The Gate

I had a weird experience earlier this week:

Walking to cross the street and a car was turning and as I stepped out into the street, I had this weird connected experience of me just doing things (like crossing the street). I always think I'm right, e.g. when walking across the street, the cars should stop for me, but when driving, those idiots who step out into the street should know better and get out of the way cause I'm coming through.

I can't quiet explain the feeling I had, but it was like an awareness of me just doing things (stepping into the street to cross it) without the "I'm" in charge of deciding to cross the street or something like that.

So maybe this is you starting to notice how things are happening on their own? It sounds like how I started to see this. I was in a shop, and I noticed how thoughts were coming up (" the shopkeeper is looking at me wierd" " Do I look ok"), and also there was just noticing of how asking for the item, reaching into my pocket, counting out money,, and walking out of the shop seemed to just happen effortlessly and automatically.
Those thoughts about always being right are good to look at as well. What is it that needs to be always right? Are these thoughts just stories about an "I"? Do they pop up automatically? What are these stories protecting?

Keep looking. Look at everything throughout the day. Look at the times you feel "you" are in control, and the times that it seems like you arent.

What is it that needs to be always right? Are these thoughts just stories about an "I"? Do they pop up automatically? What are these stories protecting?

There's definitely a strong "I want this", and "I want it to be this way/I have to have it be this way" piece of things. The stories protect my need to be right, to have things go the way I want them to.

When the weird feeling happened, it was very brief and hasn't happened since then.

What is it that needs to be always right? Are these thoughts just stories about an "I"? Do they pop up automatically? What are these stories protecting?

There's definitely a strong "I want this", and "I want it to be this way/I have to have it be this way" piece of things. The stories protect my need to be right, to have things go the way I want them to.

When the weird feeling happened, it was very brief and hasn't happened since then.

So, what is the "I" in "I want it to be this way"?

A thought arises of "I want it to be this way"
A feeling ( maybe tenseness, or anger) follows the thought.

Is there an "I" that wants it to be that way? Or was it just a thought, passing through, that was believed in?

This feeling of having to be right, thinking I'm right. I had a brief awareness today of the idea that others are also right, like I think one thing and think that anyone else who things differently is wrong, but there's a sense/feeling that their beliefs could also be right/good.

So, what is the "I" in "I want it to be this way"?

Is there an "I" that wants it to be that way? Or was it just a thought, passing through, that was believed in?

That "I" is a very strong feeling of ownership of wanting things to be the way "I" want them to be, or wanting to be in control, to be right, etc.

You keep mentioning those "I" statements being just thoughts that are passing through, but I'm having a really hard time seeing them as just thoughts with no strength to them.

A feeling ( maybe tenseness, or anger) follows the thought.

I don't feel any feelings following the thought, just a strong sense of I want this, I want it to be this way, etc.

You keep mentioning those "I" statements being just thoughts that are passing through, but I'm having a really hard time seeing them as just thoughts with no strength to them.

Whether they have strength to them or not, are they thoughts? Is the statement "I want it to be this way" a thought?
There is perception of how things are, followed by a thought of "I want it to be different"? Just notice the thought arising and fading away.

Is it possible that they have strength because they elicit emotions and bodily sensations? And also other thoughts?

I don't feel any feelings following the thought, just a strong sense of I want this, I want it to be this way, etc.

So are you telling me that the "Strong sense" is not a feeling? What is it then? Think about a situation where the strong sense occurred, bring up the thoughts and feelings again. Look at the body? Is it tense? Or maybe the heart beats a little quicker, or stomach contracts a bit, or head feels tense, I dont know, take a look, as I dont believe that the strong sense is anything other than thoughts and feelings rebounding off each other.

Whether they have strength to them or not, are they thoughts? Is the statement "I want it to be this way" a thought?

Yes, they are thoughts.

There is perception of how things are, followed by a thought of "I want it to be different"? Just notice the thought arising and fading away.

Is it possible that they have strength because they elicit emotions and bodily sensations? And also other thoughts?

