Hi Stacy.
Thank you. The moments of clarity are fleeting, but I will keep looking and try to notice the feelings xxx
Letting go
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Padmasukha
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Re: Letting go
Hi Stacy.
I have been concentrating on trying to put myself back in that place, but not really getting beyond trying! So I stop trying, just relax and see what comes, but just more thought arises.
When I focus on the awareness that these moments of clarity do appear here and there, what arises is a sensation of expansiveness in the chest.
With love and thanks xxx
Those moments of clarity are so fleeting. It's like once the moment has passed, what was realised has just become memory/knowledge/thought content. I still know what was seen, but the feeling is gone.Go deeply into how it feels to notice the things you described. Ignore thinking focus on direct actual experience of your 5 senses.
I have been concentrating on trying to put myself back in that place, but not really getting beyond trying! So I stop trying, just relax and see what comes, but just more thought arises.
When I focus on the awareness that these moments of clarity do appear here and there, what arises is a sensation of expansiveness in the chest.
With love and thanks xxx
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Anastacia42
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Re: Letting go
Yes, perfect. It doesn't matter if it is "fleeting." Seeing will come & go, maybe for years.
You must be relaxed, yes.
Can you find any "self" in Direct Experience? Or only thoughts saying there's a "self"
Did we look at the exercise about keys?
Explore ‘Sense of Self’
Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken.
This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.
Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:
Does the sense of self have a location?
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?
Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?
What is found?
Loving,
You must be relaxed, yes.
Yes!sensation of expansiveness in the chest.
Can you find any "self" in Direct Experience? Or only thoughts saying there's a "self"
Did we look at the exercise about keys?
Explore ‘Sense of Self’
Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken.
This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.
Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:
Does the sense of self have a location?
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?
Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?
What is found?
Loving,
~ Stacy
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
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Padmasukha
- Posts: 114
- Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:40 am
Re: Letting go
Hi Stacy.
Clearly, I still need to do it again!
And there was a glimpse of what it would be like if that nothing-to-defend-ness were continuous.
I think you will ask
I imagined the emotions and thoughts of aversion/defensiveness arising in that expansive blissfulness, and they just don't seem to matter at all. They seem really small, and there's no thought of needing to get rid of them either, because the bliss and space is so much 'bigger', and there's a kindly acceptance of everything within that.
With much love and gratitude xxxx
No. Just thoughts.Can you find any "self" in Direct Experience? Or only thoughts saying there's a "self"
We did. I answered it all wrong and you asked me to do it again :-DDid we look at the exercise about keys?
Clearly, I still need to do it again!
Explore ‘Sense of Self’
Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:
Looking at this again in meditation, I recall how the strongest sense of self appears when there is aversion/defensiveness appearing, and then failing to find a 'sense' of I that isn't sensation or thought, there was a clearer view of how there is nothing to defend, and a mental image of an absence of that 'cloud' of 'me-ness' 'inside', and so a clearer view that there is nothing to defend.Does the sense of self have a location?
And there was a glimpse of what it would be like if that nothing-to-defend-ness were continuous.
I think you will ask
And it feels very smiley! Expansive in the chest. Elated, Blissful.How does this FEEL in your body?
I imagined the emotions and thoughts of aversion/defensiveness arising in that expansive blissfulness, and they just don't seem to matter at all. They seem really small, and there's no thought of needing to get rid of them either, because the bliss and space is so much 'bigger', and there's a kindly acceptance of everything within that.
No. But the sense of selflessness is just vast!Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
No.Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
It doesn't.If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?
No.Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
Thoughts. A narrative.What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?
Today, that to lose the sense of self is to be free.What is found?
With much love and gratitude xxxx
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Anastacia42
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Re: Letting go
Good morning Steph
So there's no "sense of self" to be found anywhere? Only thoughts?
Is there anything more to seek?
Loving,
So there's no "sense of self" to be found anywhere? Only thoughts?
This is true. That expansivness is the opposite of the contracted lie feeling we looked at.And it feels very smiley! Expansive in the chest. Elated, Blissful. ...
to lose the sense of self is to be free.
Is there anything more to seek?
Loving,
~ Stacy
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
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Padmasukha
- Posts: 114
- Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:40 am
Re: Letting go
Good Morning, Stacy.
