here.

[Alexw]

in my dualistic point of view, suffering has "won" over seeing, which means the "I" belief is alive and well here.

Maybe this has nothing to do with an I-belief... what would happen if "seeing" would win? Would the body remain sitting in an uncomfortable position until it dies? Eventually it will move and then this, according to your applied logic, would mean that the I-belief won... Maybe this test is not applicable to find out if there is an I-belief at all?

Look at this I-belief, this belief in an ego:
Is this "ego" more than a bunch of self referential thought patterns? If there is just thought happening then there really is no ego at all, no separate entity that can be found at any time, just thoughts about preferences, judgements, likes and dislikes - all just acquired stories, ideas and beliefs. Agree?
Over time we get caught up in these beliefs and a process we call identification happens - thought identifies itself with its own creation. Suffering is the result. Now thought wants to get rid of this ego, because it believes that it is the reason for suffering. But what is often overlooked is that while this process of seeking might weaken certain beliefs it doesn't get rid of the root of the problem... Thought, ego, cant get rid of itself. It has to be clearly seen that there never was an ego in the first place to "get rid" of. And that this "getting rid of" is not an activity, its rather the end of the activity of searching, of trying to getting rid of the ego, as the realisation happened that "there is nothing to get rid of" - there is just This! :-)

So... Can this "ego" keep you from realisation? Maybe all that happens is that you (=the "ego" thought patterns) belief that realisation is a special event and thus you would have to wait for it to happen? Maybe you wait for a specific achievement - the end of suffering? - to happen? Maybe this is the real problem?
If you drop this belief that realisation will happen some time in the future, are you still not "realised"? It is very simple... all these things/forms arise (this includes suffering), they are all different, impermanent - but they all have one thing in common, don't they?
Sensations happen, thoughts happen - they talk about suffering - a body moves - more thoughts... what is the common, unifying aspect of this whole process?
Look... at the looking, not at the objects...

Alex

[placebo8]

Maybe this has nothing to do with an I-belief... what would happen if "seeing" would win? Would the body remain sitting in an uncomfortable position until it dies?

No, but there would be a sense of equanimity with regards to wether or not this would actually happen. I'm not saying it will eliminate the pain, the accompanying fear or any other emotions or thoughts that would accompany it - what I am saying is that there would be no fear of the fear, no attachment to any of the natural physiologocal or emotional happenings that would occur should that eventuality happen.

If there is just thought happening then there really is no ego at all, no separate entity that can be found at any time, just thoughts about preferences, judgements, likes and dislikes - all just acquired stories, ideas and beliefs. Agree?

Yes, fully. As you've noticed, agreeing with the obvious logic of this is not the problem. I think the problem might be analogous to an intelligent yet unhealthy obese person that dreams of eventually being healthy and fit but nevertheless continues to eat large amounts of unhealthy food and does not exercise, despite fully understanding the logical error in this behaviour as well as the implications. Ask them why they do it despite knowing that it doesn't make any sense and they'll probably say that what is happening is stronger than them. The correct view might say that what is happening is not "stronger" or "weaker" than anything, as it all there ever is and thus there is also no "them" that it can be stronger than - but this doesn't comfort the obese person who desperately wants to lose weight.

But what is often overlooked is that while this process of seeking might weaken certain beliefs it doesn't get rid of the root of the problem... Thought, ego, cant get rid of itself. It has to be clearly seen that there never was an ego in the first place to "get rid" of. And that this "getting rid of" is not an activity, its rather the end of the activity of searching, of trying to getting rid of the ego

I also logically understand this point (notice the implicit problem of believing there's an "I" that understands this point...) It's like someone holding up weights, asking what needs to be done in order to relieve the pain of holding up the weights and not being able to understand that it's the very doing that is causing the pain, that what needs to be "done" is to stop doing. He insists, "No, no - you don't understand, what is it I have to DO?" - now go and explain relaxation to one who is insistent upon trying endless forms of stress to find peace. I figure this is what you might equate my situation to and in your position I'd be frustrated at the inability to convey the simplicity of escaping this trap so all I can do is apologise for my stupidity in not seeing how to stop doing.

Maybe you wait for a specific achievement - the end of suffering? - to happen?

To that I can answer a definite yes. The end of suffering is the yardstick by which I measure enlightenment. Of course, so long as there's someone to measure, suffering will be there. Catch 22.

Sensations happen, thoughts happen - they talk about suffering - a body moves - more thoughts... what is the common, unifying aspect of this whole process?