Maybe they have strength because they elicit emotions and bodily sensations. I'm not noticing emotions or bodily sensations, though.

So are you telling me that the "Strong sense" is not a feeling? What is it then? Think about a situation where the strong sense occurred, bring up the thoughts and feelings again. Look at the body? Is it tense? Or maybe the heart beats a little quicker, or stomach contracts a bit, or head feels tense, I dont know, take a look, as I dont believe that the strong sense is anything other than thoughts and feelings rebounding off each other.

Maybe I jut keep adding to the story to make it stronger and make "me" right in what I want. I'm thinking that maybe I keep bringing up more thoughts that I react to with emotions, bodily sensations and then more thoughts, emotions, sensations, etc. to build a huge story about how I'm ticked off, or whatever it is "I'm" upset about and reacting to. To myself: what would happen if I had a thought about something I wanted, and then chose not to think more thoughts about it, or to try to not go along with the arising thoughts, reactions, emotions, sensations, etc., just watch them arise and pass through without buying into them?

Maybe I jut keep adding to the story to make it stronger and make "me" right in what I want. I'm thinking that maybe I keep bringing up more thoughts that I react to with emotions, bodily sensations and then more thoughts, emotions, sensations, etc. to build a huge story about how I'm ticked off, or whatever it is "I'm" upset about and reacting to.

I think you need to look a little closer. You say you get upset about something, but at the same time you say that you dont notice any feelings or bodily sensations? What does it mean when you get upset? theres just thoughts ? or are there feelings going along with that?

To myself: what would happen if I had a thought about something I wanted, and then chose not to think more thoughts about it, or to try to not go along with the arising thoughts, reactions, emotions, sensations, etc., just watch them arise and pass through without buying into them?

Can you choose not to think more about it? Can you choose not to go along with the arising thoughts, reactions, and emotions? It may seem like it, but if that was the case, wouldnt you always choose not to?

When I ask you to look, I am not asking you to stop thoughts, or try not to go along with them. I am asking you to notice exactly what is happening. notice how the thoughts come in response to something. Notice how these thoughts trigger emotions and feelings. Watch how the feelings and thoughts intensify. Or maybe they drop away. But notice how its all happening. You cant stop the thoughts, they are already there. You cant stop the feelings, they are already there. Are you doing any of it?

You say you get upset about something, but at the same time you say that you dont notice any feelings or bodily sensations? What does it mean when you get upset? theres just thoughts ? or are there feelings going along with that?

Sometimes there's thoughts about "I" want this to be a certain way, or "I" want something to go my way, with no strong emotions, sensations, etc. and other times there's thoughts where I'm upset about something, and those thoughts definitely have feelings and bodily sensations connect with them.

Can you choose not to think more about it? Can you choose not to go along with the arising thoughts, reactions, and emotions? It may seem like it, but if that was the case, wouldnt you always choose not to?

I thought about this when I wrote it. I can't choose not to think more about it. If I could control thoughts, I would make sure they were all pleasant ones, so no, I can't control thoughts.

When I ask you to look, I am not asking you to stop thoughts, or try not to go along with them...Are you doing any of it?

I'm not trying to stop the thoughts or the feelings or anything. I'm trying to watch them, and watch what happens with them e.g. a feeling that comes up when a certain thought comes up, things like that. I can't stop thoughts or feelings. They come and go on their own.

I had the feeling again today of me thinking I'm right, and realizing that I'm not always right, like seeing someone else do something and saying to myself: "I would never do that.", and then I did it myself!

I'm not trying to stop the thoughts or the feelings or anything. I'm trying to watch them, and watch what happens with them e.g. a feeling that comes up when a certain thought comes up, things like that. I can't stop thoughts or feelings. They come and go on their own.

Ok, keep looking at this. Sort out the thoughts from the feelings. Notice what thoughts trigger what feelings. And what feelings trigger what thoughts.

I had the feeling again today of me thinking I'm right, and realizing that I'm not always right, like seeing someone else do something and saying to myself: "I would never do that.", and then I did it myself!

Yes, thoughts arent infallible, although we tend to believe that they are.

