hello to all

[ElPortal]

HI Paul

Thanks for those 4 responses: very interesting.

Cherished or amazing experiences, can, along with experiences which have been heard or read about, can become a stumbling block which prevents a letting go into the only thing which can really be known: THIS ALIVE MOMENT. So, the two main questions I have for you to consider are as follows:-

A. Are the distinctions between 'highe'r and 'lower' experience real or artificial? (Even what are referred to as the 5 senses, can we even really find anything (beyond labelling) except for THIS aliveness (or some similar inadequate expression))? If 'higher' and 'lower' are real, what does that mean: higher or lower than what? A memory? Something that is real in this moment? Or are they just labels on an experience which is really ALL mystery, just happens the way it happens in any given moment?

B. Big question coming up: Are there memories of a cherished experience back there (or several), which are being hung onto, hankered after? Is the belief in these experiences stopping the lovesong of this present moment from being fully embraced in ALL its aliveness? And does such a belief bring with it the notion of an 'experiencer' called Paul who 'had these experiences'? Can memories be thanked and then released.. in favour of a full embrace with the aliveness of THIS, whether or not it the present happenings might be described as 'more or less glamorous', 'higher' or 'lower' in vibration?

Please consider these really carefully, and especially let me know honestly what 'physical' reactions and sensations come up when you read those questions.

warmly

Mark

[lucid365]

A. there's no real higher or lower it seems that this present moment is not really experienced properly,for instance sometimes the alive present moment can be very clear without any distractions,other times it can be experienced as very dull or the present moment is not even noticed because of (t) future or past,the present moment is always the same but the intensity and aliveness of it seems to change based on awareness,if the present moment is observed it seems to get more acute,theres still distractions there but because we are experiencing the present moment and our attention is on it,the never changing present moment seems to change based on our attention,so it's our awareness that's changing not the present moment,so if we are not trained to see the intensity of the present moment,when we do actually look for the present moment the experience of it looks completely different than someone who has been training to look at the present moment everyday for years,so an untrained awareness would be experienced differently than a fully trained awareness

sent from samsung galaxy note 4

[lucid365]

B.im not looking for amazing experiences but I feel that the present moment needs to be constantly observed so we can experience it for what it really is,amazing experiences are just part of the scenery (t) along the way,but meditation cultivation needs to be practiced along the way to make us see the aliveness of the present moment as it is

sent from samsung galaxy note 4

[ElPortal]

Hi Paul,

Thanks for those responses. About questions A and B, remember though:-

Please consider these really carefully, and especially let me know honestly what 'physical' reactions and sensations come up when you read those questions.

So just those thoughts and comments (t) on those questions? No physical reactions or sensations (e) to report when those questions are read and considered?

M

[lucid365]

I just get an uneasy sensation,as I don't agree with seeing alone,or direct pointing alone,I think it's only partial of the work that has to be done

sent from samsung galaxy note 4

[ElPortal]

Hi Paul,

OK, so

A.... someone who has been training to look at the present moment everyday for years

Who/what is there to be trained or to look? or what individual who has not been trained to look? Is there an individual there who can take credit for all that, or is it more like the mountain stream, just happening as the flow of Life?

B.....I feel that the present moment needs to be constantly observed so we can experience it for what it really is,amazing experiences are just part of the scenery (t) along the way,but meditation cultivation needs to be practiced along the way to make us see the aliveness of the present moment as it is

Who/what is there to observe the present moment, or to cultivate meditation, or to see the aliveness of the present moment? Is there an individual who can claim credit for any of this, or is it more like the mountain stream, just happening as the flow of Life?

I don't agree with seeing alone,or direct pointing alone,I think it's only partial of the work that has to be done

Who/what is there to agree or disagree? Who/what is there to do such work? Can anyone take credit for that agreement or that work? Is there an independent agent able to do that, or is it all just happening by itself?

PS there is absolutely no necessity to continue to look, or to see through the illusion of separate self, unless there is! Life seems to be perfectly happy playing at being 'Jim' and 'Sam' etc. This enquiry is not about trying to persuade anything or to see in a certain way, or to think a certain thing. But WATCH OUT, because once the illusion is seen through, it's pretty much irreversible, unless 'One' is a very good actor! ;-)

I just get an uneasy sensation

If there is a move to continue looking, please report in as much detail as possible on this uneasy sensation. Location. Shape. Movement. Intensity. Everything you can. Welcome it until it goes.