The am-ness it all owes it's existence to, and in fact what it all is.

This week there was a bit of a buzz when Elon Musk who is (I think rightfully) respected as an intelligent, visionary and a very practical person said he believed we are all living in a simulation, and he does not know where "base reality" is, as those that simulate us might be a simulation themselves. While I had no logical problem with the idea that we are a simulation, what immediately struck me as being misleading is the implied conclusion that becuase of this we are not "base reality", that the simulation is somehow "less real" than the reality of those running the simulation.
It is all one and the same, no matter where it is.

Look... at the looking, not at the objects...

I set aside an hour every day to try and do just that. If it would help then I'll double or quadruple that. Whatever it takes.

[Alexw]

No, but there would be a sense of equanimity with regards to wether or not this would actually happen.

This sense of "equanimity" is here all the time, it is just not in thought. It is in the knowing of thought, not in the story that thought presents. Identify with the story: You land in duality. Then there will be something that thought labels "equanimity" and "anxiety". Thought will never stay on just one side of the scale - it requires the opposite to work. So don't look for a state of perfect equanimity in thought stories... Equanimity can only be "reached" when seen that you are not affected by the story...

what I am saying is that there would be no fear of the fear, no attachment to any of the natural physiologocal or emotional happenings that would occur should that eventuality happen

Thats is true as well, but this is again not something that can happen to the thought based "you". You are already perfectly free of fear, you don't know attachment. All of these are for thought only.

I also logically understand this point (notice the implicit problem of believing there's an "I" that understands this point...)

There is no problem in understanding something logically - the problem arises when you believe that thought can solve problems that are not in its domain. Thought will never control thought. Thought will never grasp the non-dual nature of This. Thought is a re-actor, not a re-sponder. The body responds, thought provides the story (it defines a re-action)... Reaction basically means to act something out again and again - something that is old and stale - it is not the creative, always new, response to life... See if that matches your daily experience...

now go and explain relaxation to one who is insistent upon trying endless forms of stress to find peace

See if you can change your actions to be more responsive than reactive. Break these old habits of daily routine and instead of meditation take a walk, sit on a bench in a busy street and simply look, climb a hill or go and sit in a cafe and observe what is happening... Quadrupling your meditation effort will quadruple your confusion. Don't practice in isolation, go out and look, hear, feel... see how the body responds to all these inputs that arise, and look at how slow thought is - how it always comes back to old habits... They are not you, are they?

he believed we are all living in a simulation, and he does not know where "base reality"

Well... its just another story trying to describe "reality".. or a way to know it for sure... Thought describes objects in duality. Thus it proposes that “reality” can be an object that can be known. But what if “reality” is the process of knowing itself?
Can the eye see itself? Only by “artificially” objectifying itself. The problem is that the process of objectification spawned identification with objectivity. Are you an object? Look at this direct experience… Can you find any objects at all? Or is all you can find seeing, hearing, feeling, thinking… Can you find a thought, or a tree or a sound? Or is there only the flow, the aware-ing presence in all its (seeming) diversity…?

[placebo8]

See if you can change your actions to be more responsive than reactive. Break these old habits of daily routine and instead of meditation take a walk, sit on a bench in a busy street and simply look, climb a hill or go and sit in a cafe and observe what is happening...

Actually, seriously putting aside time for meditation is not an old habit but a relatively new one. The standard "mingling" with life (work, family, some friends, shopping, dining, the odd vacation, reading, ideas, thoughts, plans) is the old habit. Nothing of the old habit has resulted in any change of understanding as far as realising non-duality, nor do I see any reason why it should, as I can't see it facilitating any change of preconceived notions. Over the years I've climbed quite a few hills, sat in many cafes and did quite a bit of watching but I've always taken "me" along, so can't imagine why it should be different this time. Meditation is something I haven't given full devotion to until recently and while I don't expect to be suddenly touched by grace, there's a hope that with enough watching of the senses, trying to track where they originate from or go to, noticing the thoughts about them, attempting to follow them to the supposed "me" that they belong to - that all this will begin to release the tightly lodged belief that there's someone here that can suffer.

Thought usually comes up as the party-pooper whenever it seems that a new insight has been seen, with questions that try to punch holes in it, so I try and answer what I can and leave it for a deeper insight to take care of eventually pointing to how misguided were those that I can't currently answer.

Speaking of thought and meditation, I was wondering what you think of using neurological feedback devices as a tool for meditation. Since my thoughts are usually all over the place when I want to focus on the am-ness and what is here now, a device that will keep me in check whenever my mind wonders from what I want to focus on seems in principle like a good tool for this.

