Hello!-JoshO

[Elad]

Dear Elad -

Greetings. Here’s what you last wrote to me:

“Good attending and describing here.

So you are not in control of attention.

Are you in control of the movement of sensations?

Are you in control of the movement of emotions?

Are you in control of the movement of thought?

Are you in control of the movement of will/intention?

Are you in control of movement?”

Perhaps to do justice to each of these questions, it will be best to take them one at a time:

“Are you in control of the movement of sensations?”

No, it does not appear that I am in control of the movement of sensations. They move where they move and are sensed as they do so.

“Are you in control of the movement of emotions?”

No. They move as they move, and “I” finds out about it as that movement happens.

“Are you in control of the movement of thought?”

This is an interesting one. No, it appears that the answer to this one is no as well. This begins to give a little bit of the feeling of vertigo, too… because of the very long-standing impression that “I” think(s). This begins to be fun again, and a little scary and nauseating too. (Which gives the impression that things may be heading in the right direction.)

“Are you in control of the movement of will/intention?”

I must admit that I am not immediately certain of the answer here (despite a strong suspicion that the answer is the same as those above). I would like to actually look at this before answering too swiftly here.

I guess I'm not immediately sure how to “see” the movement of will/intention so very well right here and now. The suspicion arises that will/intention moves by itself and then gives the impression of authorship to… something here, to “me”; I want to stick with my (recent re)commitment and not give air to too much uncertainty, but I also want to be careful not to assert clear seeing when the experience here is less than perfectly clear. Nonetheless, “I” suspect that will and intention arise on their own and in doing so create a powerful impression of “I/me” wanting something, wanting to do something.

“Are you in control of movement?”

Movement appears to happen by itself, when it needs to/wants to/activates to do movement. “I” finds out about it as it happens.

Thank you again Elad. I look forward to hearing from you again soon.

Best wishes from
Joshua

Re no thinker - good.

You jumped out of the game!! Look where you jumped out if the game, reread my last message. Quote several of the lines where you jumped out of the game and underneath rewrite them from within the game.

[JoshuaO]

Dear Elad -

I’m going a little fast now. it’s late, I feel unsure about trying to respond properly this quickly and this late, but I also don’t want to let this go for even a moment longer than absolutely necessary. You last wrote to me:

“Re no thinker - good.

You jumped out of the game!! Look where you jumped out if the game, reread my last message. Quote several of the lines where you jumped out of the game and underneath rewrite them from within the game.”

OK, So. I seem to have fallen in the same hole as previously. I’m less completely horrified (although it has taken a full day to circle back to you here), than… mystified that this keeps happening. Here’s some of your previous guidance to me.

“Let me clarify more what it means to write inside the game and what it is to break the game.

Inside the game:
- attending to and sharing observations of how things happen by themselves, i.e. thoughts, attentions, feelings, movements, actions, that are observed to happen spontaneously.
- attending to and sharing observations of how a self is not found inside anything you look at, that sensations, thoughts, perceptions, etc. do not in any inherent way express that they are a self. That this is just a perspective in thought, even when a very habitual and habitually believed one.

Outside the game:
- doubting if seeing happens, expressing doubt
- expressing (imagined) evidence to the contrary
- evaluating yourself and your seeing as an incomplete process
- talking about yourselfas not seeing, or on the way to seeing, or in a process that will lead to something else
- speculating about the meaning of this and types of wakening and etc
- expressing wishes and feelings about wanting something else/more (it would be inside the game to attend to and express how such wishes and feelings might turn up spontaneously without a self in control of it - *do you see the difference*?).

“1) Remind us what the two aspects of the game you said you very much want to play was?” OK.

You (Elad) suggested an experiment in which I (Joshua) would proceed ‘as if “I” have seen’, presuming that seeing is already happening, presuming that any voices that say otherwise are just habitual thoughts without a self, and then to live from this orientation for a good while, maybe openendedly, rather than from a deeply habitual view that has not worked, and see what happens.