I posted before that there is no sense of self when it's looked for, but when going about other daily activities it is still there. But since reading these questions in your post, a letting go has kind of expanded, and much more of the time now when thoughts/attitudes/emotions/views are arising, they - and the associated sensations in the body - are just observed, and then there's a relaxing, and letting them be or pass without getting involved with them. And with this letting go comes that expansive, peaceful feeling in the chest/being/mind. Just recognising more and more frequently that everything is just arising in dependence on causes and conditions with no self directing it, and there's a clearer view of how just letting everything go without craving or aversion, or identification, necessarily results in peace and clarity.
I'm not completely sure what you're asking for here, but my first thought was that you were asking if I think we're done here, which got a really strong craving reaction of not wanting to go on without you, ha ha! But the difference between now and when we started is that now I notice that craving straight away for what it is and can laugh at it! I think I could go on without you now. It's like you brought me to the veil and showed me how to poke some holes in it, and now I know how to do that, and know that it's possible, I can carry on doing it. There is some fear of losing momentum and backsliding if your constant prompts aren't there, but then there's the thought that the process is just unfolding by itself and will continue to do so by whatever means. What do you think?
Your question prompted really close examination of whether I think there is anything more to seek. And one of the responses was 'Load the jump programme!' Ha ha! I've been feeling a bit like Neo, when he makes the jump but his conviction/belief/concentration fails half way and he falls and hits the ground. It's like I read your instructions, jump, but don't quite jump with 100% of what is required to fully land it. But that's just a view, because often there is a breakthrough, and it's underlying expectations which are waiting for some bigger 'mind blown' experience to manifest.
Then there's a question about whether I have quietly passed through the Gateless Gate with small steps without realising that it's happened. And then a thought that there is no veil to rend, only a realisation that there is no veil. That the veil is just the thought that there is a veil; the thought that there is a Gate. I looked at the Enlightening Quotes app, and it said 'Do you think you are through the Gate? There is no 'me' to go through the gate.' No me. No Gate. Just awakening unfolding. The lotus opening.
Is there anything left to seek?
A deepening awareness of what has been seen and, more widely, a deepening of awareness of bodhicitta. 🙏🙏🙏
With much love and gratitude xxxx
Only thoughts. When I'm looking there is no sense of self to be found, because there is no sense of self there to find. Only thoughts of a self, which in combination with direct experience give an illusion of a self.So there's no "sense of self" to be found anywhere? Only thoughts?
I posted before that there is no sense of self when it's looked for, but when going about other daily activities it is still there. But since reading these questions in your post, a letting go has kind of expanded, and much more of the time now when thoughts/attitudes/emotions/views are arising, they - and the associated sensations in the body - are just observed, and then there's a relaxing, and letting them be or pass without getting involved with them. And with this letting go comes that expansive, peaceful feeling in the chest/being/mind. Just recognising more and more frequently that everything is just arising in dependence on causes and conditions with no self directing it, and there's a clearer view of how just letting everything go without craving or aversion, or identification, necessarily results in peace and clarity.
Wow! This really through all my expectations into sharp relief!Is there anything more to seek?
I'm not completely sure what you're asking for here, but my first thought was that you were asking if I think we're done here, which got a really strong craving reaction of not wanting to go on without you, ha ha! But the difference between now and when we started is that now I notice that craving straight away for what it is and can laugh at it! I think I could go on without you now. It's like you brought me to the veil and showed me how to poke some holes in it, and now I know how to do that, and know that it's possible, I can carry on doing it. There is some fear of losing momentum and backsliding if your constant prompts aren't there, but then there's the thought that the process is just unfolding by itself and will continue to do so by whatever means. What do you think?
Your question prompted really close examination of whether I think there is anything more to seek. And one of the responses was 'Load the jump programme!' Ha ha! I've been feeling a bit like Neo, when he makes the jump but his conviction/belief/concentration fails half way and he falls and hits the ground. It's like I read your instructions, jump, but don't quite jump with 100% of what is required to fully land it. But that's just a view, because often there is a breakthrough, and it's underlying expectations which are waiting for some bigger 'mind blown' experience to manifest.