Cheers

Mark

[lucid365]

A.This collaboration of thoughts and sensations together with this body can be used to act in a certain way (meditation) to train to see the present moment ,there's no individual

B.theres no individual,it's like the flow of life but we use the body,thoughts l,sensations as tools to observe the present moment

No one to agree or disagree

There's a body with thoughts and sensations with awareness that can become more aware by practicing techniques

the uneasy sensation is happening because it's debatable that this inquiry is also just like a belief system and I don't want to go chasing rabbits down rabbit holes that lead to the wrong way

sent from samsung galaxy note 4

[ElPortal]

Hi Paul

the uneasy sensation is happening because it's debatable that this inquiry is also just like a belief system and I don't want to go chasing rabbits down rabbit holes that lead to the wrong way

The invitation is to report on the actual first-hand experience of the uneasy sensation, rather than to speculate as to the reasons.

Yes, the approach here is really to look into the actual first-hand now experience, rather than to speculate. It is to challenge all belief systems, to look instead into THIS experience until clear seeing happens.

If you are not ready for direct looking in this way at this point, that is perfectly fine. Just come back to me (or to another guide if you prefer) if and when you DO feel ready.

I would just like to remind you what LU is not (as stated on the home page FAQ's):-

Throughout the years our many guides have discovered that one of the major obstacles to the direct, clear seeing of what is already magnificently the case is a thick layer of expectations and narrative about a self’s journey towards enlightenment, built up by years and years of seeking. Getting these expectations out in the open and out of the way is an important first step. Below is a list explaining what the LU process is not:
This is not a way to escape your daily life.

This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.

This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.

This isn’t a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts.

This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.

This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts.

This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.

This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, it not magical or mystical.

This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.

This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.

This is not a solution to problems in relationships.

This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.

This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.

This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.

This is not about convincing you of anything.

This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.

This is not a self improvement program.

Please let me know how you'd like to proceed.

Warm wishes to you,

Mark

[lucid365]

Yes I'll continue on as usual mark!!

sent from samsung galaxy note 4

[ElPortal]

Ok then, Paul

This dialogue is not about a debate or learning some short cuts. The famous zen expert and philosopher Alan Watts once said: 'get out of your mind and come to your senses'. Whereas rational thinking keeps us in the world of problem solving and concepts, 'realisation' by contrast can only ever be to the aliveness of THIS moment, right here, right now. So:-

the uneasy sensation is happening because it's debatable that this inquiry is also just like a belief system and I don't want to go chasing rabbits down rabbit holes that lead to the wrong way

'because it's debatable': this is reasoning rather than first-hand sensory experiencing. The invitation is to look at the immediate sensings of the moment.

Paul wrote: I just get an uneasy sensation

ElPortal wrote: If there is a move to continue looking, please report in as much detail as possible on this uneasy sensation. Location. Shape. Movement. Intensity. Everything you can. Welcome it until it goes.

Please report on this NOT from reasoning. The invitation is to report from what actually comes up sensorially.

To get some more practice at this (which is key to this exploration) please look back over those 18 'LU is not's and notice if any 'physical' reaction or sensation occurs when any of them are read. Then report back wherever that is the case, giving as full a description as possible of that reaction.

1. This is not a way to escape your daily life.

2. This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.

3. This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.

4. This isn’t a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts.

5. This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.

6. This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts.

7. This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.

8. This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, it not magical or mystical.

9. This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.

10. This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.

11. This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.

12. This is not a solution to problems in relationships.

13. This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.

14. This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.

15. This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.

16. This is not about convincing you of anything.

17. This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.

18. This is not a self improvement program.

Cheers

Mark

[lucid365]

There's no reaction or sensation when reading through them,before was a sense of uneasiness because of ideas and concepts

sent from samsung galaxy note 4

[ElPortal]

Hi Paul,

There's no reaction or sensation when reading through them

So, reading through those 18 items, no reaction or sensation at all? Nor from the uneasiness before? eg No calm? No relief? No tensing? No lightness, Nothing? Is that body still alive?

Are there any expectations left there at all? Or are they all gone, and if so how does that feel?

Cheers

Mark

[lucid365]

I feel like we have to embrace no self and also self,there's no egnoring the fact that we have a self but the illusory factor of it can't be denied,it's impossible to live without an identity,so it seems that by completely denying a self or identity is just self deception,it seems like our new identity is the identity of no self

sent from samsung galaxy note 4

[lucid365]

The both of them can be integrated together paradoxically,we can accept both

sent from samsung galaxy note 4

[ElPortal]

Hi Paul

I feel like we have to embrace no self and also self,there's no egnoring the fact that we have a self but the illusory factor of it can't be denied,it's impossible to live without an identity,so it seems that by completely denying a self or identity is just self deception,it seems like our new identity is the identity of no self

The both of them can be integrated together paradoxically,we can accept both

You haven't really answered my questions, but that' fine: it seems like you have your views up together: is there anything more I can do for you by way of pointing and guiding, or is that perspective one which you are happy with keeping?

Cheers

Mark