In this game, you said, my job would be
1) to focus on collaborative evidence that it is true that seeing is there and there is no self, rather then thoughts about why (I) might not have seen yet, and
2) that it will be part of playing the game “to repeatedly drop all "knowledge" and fantasies and expectations about how it will/should be different, and see what happens.”

Managed to jump out of the game, again, this past time. Please please pardon this somewhat mystifying compulsion.

Your questions again, with what I wrote last time, and below that what will now be my second attempt:

“Are you in control of the movement of will/intention?”

Try #1 of yesterday:
“I must admit that I am not immediately certain of the answer here (despite a strong suspicion that the answer is the same as those above). I would like to actually look at this before answering too swiftly here.”

“I guess I'm not immediately sure how to “see” the movement of will/intention so very well right here and now. The suspicion arises that will/intention moves by itself and then gives the impression of authorship to… something here, to “me”; I want to stick with my (recent re)commitment and not give air to too much uncertainty, but I also want to be careful not to assert clear seeing when the experience here is less than perfectly clear. Nonetheless, “I” suspect that will and intention arise on their own and in doing so create a powerful impression of “I/me” wanting something, wanting to do something.”

Try #2 of today:
Am “I” in control of the movement of “will/intention”? Thoughts are happening. Experiences of will and “meaning to do’ things some way are happening. Desires to express a whole range of thoughts are happening, swirling even. A lot of very busy thoughts are happening, some of which express will/intention, desire, and many other things, all happening on top of one another. All these are seen.”

Thank you again, Elad, for your guidance. I look forward to more please.

Best wishes from
Joshua

[Elad]

Better. Every time you talk about doubt and talk about "I assume" or "it seems" you are going out of the game, and more importantly, you are strengthening the mode of relating from analytical thinking. Doubting, assuming and qualifying all mean that the words come from the mode of trying to be analytically sure. Not gonna happen. Philosophers and like minded people will be able to doubt and discuss this forever.

In seeing there is no doubt. Not in the sense that seeing gives the right philosophy about life beyond doubt. Just in the sense that what is seen is what is seen.

SO - and read the following sentence many times: You should not express doubts, reservations and qualifiers within the game!

GOT IT???

What you can do within the game is write: AN IMPULSE to express reservation and doubt in order to be phiosopically sober comes habitually by itself without a self.

DO YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE???

Also, you don't talk about how it's going better or worse and you are closer or further away. Not within the game. That is comparative analytic dualistic thinking - it's off.

GOT IT??

Again, no problem in describing the urges to compare and evaluate comes up habitually and without a self. Please please make sure you see the difference.

Last thing: This game is not only a game. It's a skillful means to see ingrained habitual modes of functioning (without a self or doer). Play full-heartedly.

[Elad]

Also do this exercise to repeat the insight of no-thinker. Do it as often as is intuitively helpful and improvise variations on it on your own.

Write words or thoughts one after another, don't wait for anything, just let word/thought after word/thought be generated and writen and for each one notice how it just comes by itself, there is no thinker or decider who knows it in advance. See how even when one words feels obviously associated to the last one, this association happens by itself. No thinker or decider in any of it.

[JoshuaO]

Dear Elad -

First, you:

“Better. Every time you talk about doubt and talk about "I assume" or "it seems" you are going out of the game, and more importantly, you are strengthening the mode of relating from analytical thinking. Doubting, assuming and qualifying all mean that the words come from the mode of trying to be analytically sure. Not gonna happen. Philosophers and like minded people will be able to doubt and discuss this forever.

In seeing there is no doubt. Not in the sense that seeing gives the right philosophy about life beyond doubt. Just in the sense that what is seen is what is seen.

SO - and read the following sentence many times: You should not express doubts, reservations and qualifiers within the game!

GOT IT???

What you can do within the game is write: AN IMPULSE to express reservation and doubt in order to be phiosopically sober comes habitually by itself without a self.

DO YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE???

Also, you don't talk about how it's going better or worse and you are closer or further away. Not within the game. That is comparative analytic dualistic thinking - it's off.

GOT IT??