Then there's a question about whether I have quietly passed through the Gateless Gate with small steps without realising that it's happened. And then a thought that there is no veil to rend, only a realisation that there is no veil. That the veil is just the thought that there is a veil; the thought that there is a Gate. I looked at the Enlightening Quotes app, and it said 'Do you think you are through the Gate? There is no 'me' to go through the gate.' No me. No Gate. Just awakening unfolding. The lotus opening.
Is there anything left to seek?
A deepening awareness of what has been seen and, more widely, a deepening of awareness of bodhicitta. 🙏🙏🙏
With much love and gratitude xxxx
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Anastacia42
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Re: Letting go
Good morning, Steph!
Brilliant. Seeing no self and crossing the Gateless Gate is just the first step. Yes, there is plenty still to see and to align your life to what is now seen.
I won't be disappearing in a puff of smoke, so you can still ask questions even after you answer the traditional final questions. There is an Aftercare group, but it has become inactive. Yesterday we had a guides meeting and it was decided to try to offer that kind of support in a different form, in a once a month meeting on video conference. You will be invited to the Facebook group and notified of this when it happens. And if you don't see it in a while, ask me and we can check.
So it sounds like you are ready for final questions. I can ask if you want that and wait for your answer, but it sounds like you did answer already above, so here are the traditional final questions. Sometimes they show us whether there is anything that needs to be cleared up, too.
Take your time. Quote each question separately and then answer underneath, please.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.
Describe intention & give examples from experience.
Describe free will & give examples from experience.
Describe choice & give examples from experience.
Describe control & give examples from experience.
What makes things happen? How does it work?
What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?
Loving,
Brilliant. Seeing no self and crossing the Gateless Gate is just the first step. Yes, there is plenty still to see and to align your life to what is now seen.
I won't be disappearing in a puff of smoke, so you can still ask questions even after you answer the traditional final questions. There is an Aftercare group, but it has become inactive. Yesterday we had a guides meeting and it was decided to try to offer that kind of support in a different form, in a once a month meeting on video conference. You will be invited to the Facebook group and notified of this when it happens. And if you don't see it in a while, ask me and we can check.
So it sounds like you are ready for final questions. I can ask if you want that and wait for your answer, but it sounds like you did answer already above, so here are the traditional final questions. Sometimes they show us whether there is anything that needs to be cleared up, too.
Take your time. Quote each question separately and then answer underneath, please.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.
Describe intention & give examples from experience.
Describe free will & give examples from experience.
Describe choice & give examples from experience.
Describe control & give examples from experience.
What makes things happen? How does it work?
What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?
Loving,
~ Stacy
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
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Padmasukha
- Posts: 114
- Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:40 am
Re: Letting go
Hi Stacy,
Thanks so much for your replies and questions.
I'm at my sister's for a few days to help her with some stuff as she has M.E., so if it's OK with you I think I'll wait until I'm home to give my full attention to these questions.
With much love and gratitude, Steph xxx
Thanks so much for your replies and questions.
I'm at my sister's for a few days to help her with some stuff as she has M.E., so if it's OK with you I think I'll wait until I'm home to give my full attention to these questions.
With much love and gratitude, Steph xxx
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Anastacia42
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Re: Letting go
You're welcome.
I'll watch for your replies.
Much love,
I'll watch for your replies.
Much love,
~ Stacy
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
-
Anastacia42
- Posts: 11896
- Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
- Contact:
Re: Letting go
Good morning, Steph,
Are you still out there? How is it going?
Loving,
Are you still out there? How is it going?
Loving,
~ Stacy
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
-
Padmasukha
- Posts: 114
- Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:40 am
Re: Letting go
Good Morning.
I am still here :-) Thanks for asking. I've had a busy and emotional week with my family. I felt like I was doing pretty well with this stuff, but having some really strong emotional responses to some family difficulties, and finding it hard to step out of/back from those experiences, has made me question my progress.
I have looked at the questions, but haven't found the time or headspace needed to address them. This week will be quieter, and I'll get back to posting regularly.
With much love and thanks xxx
I am still here :-) Thanks for asking. I've had a busy and emotional week with my family. I felt like I was doing pretty well with this stuff, but having some really strong emotional responses to some family difficulties, and finding it hard to step out of/back from those experiences, has made me question my progress.
