The "I" doesn't know

[Josephkoudelka]

A thought is recognised as it appears - not before.

Yes. So how can choosing work?

The veil seems to exist as a thought that has been generated from a self, which is really a thought/belief fixating on another thought/belief.

"...that has been generated from a self", is just another thought. Another belief. And the next thought is just another thought, let them rave on, who cares?

Even though I can see this, seeing is not enough, or perhaps it is not the Direct Experience of the moment.

These are just thoughts about seeing, about what Direct Experience should be like.

Just seeing directly that these are thoughts with no basis of their own is seeing through the illusion.

This is Direct Experience. Sometimes direct experience is believing thoughts bullshit. Sometimes direct experience is not believing thoughts bullshit. Most important is seeing that thoughts just happen.

How does a self have a thought of its own? Describe this if you can.

[Hypnodean]

thank you for the clarity that comes with your response.

I don't think a self has a thought of its own. The belief in the self (which is a thought), gives rise, or helps generate more thoughts based on the idea of 'me', 'I', 'my' . This in itself gathers momentum and is like an energy that keeps on going until it is seen for what it really is.

Really seeing that no thought can be chosen - trips the mind out, and it's like it halts its momentum until it rediscovers some new way of getting around it.

[Josephkoudelka]

The belief in the self (which is a thought), gives rise, or helps generate more thoughts based on the idea of 'me', 'I', 'my' . This in itself gathers momentum and is like an energy that keeps on going until it is seen for what it really is.

No. Thoughts just happen. There is nothing that can be found in Direct Experience that is orchestrating thoughts.

If you only know a thought during or after it occurs, how can you be choosing the next thought? There is never a first thought that is known, enabling the choice of a followup thought. Look.

Does one thought know another thought?

[Hypnodean]

Does one thought know another thought?

Sometimes the thoughts gather momentum and they seem to all be sequentially linked, but
it can be seen that they are just thoughts: random, uncontrolled, unchosen, sometimes repetitive, often compulsive and impulsive.

At the moment thoughts are rampant. It's like they have returned with a vengeance, making it difficult to do self investigation.

[Josephkoudelka]

At the moment thoughts are rampant. It's like they have returned with a vengeance, making it difficult to do self investigation.

What really stands out when I reread our thread is that there seems to be three fundamental misperceptions on your end. They are all related to thought.

1. Expectation of no thought.
2. Believing that you generate at least some thought.
3 That thought creates another thought.

I can't emphasize enough how it important it is to look and see that thought happens independent of any self. That an independent and discrete self is itself an illusion - and can be clearly seen as such.

We do this by simply pausing and asking ourself, "What will the next thought bring?" We look with intense curiosity. In time, it will become apparent that we never know what our next thought will bring and that it is outside of any control.

We also look and see that each thought, whether apparently related or not, is independent of the previous thought. This is very important. How do we know each thought is independent? Because a thought occurs NOW. There is only NOW. When we look deeply into this present moment we can see that there is no cause, no effect. That this world has a dreamlike quality.

The content of thought is the veil itself.

Can a thought know another thought?

[Hypnodean]

I will sleep with these words and reply tomorrow.

[Josephkoudelka]

ok.

[Hypnodean]

The misperceptions you point are true, especially when I become idenfitfied.

I feel like I'm back at the very beginning and using a mindfulness approach to observe the workings of the mind.
A thought does not know another thought. A thought doesn't really know anything. There is just a knowing that thoughts are happening.
This dreamlike quality you mention has been experienced before, but is not my experience now. The mind had slowed down and is no longer rampant, but I will continue to observe.

[Josephkoudelka]

This dreamlike quality you mention has been experienced before, but is not my experience now. The mind had slowed down and is no longer rampant, but I will continue to observe.

The whole thing is a dream. Your only problem is that you prefer one part of the dream, and not another. See the whole dream as dream and be free.

You have never experienced anything because you don't exist.

Show me a self that is not a thought imposed on the present moment of the seamless totality of Now.

[Hypnodean]

Hi Joseph,
Your comments are very direct.
The resonate deeply with me and the are greatly appreciated.
All that is left is to experience this.
To stay in this,
To be this,

This is all that matters and all energy and focus will try and remain on this.

[Josephkoudelka]

Hi Dean.

This is all that matters and all energy and focus will try and remain on this.

Get off the treadmill. There is no one to bring "all energy and focus" to remain on this. Sometimes there will be attention to just This. Sometimes there won't. It is completely out of "our" control. You can't plan your next thought. You can't plan where your energy will go. You can't plan where your attention will remain. Try.

For the next five minutes, place your attention on the tip of your forefinger of the left hand. Do not allow any other thought to intrude.

Notice how it becomes hard too determine where the tip even is with regard to its surroundings.

Describe what you find with this exercise.

[Hypnodean]

I have been practicing thought focussing exercises like this for over 20 years, but never succeeded.
In doing this exercise, there was always a very subtle thought as an interpretation or comment arising.
It was impossible to remain completely silent. The mind continually did its thing.

After a while, the finger tip doubled in appearance, sometimes one would become partially transparent, but all times it was impossible to tell which was the actual finger. The surrounding space and the finger began to merge and it started to feel as though maybe there is no finger at all. Maybe there is no hand, maybe there is no arm, maybe there is no body...

If there is no control over the movement of attention, there is nothing to be done, there is nothing the "I" can do, there is no one seeking to find out. I have experienced what I am saying but it is still not being experienced now.

[Josephkoudelka]

I have experienced what I am saying but it is still not being experienced now.

Every thing changes. Thoughts always change. Attention, focus, comes and goes. The perceiving, the knowing of all these changes, never changes. And this knowing does not belong to a knower. It is only consciousness knowing itself endlessly.

CONSCIOUSNESS. IS. IMPERSONAL. ALL PERVADING. ETERNAL. WITHOUT A SECOND.

The mind that you know as Deans mind is an illusion. It is only supported by a thought, an unending series of thoughts over which you have no control.

Sure, every thought is known, but thoughts are not known by other thoughts. One thought does not know another thought. Thoughts lack their own sentiency. They stream endlessly through Consciousness. and Consciousness, Awareness, Direct Experience, Perceiving knowing itself, whatever you want to call it, can never be an object of the mind. It is the ultimate subject as it were. And even this statement is lacking, because there are no objects found outside of the content of a thoughts narrative or story. Without any objects, who can speak of a subject.

Look at any thought arising now. It is immediately known, is it not? But where is it? Can a thought be grasped? Or is the thought that claims, I know that previous thought, just another thought that cannot be grasped without another thought to make it's silly claim that it knew the prior thought. Meanwhile, throughout them all, they are impersonally known as they occur. Now is never not here. And Now is always known.

Who is making thoughts happen? If you are, why can't you, after all these years, control what you think and feel?

This statement "

I have experienced what I am saying but it is still not being experienced now.

", is just another thought, and it doesn't mean a thing.

[Hypnodean]

Hi Joseph, I'm currently in a remote area with very little Internet, but things are going well and I will reply within the next 24 hours,

[Hypnodean]

Thoughts are happening as an expression of consciousness itself. The "I" that believes it is thinking is another thought. The 'I' that I have been identified with, cannot control what is thought or felt because the 'I' itself is one of the very thoughts. Feeling and thinking are happening to and within the body-mind organism.

At the moment, even though your words are excellent pointers, it is clear that they are just pointers and our whole dialogue is a narrative or story as you mention.

At the moment there is not much to say, because what you have been pointing to can be seen. Clarity of seeing comes and goes but so does every other object.