Again, no problem in describing the urges to compare and evaluate comes up habitually and without a self. Please please make sure you see the difference.

Last thing: This game is not only a game. It's a skillful means to see ingrained habitual modes of functioning (without a self or doer). Play full-heartedly.

Also do this exercise to repeat the insight of no-thinker. Do it as often as is intuitively helpful and improvise variations on it on your own.

Write words or thoughts one after another, don't wait for anything, just let word/thought after word/thought be generated and writen and for each one notice how it just comes by itself, there is no thinker or decider who knows it in advance. See how even when one words feels obviously associated to the last one, this association happens by itself. No thinker or decider in any of it.”

—

OK, I read all of the above multiple times today and tonight and it’s late. I will now do that last exercise here as a leaping-off point into tomorrow.

Blortch
Fart
Dildo
Kansas
Murgatroyd.
Vagina
Fuck
Jerk
Damn!
Ketchup
What?
Bonehead
Tra la la
Why not?
Swallow
Scheisse
Why why why why?
Phew
Tired, weepy
Tongue
Depression
Who knows why
pain
midriff
racist
brilliant genius
poverty
sucks.

I will do more tomorrow, and I will re-read what you sent along today plenty more times.
Thank you, thank you for your help and guidance.

The urge to say thank you arises, strongly.

Very best wishes from
Joshua

[Elad]

Dear Elad -

First, you:

“Better. Every time you talk about doubt and talk about "I assume" or "it seems" you are going out of the game, and more importantly, you are strengthening the mode of relating from analytical thinking. Doubting, assuming and qualifying all mean that the words come from the mode of trying to be analytically sure. Not gonna happen. Philosophers and like minded people will be able to doubt and discuss this forever.

In seeing there is no doubt. Not in the sense that seeing gives the right philosophy about life beyond doubt. Just in the sense that what is seen is what is seen.

SO - and read the following sentence many times: You should not express doubts, reservations and qualifiers within the game!

GOT IT???

What you can do within the game is write: AN IMPULSE to express reservation and doubt in order to be phiosopically sober comes habitually by itself without a self.

DO YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE???

Also, you don't talk about how it's going better or worse and you are closer or further away. Not within the game. That is comparative analytic dualistic thinking - it's off.

GOT IT??

Again, no problem in describing the urges to compare and evaluate comes up habitually and without a self. Please please make sure you see the difference.

Last thing: This game is not only a game. It's a skillful means to see ingrained habitual modes of functioning (without a self or doer). Play full-heartedly.

Also do this exercise to repeat the insight of no-thinker. Do it as often as is intuitively helpful and improvise variations on it on your own.

Write words or thoughts one after another, don't wait for anything, just let word/thought after word/thought be generated and writen and for each one notice how it just comes by itself, there is no thinker or decider who knows it in advance. See how even when one words feels obviously associated to the last one, this association happens by itself. No thinker or decider in any of it.”

—

OK, I read all of the above multiple times today and tonight and it’s late. I will now do that last exercise here as a leaping-off point into tomorrow.

Blortch
Fart
Dildo
Kansas
Murgatroyd.
Vagina
Fuck
Jerk
Damn!
Ketchup
What?
Bonehead
Tra la la
Why not?
Swallow
Scheisse
Why why why why?
Phew
Tired, weepy
Tongue
Depression
Who knows why
pain
midriff
racist
brilliant genius
poverty
sucks.

I will do more tomorrow, and I will re-read what you sent along today plenty more times.
Thank you, thank you for your help and guidance.

The urge to say thank you arises, strongly.

Very best wishes from
Joshua

Hahahahaha - the mind doing it's thing huh :)

Please write me in your own words to show the understanding that expressing doubt, reservation, qualifiers (maybe, seems, think that, etc) automatically means coming from a place of analytical thought and dualism.

And find an example or two of doing that in the exercise you answered the other day (not the last one here) and rewrite it from inside the game.

[Elad]

Please write me in your own words to show the understanding that expressing doubt, reservation, qualifiers (maybe, seems, think that, etc) automatically means coming from a place of analytical thought and dualism

- keep this one short. Just make the same point I made with your own words shortly, don't add anything.