I have looked at the questions, but haven't found the time or headspace needed to address them. This week will be quieter, and I'll get back to posting regularly.
With much love and thanks xxx
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Anastacia42
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- Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
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Re: Letting go
Hi Steph,
Yes, lots of things can still come up post- seeing no self. Usually, this has to do with reorienting our lives to align with what we now see.
Do you recall that emotions are simply Sensation plus a story? The Work of Byron Katie is very good for clearing this sort of thing. We have an aftercare group based on that, but it is very inactive. Once you answer final questions, you will be invited to those groups for support.
I doubt your progress is threatened in any way, but it can sure seem like it! Let me know if I can help.
Much love,
Stacy
Yes, lots of things can still come up post- seeing no self. Usually, this has to do with reorienting our lives to align with what we now see.
Do you recall that emotions are simply Sensation plus a story? The Work of Byron Katie is very good for clearing this sort of thing. We have an aftercare group based on that, but it is very inactive. Once you answer final questions, you will be invited to those groups for support.
I doubt your progress is threatened in any way, but it can sure seem like it! Let me know if I can help.
Much love,
Stacy
~ Stacy
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
-
Padmasukha
- Posts: 114
- Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:40 am
Re: Letting go
Hi Stacy.
Thanks for your kind reply.
I've started working through the final questions, and think it would be best to answer all of them before posting my replies, because I expect my first answers may change as I work through the others.
With much love and gratitude xxx
Thanks for your kind reply.
Yes. But on occasions this week, the thought 'this is just sensation plus a big old story' would arise, but remembering that truth didn't give rise to the emotions dissolving. The sensation would persist and the story thoughts would continue arising.Do you recall that emotions are simply Sensation plus a story?
I would be interested in reading some of her work. Could you point me to something of hers to start on?The Work of Byron Katie is very good for clearing this sort of thing.
Thanks. That's encouraging!I doubt your progress is threatened in any way, but it can sure seem like it!
I've started working through the final questions, and think it would be best to answer all of them before posting my replies, because I expect my first answers may change as I work through the others.
With much love and gratitude xxx
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Anastacia42
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Re: Letting go
Hi Steph,
Busy day here.
Yes, we need all final answers in one reply. Others will be checking behind me to make sure I have not missed anything.
Only reading Byron Katie will not show you the truth. It will teach you the process and give you examples. That said, read "Loving What Is." You write a Worksheet and apply 4 questions and Turn Arounds with proofs. I can facilitate these, but not in this forum. It is too tedious here. You can call the free help line or hire a facilitator. All of that is found on her web site www.thework.com
It can, and usually does, take years to sort out other things beyond seeing no self and aligning our lives with that truth.
Loving,
Stacy
Busy day here.
Yes, we need all final answers in one reply. Others will be checking behind me to make sure I have not missed anything.
Sure. That will happen. But did you *believe* them?The sensation would persist and the story thoughts would continue arising.
Only reading Byron Katie will not show you the truth. It will teach you the process and give you examples. That said, read "Loving What Is." You write a Worksheet and apply 4 questions and Turn Arounds with proofs. I can facilitate these, but not in this forum. It is too tedious here. You can call the free help line or hire a facilitator. All of that is found on her web site www.thework.com
It can, and usually does, take years to sort out other things beyond seeing no self and aligning our lives with that truth.
Loving,
Stacy
~ Stacy
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
-
Padmasukha
- Posts: 114
- Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:40 am
Re: Letting go
Hi Stacy,
With much love and thanks xxx
The sensation would persist and the story thoughts would continue arising.
It was worries about someone's mental health, so it was more like anxious speculation than old patterns of thought repeating, and there wasn't really anything to believe or not believe, just uncertainty, as there is no telling how her condition and situation might unfold.Sure. That will happen. But did you *believe* them?
Thank you. I had a look at her website and realised that I'd come across it before, some years ago. Thanks for reminding me about her work.Only reading Byron Katie will not show you the truth. It will teach you the process and give you examples.
Thanks. I'll bear that in mind :-)It can, and usually does, take years to sort out other things beyond seeing no self and aligning our lives with that truth.
With much love and thanks xxx
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