Ok, keep looking at this. Sort out the thoughts from the feelings. Notice what thoughts trigger what feelings. And what feelings trigger what thoughts.

Question I had last night: What causes the hook? What causes us to get hooked into things: I was remembering something that happened a few years ago, and then remembered/briefly/lightly felt the guilt I felt with it, and wondered: there were thoughts in my head about the event, and feelings of guilt, and then I get hooked into the feeling when there's just the thoughts and then the feeling comes up. Where does the getting hooked happen?

Notice what thoughts trigger what feelings. And what feelings trigger what thoughts.

I'm going to look at this. Reading it, it makes me think that certain thoughts bring up certain feelings (which they do, like if I miss someone a sad feeling would come up, not a happy one, or an angry one (unless I was angry at them for leaving or something like this).

Question I had last night: What causes the hook? What causes us to get hooked into things: I was remembering something that happened a few years ago, and then remembered/briefly/lightly felt the guilt I felt with it, and wondered: there were thoughts in my head about the event, and feelings of guilt, and then I get hooked into the feeling when there's just the thoughts and then the feeling comes up. Where does the getting hooked happen?

Try and find the person who gets hooked?

these questions are ones you need to answer for yourself, if at all. Maybe they dont need answered at all, I dont know, but most of your questions are just thoughts ABOUT no self, and I would say that answering them does not get you nearer to looking and seeing. Rather than getting caught up in trains of thought, LOOK.

Try and find the person who gets hooked?

these questions are ones you need to answer for yourself, if at all. Maybe they dont need answered at all, I dont know, but most of your questions are just thoughts ABOUT no self, and I would say that answering them does not get you nearer to looking and seeing. Rather than getting caught up in trains of thought, LOOK.

What I try to look at is the what's happening behind things, not the content of the thoughts themselves or things like that.

I don't see any person who gets hooked, but somehow the feeling/emotion isn't just another thing that's there, but rather it gets large and feels awful (like when I'm upset about something that happened). Maybe that's (the strong negative feelings/reactions) just another thing that's happening without a "me" to it, I don't know. It's hard to see that there's no "me" there when the feelings are really strong.

I feel like I'm trying to look and not seeing anything, not seeing no "self"!

Not seeing anything. I know I'm supposed to write daily, but there's nothing to write about, although I may have just noticed very briefly, that some things I'm saying here are writing them self or something, like happening on their own without me deciding what to say. Only noticed it for an extremely, extremely brief period of time. Did I notice it? It's hard to know.

I wish I could see more, and I wish things would show up for me. I get frustrated/ticked off as I feel like I'm writing back and forth with this Neeeel person, and I'm looking, and looking and nothing is happening. Most of the time, I'm not seeing anything.

I will try to write regularly even if I'm not seeing anything, although I don't know what to write when I don't see anything, and nothing's happening, no awareness occurring of non-self, etc. and everything is just the same.

I am also feeling frustration, and kind of at a loss as to how to proceed. Maybe a new approach , a new voice, will help?
If you want to start a new thread, with a new guide, feel free.

Gidday Rose, my name is vince.
It looks like a lot of hard work to read your 12 page thread with neeeel and it is a good excuse to have a fresh approach.
Your persistence is admirable and it probably points to a burning ache for liberation. Great assets on this journey.
Whether you 'know' it or not, your conversation with neeeel has precipitated change. At a physical level, the neuronal connections in the brain are undergoing a metamorphosis. Those associated with a lifetime of conditioning are (some of them) loosening their connections, while new connections are starting to form.
At an emotional/behavioral level, the physical changes are reflected in such things as you SEEing a flash of the choice-less-ness of behavior. (no decisions occurring)
On the other hand, some connections that occurred as a result of the story about Rose not getting anywhere, are being reinforced and strengthened.
Do you recognise when you are repeating a story like this one, or are you so lost in the emotion of despair/frustration that there is no awareness of the process that is happening ?

Most of the time, I'm not seeing anything.

Tell about the other times. List the changes that you have noticed, whether they were fleeting or permanent.