[JoshuaO]

Dear Elad -

It’s first thing Wednesday morning. The following are more word-flows while I look forward to hearing from you again later today.

Dogshit
Embarrassed
Flow
Palaver
Donkey
Liminal
Sadness
Exhale
Wedding
Endless
Barbra
Richness
Park Avenue
Toesies
Ficus
Distraction
Sunrise

—
More words/thoughts:
Breast
Bitter
Alarum
Flush
Tic-tac-toe
Ovum
Modal
Labia
Albumen
Doily
Dolly
Madison
Avenue
Fancy
Googly
Gambol
Gyrate
Pyrite
Fools

--

OK, that was earlier. Now I’m at work, and I have received your messages for today. Thank you for them. I am looking forward to re-reading what you wrote and to doing all of what you pointed me towards; thank you for all of it. Updates coming.

—

OK, now it’s much later — almost, maybe, too late to give proper time and effort to replying, after a whole day of looking forward to the chance to do so. It’s just 11pm now, and my wife and daughters are all asleep in their beds… and I’ve just walked the doggy, and… let’s see. Here’s what you last sent me, in response to some word/thought chains prior to those included above:

“Hahahahaha - the mind doing it's thing huh :)”

(I was so pleased at your reaction there, I meant to tell you).

You continued:

“Please write me in your own words to show the understanding that expressing doubt, reservation, qualifiers (maybe, seems, think that, etc) automatically means coming from a place of analytical thought and dualism.

And find an example or two of doing that in the exercise you answered the other day (not the last one here) and rewrite it from inside the game.”
(and also)
“- keep this one short. Just make the same point I made with your own words shortly, don't add anything.”

A little strangely, I had a much stronger grasp of the obviousness and clarity of what you point out here earlier today, at the outset of the day. I saw the “skillful means” that the game really is, when you put it that way. I will admit candidly that at the moment I need to gather myself a bit to refind the obviousness of it again… and need a moment to do so… and may need to beg your pardon and go to bed and rejoin the conversation again once I’ve slept a little bit here

But…give me a minute.

“You should not express doubts, reservations and qualifiers within the game!”

Right. And also: “What you can do within the game is write: AN IMPULSE to express reservation and doubt in order to be philosophically sober comes habitually by itself without a self.”

There is a tremendously powerful pointer in here, Elad, and thank you for it, and please pardon me for being a little “in-between” in my ability to express it well myself this late, this tired. I think I want to take another moment or two to re-center and strengthen my "getting it" and my ability to express in my own words the skillful means provided via what you have called “the game,” the opportunity it provides to see the habitual reactions one has taken for oneself as they arise instead of, at long last, apparently "being" them. I’m a little too exhausted at the moment to do the job the way I really want to, to make use of the “technology” you’ve provided here.

And so, begging your forbearance, I will rejoin you here again very soon, tomorrow. Thanks for your patience again. I look forward to fulfilling your request as soon as possible. For now, good night.

Best wishes and many thanks from
Joshua

[Elad]

Dear Elad -

It’s first thing Wednesday morning. The following are more word-flows while I look forward to hearing from you again later today.

Dogshit
Embarrassed
Flow
Palaver
Donkey
Liminal
Sadness
Exhale
Wedding
Endless
Barbra
Richness
Park Avenue
Toesies
Ficus
Distraction
Sunrise

—
More words/thoughts:
Breast
Bitter
Alarum
Flush
Tic-tac-toe
Ovum
Modal
Labia
Albumen
Doily
Dolly
Madison
Avenue
Fancy
Googly
Gambol
Gyrate
Pyrite
Fools

--

OK, that was earlier. Now I’m at work, and I have received your messages for today. Thank you for them. I am looking forward to re-reading what you wrote and to doing all of what you pointed me towards; thank you for all of it. Updates coming.