[Alexw]

Meditation is something I haven't given full devotion to until recently and while I don't expect to be suddenly touched by grace, there's a hope that with enough watching of the senses, trying to track where they originate from or go to, noticing the thoughts about them, attempting to follow them to the supposed "me" that they belong to

OK, sure, if you are drawn to mediation then go for it. Nothing wrong with it. And you don't even have to sit on a cushion zazen style to meditate - every act can be one of mediation. For me meditation is a natural relaxing into what is here/now. A time that you dedicate to consciously be - simply be. Not a struggle and not a task to achieve anything. In a more formal way it can also be a special time for curious looking at this presence, this experience, without any prefabricated stories of what a successful meditation practice will achieve for "me".
Meditation with a goal - especially the goal of eliminating the ego or achieving a thought-less state etc - is not true meditation. It is actually the opposite - a prolonging of the thought structures that one wants to get rid of. By trying to achieve a goal the process turns into a quest for knowledge for the proposed self...

When you are "attempting to follow thoughts to the supposed "me" that they belong to"... what do you find? Anything? Or just more thought? What if there is nothing (for thought) to find?
Don't look at the content of thought - look at the looking! Look at the act/process of experiencing. It is not an object. It is a happening - a process of knowing happening without a knower. The knowing is inherent in the process.
Its hard to describe as you cant see it, think it or grasp it. But it is simply here as the knowing of itself...
As long as you look for objects that thought can grasp and describe you will not find it. There is no place where anything originates from or where it subsides to - where does seeing come from and and where does it go? No-where, right? So you wont find any satisfactory answers to your questions.

Thought usually comes up as the party-pooper whenever it seems that a new insight has been seen, with questions that try to punch holes in it, so I try and answer what I can and leave it for a deeper insight to take care of eventually pointing to how misguided were those that I can't currently answer.

Do you really expect a final answer from this thought based process? Look at the one who wants an answer - the questioner itself. Does he even exist? What is he made of? Maybe he is just a thought? So...
What is thought made of?
Isn't thought made of the same "stuff" that seeing, hearing, feeling and smelling is "made of"..? That everything is "made of"?
What is hearing made of? What is seeing made of?
When you listen to the radio - or when you listen to the voice in your head... is there really any difference at all?

Speaking of thought and meditation, I was wondering what you think of using neurological feedback devices as a tool for meditation.

I have never tried something like that, so I cant really comment on that, but I would be surprised if it does the trick.
Its not about shaping or controlling thought processes - its about seeing that these thoughts don't even have an owner, that the me that they seem to belong to is an illusion.
The addiction to thinking will abate naturally when there is no central reference point - no belief in a separate self that fuels thought anymore.

[placebo8]

And you don't even have to sit on a cushion zazen style to meditate - every act can be one of mediation

Yes, this was one of the first insights when I started meditation as it appeared obvious that there's no "special force" or "magical state" in meditation that isn't already always there, whether sitting in meditation or not. The only difference is the available "bandwidth" to notice it. It's hard enough seeing through the story when all the resources are dedicated to noticing that there is nobody there, it's much harder to do so when attention is required for "external" things.

Meditation with a goal - especially the goal of eliminating the ego or achieving a thought-less state etc - is not true meditation. It is actually the opposite - a prolonging of the thought structures that one wants to get rid of. By trying to achieve a goal the process turns into a quest for knowledge for the proposed self...

Yes, I'm aware of this, as well as the inherent paradox that it carries. One one hand, you say there is nothing to get (and I have every reason to believe you) and on the other this entire correspondence is about how to get that there is nothing to get :-) Of course the answer is not in the domain of thought, but thought is doing the only thing it knows how which is marking a target "out there" and going after it. This is doomed to fail in this case, and if you add to this the identification with thought, one gets a recipe for frustration.

When you are "attempting to follow thoughts to the supposed "me" that they belong to"... what do you find? Anything? Or just more thought? What if there is nothing (for thought) to find?

As you'd expect, I only find things happening to no one, but there's a constant apparent struggle between seeing the thought and believing the thought. I use the discomfort of sitting in a fixed position for an hour as a tool because the growing discomfort brings the belief in an "I" into full swing, which I figure would also be the best opportunity to expose it as a fraud. What usually happens though is that I notice the experience as a happening, then thoughts/emotions rejecting the experience rise, then I notice these as another happening, see they come from nowhere and belong to no one and yet, at some stage the situation gets to a point where this "no one" comes back with a vengeance to assert its someone-ness...