—

OK, now it’s much later — almost, maybe, too late to give proper time and effort to replying, after a whole day of looking forward to the chance to do so. It’s just 11pm now, and my wife and daughters are all asleep in their beds… and I’ve just walked the doggy, and… let’s see. Here’s what you last sent me, in response to some word/thought chains prior to those included above:

“Hahahahaha - the mind doing it's thing huh :)”

(I was so pleased at your reaction there, I meant to tell you).

You continued:

“Please write me in your own words to show the understanding that expressing doubt, reservation, qualifiers (maybe, seems, think that, etc) automatically means coming from a place of analytical thought and dualism.

And find an example or two of doing that in the exercise you answered the other day (not the last one here) and rewrite it from inside the game.”
(and also)
“- keep this one short. Just make the same point I made with your own words shortly, don't add anything.”

A little strangely, I had a much stronger grasp of the obviousness and clarity of what you point out here earlier today, at the outset of the day. I saw the “skillful means” that the game really is, when you put it that way. I will admit candidly that at the moment I need to gather myself a bit to refind the obviousness of it again… and need a moment to do so… and may need to beg your pardon and go to bed and rejoin the conversation again once I’ve slept a little bit here

But…give me a minute.

“You should not express doubts, reservations and qualifiers within the game!”

Right. And also: “What you can do within the game is write: AN IMPULSE to express reservation and doubt in order to be philosophically sober comes habitually by itself without a self.”

There is a tremendously powerful pointer in here, Elad, and thank you for it, and please pardon me for being a little “in-between” in my ability to express it well myself this late, this tired. I think I want to take another moment or two to re-center and strengthen my "getting it" and my ability to express in my own words the skillful means provided via what you have called “the game,” the opportunity it provides to see the habitual reactions one has taken for oneself as they arise instead of, at long last, apparently "being" them. I’m a little too exhausted at the moment to do the job the way I really want to, to make use of the “technology” you’ve provided here.

And so, begging your forbearance, I will rejoin you here again very soon, tomorrow. Thanks for your patience again. I look forward to fulfilling your request as soon as possible. For now, good night.

Best wishes and many thanks from
Joshua

Hi Josh, remember when you write to keep seeing and pointing to how it is happening without chooser/doer. You didn't do it clearly here.

And with yesterdays task that you will return to. The point is not for you to explain how it is a pointer. Just to say in your own words why the moment you say for example "*it seems* like no one is choosing" the answer is coming from analytic and dualistic mode. The seeing before the answer was direct. The hesitation or philosopical carefulness in saying "it seems" is the dualistic part. And dualisticly speaking it will never go beyond "it seems".

Remember - only answer from within the game. This is not a conversation outside the game for you now.

[JoshuaO]

Dear Elad -

I will not express doubts, reservations and qualifiers within the game.
I will not express doubts, reservations and qualifiers within the game.
I will not express doubts, reservations and qualifiers within the game.
I will also not talk about how it’s going better or worse, or that I am closer or further away.

Okay, so: first of all, another round (or two) of the suggested exercise now.

Sitting
Weeping
Sun
Fight the good fight
Talking
Yearning
Sighing
Confusion
Anger
Disgust
Assholery
Scare your enemies
Blather
Trying so fucking hard always
Endless
Who knows
Believing it
Stop stop stop
Can you cut the crap?
Smaller
Waxen
Sunshine
Doggy
Chill
Breathe
Flutter
Followthrough
Breathe
Wonder
Muscle tension
Break the spell
Wrestling
Goddamn it
Chewing
Pain, low back
Fear
HowmIdoing?
Nope
Shaking head
Twisting even this
Stop
Pause
Wait a moment

—

One more time
Flaxen
Double
Yale
Story
Sarah
Effort
Trouble
Impress
Blather
Gurgle
Inhale
Drop it
Tongue
Shoe
Wrist
Captive
Trying
Ache
Bumble
Dumpster
Actor
Toddy
MyMan
Doggytime
Faggotry
Eek
Pause
Vegetable
Aversion
Scratch
Holding on
Not going down without a fight

—

You said:
“Please write me in your own words to show the understanding that expressing doubt, reservation, qualifiers (maybe, seems, think that, etc) automatically means coming from a place of analytical thought and dualism.

And find an example or two of doing that in the exercise you answered the other day (not the last one here) and rewrite it from inside the game.

- keep this one short. Just make the same point I made with your own words shortly, don’t add anything.”

And then yesterday, last time, you wrote:

“Hi Josh, remember when you write to keep seeing and pointing to how it is happening without a chooser/doer. You didn’t do it clearly here [in what I had sent along to you last night].

“And with yesterday’s task you will return to. The point is not for you to explain how it is a pointer. Just to say in your own words why the moment you say for example “*it seems* like no one is choosing” the answer is coming from analystic and dualistic mode. The seeing before the answer was direct. The hesitation or philosophical carefulness in saying “it seems” is the dualistic part. And dualistically speaking it will never go beyond “it seems”.

Remember - only answer from within the game. This is not a conversation outside the game for you now.”

Hello Again Elad -

Large urges or impulses to “figure things out” arise here.

Feelings of tentativeness arise here too; feelings of insecurity arise as well.

You said:

“Please write me in your own words to show the understanding that expressing doubt, reservation, qualifiers (maybe, seems, think that, etc) automatically means coming from a place of analytical thought and dualism.”

Also: I should find an example or two of doing that in the exercise of the other day and rewrite it from inside the game.

Also: “keep this one short. Just make the same point I made with your own words shortly, don’t add anything.”

OK then, in my own words, briefly:

Expressing doubt or reservations or qualifiers of any sort is by definition the expression of thoughts. It is not the simple witnessing and then reporting on what is presently arising, which is not a matter of thought but of simply noticing whatever is presently arising.

Exercises like the “word/thought after word/thought” one you suggested provide the opportunity to see clearly, to notice, that words/thoughts arise by themselves, without a self.

You also asked me to “find an example or two of doing that in the exercise you answered the other day (not the last one here) and rewrite it from inside the game.”

From the other day’s exercise: I wrote then, in response to one of your questions
(which was: “Are you in control of the movement of will/intention?”)

“”I must admit that I am not immediately certain of the answer here (despite a strong suspicion that the answer is the same as those above). I would like to actually look at this before answering too swiftly here.””

“”I guess I'm not immediately sure how to “see” the movement of will/intention so very well right here and now. The suspicion arises that will/intention moves by itself and then gives the impression of authorship to… something here, to “me”; I want to stick with my (recent re)commitment and not give air to too much uncertainty, but I also want to be careful not to assert clear seeing when the experience here is less than perfectly clear. Nonetheless, “I” suspect that will and intention arise on their own and in doing so create a powerful impression of “I/me” wanting something, wanting to do something.””

REWRITE FROM INSIDE THE GAME:

The movement of will or intention happens powerfully and frequently, in many “directions”. It happens spontaneously and without help or drive from a “me” — nor from anyone else, for that matter.

Thank you again, Elad, truly. I look forward to hearing from you again.

Best wishes from
Joshua

[Elad]

Dear Elad -

I will not express doubts, reservations and qualifiers within the game.
I will not express doubts, reservations and qualifiers within the game.
I will not express doubts, reservations and qualifiers within the game.
I will also not talk about how it’s going better or worse, or that I am closer or further away.

Okay, so: first of all, another round (or two) of the suggested exercise now.

Sitting
Weeping
Sun
Fight the good fight
Talking
Yearning
Sighing
Confusion
Anger
Disgust
Assholery
Scare your enemies
Blather
Trying so fucking hard always
Endless
Who knows
Believing it
Stop stop stop
Can you cut the crap?
Smaller
Waxen
Sunshine
Doggy
Chill
Breathe
Flutter
Followthrough
Breathe
Wonder
Muscle tension
Break the spell
Wrestling
Goddamn it
Chewing
Pain, low back
Fear
HowmIdoing?
Nope
Shaking head
Twisting even this
Stop
Pause
Wait a moment

—

One more time
Flaxen
Double
Yale
Story
Sarah
Effort
Trouble
Impress
Blather
Gurgle
Inhale
Drop it
Tongue
Shoe
Wrist
Captive
Trying
Ache
Bumble
Dumpster
Actor
Toddy
MyMan
Doggytime
Faggotry
Eek
Pause
Vegetable
Aversion
Scratch
Holding on
Not going down without a fight

—

You said:
“Please write me in your own words to show the understanding that expressing doubt, reservation, qualifiers (maybe, seems, think that, etc) automatically means coming from a place of analytical thought and dualism.