Don't look at the content of thought - look at the looking! Look at the act/process of experiencing. It is not an object. It is a happening - a process of knowing happening without a knower. The knowing is inherent in the process.

While I realise this is the key, it's unclear how this should be done. Like you said, it's like asking the eye to look at itself. How on earth can that be achieved? I try to do this by focusing on the obvious is-ness of being, though it's a struggle because after a while I find myself drawn to taking one thought or another to be me.

Isn't thought made of the same "stuff" that seeing, hearing, feeling and smelling is "made of"..? That everything is "made of"?

Yes, I can't argue with that - not only because it makes perfect sense, but also because for brief moments I see that it is so. The rest of the time the "I" thought reigns supreme...

Speaking of thought and meditation, I was wondering what you think of using neurological feedback devices as a tool for meditation.

I have never tried something like that, so I cant really comment on that, but I would be surprised if it does the trick.
Its not about shaping or controlling thought processes - its about seeing that these thoughts don't even have an owner, that the me that they seem to belong to is an illusion.

I have no illusion about some experience or other bringing about liberation nor any type of thought control method, as they are all limited to the realm of the mind. But the question is whether a tool that can help manipulate thoughts, if wisely used could be helpful for seeing them for what they are. For example, if I use a neuro-feedback device to teach me to continually think about pink elephants, that would be a rather moronic use of the device. However, if I manage to use it to learn how to "look at the looking" rather than jumping all over the place (which is how I feel about my current mediation process) then perhaps it is worth trying.

[Alexw]

thought is doing the only thing it knows how which is marking a target "out there" and going after it. This is doomed to fail in this case, and if you add to this the identification with thought, one gets a recipe for frustration

Yes, its funny in a way. Thought creates a goal - to get it, or no more suffering, or permanent happiness - and then you (=thought) chase it. The problem is that by creating the goal you also create the fear or frustration that you might not reach it. Or in case that you have seemingly achieved a certain goal you create the next goal of not losing this achievement... Either way, the situation is problematic as you will never just be at peace - its always a state of thought based lack, anxiety or fear.
As I mentioned before, and I believe you know this very well, the only way out is to get rid of the way. This means seeing through the separate self that seems to be the one that wants to achieve these goals and that is afraid and frustrated when this task fails.
On the other hand there is this moment - this here/now that is always available. This knowing presence that doesn't lack anything. Everything arises in/as it and there is absolutely no resistance to any of it. There are no goals in this now. Thought always comes in later and analyses events that are already fully present and accepted - they are here/now and this means that every movement against it, as well as any movement to hold on to it, is completely futile.

As you'd expect, I only find things happening to no one, but there's a constant apparent struggle between seeing the thought and believing the thought.

Thats perfectly right - there is an apparent struggle, the struggle is in thought only.
It really boils down to seeing "what you really are". When you see that you are not these thoughts then you are free of them. Being free doesn't mean that thoughts won't arise anymore - it doesn't even mean that no I-thoughts will arise anymore. This will still happen for some time but it will get less and less as your attention, the focus of awareness will naturally come back to this moment, this direct experience. This coming back to now is not something that thought controls, it is something that happens naturally as there is the new understanding that there is no real self in thought, just stories about one... there is nothing new or interesting to be found in thought whereas this moment is alive and full of energy.
Ask yourself the question what it is that draws you in, what is it that lures you to meditation or to this enquiry? Is it only the quest for more thought based knowledge or is there also something else, maybe a feeling of lack, a feeling that something is not quite right..? When you are fully present, simply being as this moment. Is this feeling still there? Or is there simply a relaxed state of being? Let this joyful state of "not knowing" draw you closer. Withdraw attention form this thought based struggle of constant analysis and evaluation... You have understood that there is no true self to be found in thought - now find the courage to trust this understanding.

if I manage to use it to learn how to "look at the looking"

There is nothing to learn. You are "the looking". Do you have to learn to be you?
Maybe thought wants to learn to be a certain way, but by doing this you veil the truth.
Thought is looking for something to do, for a way, for a question that needs an answer... If all of that goes, what is left?

[Alexw]

Hi,
Just letting you know that I will be travelling for about a month and internet access will be limited at times.
This might lead to some delays in answering your posts...
All the best,
Alex

[placebo8]

Thank you Alex. I'm still contemplating this and "doing the work" to the best of my understanding. Your continued assistance is not taken for granted.

Have a great trip,
Amnon