And find an example or two of doing that in the exercise you answered the other day (not the last one here) and rewrite it from inside the game.

- keep this one short. Just make the same point I made with your own words shortly, don’t add anything.”

And then yesterday, last time, you wrote:

“Hi Josh, remember when you write to keep seeing and pointing to how it is happening without a chooser/doer. You didn’t do it clearly here [in what I had sent along to you last night].

“And with yesterday’s task you will return to. The point is not for you to explain how it is a pointer. Just to say in your own words why the moment you say for example “*it seems* like no one is choosing” the answer is coming from analystic and dualistic mode. The seeing before the answer was direct. The hesitation or philosophical carefulness in saying “it seems” is the dualistic part. And dualistically speaking it will never go beyond “it seems”.

Remember - only answer from within the game. This is not a conversation outside the game for you now.”

Hello Again Elad -

Large urges or impulses to “figure things out” arise here.

Feelings of tentativeness arise here too; feelings of insecurity arise as well.

You said:

“Please write me in your own words to show the understanding that expressing doubt, reservation, qualifiers (maybe, seems, think that, etc) automatically means coming from a place of analytical thought and dualism.”

Also: I should find an example or two of doing that in the exercise of the other day and rewrite it from inside the game.

Also: “keep this one short. Just make the same point I made with your own words shortly, don’t add anything.”

OK then, in my own words, briefly:

Expressing doubt or reservations or qualifiers of any sort is by definition the expression of thoughts. It is not the simple witnessing and then reporting on what is presently arising, which is not a matter of thought but of simply noticing whatever is presently arising.

Exercises like the “word/thought after word/thought” one you suggested provide the opportunity to see clearly, to notice, that words/thoughts arise by themselves, without a self.

You also asked me to “find an example or two of doing that in the exercise you answered the other day (not the last one here) and rewrite it from inside the game.”

From the other day’s exercise: I wrote then, in response to one of your questions
(which was: “Are you in control of the movement of will/intention?”)

“”I must admit that I am not immediately certain of the answer here (despite a strong suspicion that the answer is the same as those above). I would like to actually look at this before answering too swiftly here.””

“”I guess I'm not immediately sure how to “see” the movement of will/intention so very well right here and now. The suspicion arises that will/intention moves by itself and then gives the impression of authorship to… something here, to “me”; I want to stick with my (recent re)commitment and not give air to too much uncertainty, but I also want to be careful not to assert clear seeing when the experience here is less than perfectly clear. Nonetheless, “I” suspect that will and intention arise on their own and in doing so create a powerful impression of “I/me” wanting something, wanting to do something.””

REWRITE FROM INSIDE THE GAME:

The movement of will or intention happens powerfully and frequently, in many “directions”. It happens spontaneously and without help or drive from a “me” — nor from anyone else, for that matter.

Thank you again, Elad, truly. I look forward to hearing from you again.

Best wishes from
Joshua

Good stuff Joshua. Okay now practice with the following exercise the next day (or more we will see). Report to me about the experience from inside the game. I.e.: Every experience is welcome, but only in the context of seeing and expressing how it happens by itself.

[Elad]

This practice you can do whenever. In fact, I recommend you do it during the day when selfing pops up (by itself without choice).

We have direct experience, which is seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling + thought.

When there is a sense of self, separate it into the senses that are involved, and inquire into each sense.

For example, let's say I feel a sense of self behind the eyes, and there's a thought 'this is me'. I would inquire:

Sense of self behind the eyes = sensation = are these sensations the self?
Thought 'this is me' = thought = is this thought the self?
Image of self behind the eyes = thought = is this image the self?

Objections will likely rise up. If so, keep inquiring into those, such as 'Of course there is a self, I'm right here'.

Thought 'Of course there is a self, I'm right here' = thought = is that thought the self?

Then maybe there's a feeling, a contraction in the chest, so you inquire into that. Are those sensations the self? Where is it?

If you end up in a quiet place, rest there.

[JoshuaO]

Dear Elad -

You wrote: “Good stuff Joshua. Okay now practice with the following exercise the next day (or more we will see). Report to me about the experience from inside the game. I.e.: Every experience is welcome, but only in the context of seeing and expressing how it happens by itself.”

And then you wrote: “This practice you can do whenever. In fact, I recommend you do it during the day when selfing pops up (by itself without choice).

We have direct experience, which is seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling + thought.
When there is a sense of self, separate it into the senses that are involved, and inquire into each sense.
For example, let's say I feel a sense of self behind the eyes, and there's a thought 'this is me'. I would inquire:

Sense of self behind the eyes = sensation = are these sensations the self?
Thought 'this is me' = thought = is this thought the self?
Image of self behind the eyes = thought = is this image the self?

Objections will likely rise up. If so, keep inquiring into those, such as 'Of course there is a self, I'm right here'.
Thought 'Of course there is a self, I'm right here' = thought = is that thought the self?
Then maybe there's a feeling, a contraction in the chest, so you inquire into that. Are those sensations the self? Where is it?
If you end up in a quiet place, rest there.”

At the risk of restating the obvious: You also said, before that and earlier: “Remember - only answer from within the game. This is not a conversation outside the game for you now.”

OK, thank you.

This day has been very full of habitual living, Elad. Which is to say that “living from within the game” is not yet (not by a longshot) an effortless all-day-long life habit here. After a day like today, that one might in one’s habitual language describe as having been experienced as unusually challenging… effort appears necessary so as to reorient to the within-the-game attitude/perspective that one has sworn to uphold and abide by.

So maybe gimme a minute please.

I feel a sense of self in the personal sense of challenged-ness, almost cornered-ness, that is here now (and has been perceptible for much of this day).
It's almost a sense of seasickness, or tension, or almost-desperation, located in the high abdomen, maybe where the stomach is located, above the belly.
Sense of stomach-sickness is a sensation; is this sensation of sickness the self? No, its a physical sensation.

Thought also arises: “this sickness-feeling is such a familiar, habitual feeling — intensely disliked, but very familiar.”; Is this thought (or is that feeling) the self?
Neither the thought nor that feeling are the self.

Thought arises “this is the self you really are but always have wished you weren’t; the terrible truth that you don’t want to be true is true.”
Is this thought the self? No, it’s a thought.

More sort-of almost nausea arises in the belly. Is that feeling the self? No, it’s a feeling.

The almost-nausea does not appear to be going anywhere; it’s still here. But is it the self?
No, it’s a feeling. For a moment, a very-slightly-less-dominating feeling than usual, maybe. Still there, still not pleasant, but…

OK, my daughter came into the room bearing a large box of peppermint bark. Do you know what that is? Chocolate/peppermint candy, super yummy, very much a winter-season treat around here. I was completely distracted from the work of the exercise above. Having one last piece and getting back to the game in a moment.

Not sure if this counts as having ended up in a quiet place. Especially since both my daughters just came into my room here, yelling and fighting. Now they’re gone again, but I am completely “tzapotelt”. (Elad, do you understand Yiddish?). “Meshugah” might say it too.

Thank you again, Elad. I look forward to more, to hearing from you, and to continuing soon.

Best wishes from
Joshua

[Elad]

"This day has been very full of habitual living, Elad. Which is to say that “living from within the game” is not yet (not by a longshot) an effortless all-day-long life habit here.

Big time process evaluation here. Breaking the agreement.

[Elad]

In a different context I would respond to the humane sharings about your family, life and feelings. Not here now. Let's keep this focused.

Continue with the exercise and the game.