Getting closer ...

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

Just gonna take another day or so to look at this again.

Chris

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

And is there a real self/me inside thoughts?

No, it is not real.

And how does it FEEL to see that the self is just an illusion and not a real tangible entity?

Sometimes strange, sometimes relieving (a relief, in that it takes some of the pressure off the shoulders).
Right now in this moment, it feels satisfying.

Is there any doubt?

There isn't any doubt regarding the illusion. Doubts are seen to appear in thought, and therefore within imagination.
Sometimes there are doubts, but not right now in this moment.

Any? Even a slightest?

Normally we investigate only in the now. But if you are asking in general, I could say that at times during the day there are some slight doubts, yes. Sometimes there are thought stories present, and it takes a bit of time before I can see them as just being thought stories. Sometimes I completely forget that the 'me' is just illusion.
But this is not the case right here now.

Is there a self to sense?

There are thoughts present, and now....sensations present.
There is no 'sense', just sensations. No 'sensing', just sensations that get labelled as 'sensing'. And there isn't a 'self' to be found.

Is there Chris without a story about Chris?

Right now with quiet mind and without very much story, there is silence... stillness.
Thoughts come and go, some of them say "Chris!"...but they are being witnessed. There are sensations immediately after the auditory thought "Chris!" which feel expansive/familiar, along with visual thought of the face and then alternating physical sensation around the face area and then more visual thought processes delineating the shape of the jaw.
Well I'll be damned! It really is quite amazing to see this so clearly.
There isn't a Chris without the story, but there's a damn good illusion of one!!

What drives the story about Chris?

When I look for this, I find immediately something that is recognised to be the driver, but then within a split second it is seen to be just a sensation.
And again....
same thing happens when I look a second time.

Is Chris here right now?

Right now there is...
looking around the room, at objects....breathing....auditory thought pops up "Chris!". More breathing....alternating sensations and visual imagery delineating the shape of the jaw. Then visual imagery of the eyes.
We could label all of this as 'Chris'. But there is no need to right now in-this-moment, and existence is still carrying on perfectly fine without us doing so.

Vivien, I have to admit I am absolutely blown away by seeing this so clearly again and again. It is this alternating sensation combined with visual imagery delineating face/jawline/eyes (which can happen quick as a flash) which is the clearest seeing.
It really is amazing seeing it so clearly and precisely.

The only thing I still feel some resistance around - or doubts - is the aspect of there not being free will and everything happening automatically. It is just so huge to get my head around - what kind of intelligence is there out there that could be so vast as to be doing all of this?? (I understand of course we can't discuss things of a philosophical or spiritual nature though, and that's okay).

It is way easier to see the components that make up the 'me' than it is to get my head around everything-happening-automatically. I can't find a doer. And I can't find the one who has to get his head around it.
But still, it is really, really strange.

So, can I actually find Everything-Happening-Automatically in observation?
In the moment (or more accurately, the micro-moment) I cannot find Everything. I cannot find Automatically.
Just 'What Is' in the moment. But this just feels fleeting. Not a really, really clear seeing.
Is this the right direction Vivien, or would you point me in a different direction with this?

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

You did an excellent looking. Well done!

Right now with quiet mind and without very much story, there is silence... stillness.

Beautiful :) This silence or stillness is the answer :) just stay with it.

Thoughts come and go, some of them say "Chris!"...but they are being witnessed.

And what is witnessing the coming and going of thoughts?
Is there a witness outside of experience looking IN to witness thoughts?

When I look for this, I find immediately something that is recognised to be the driver, but then within a split second it is seen to be just a sensation.

Yes, the ‘driver of the story’ is an illusion! It’s just a plain sensation, nothing more.

Vivien, I have to admit I am absolutely blown away by seeing this so clearly again and again. It is this alternating sensation combined with visual imagery delineating face/jawline/eyes (which can happen quick as a flash) which is the clearest seeing.
It really is amazing seeing it so clearly and precisely.

Beautiful :)

The only thing I still feel some resistance around - or doubts - is the aspect of there not being free will and everything happening automatically. It is just so huge to get my head around - what kind of intelligence is there out there that could be so vast as to be doing all of this?? (I understand of course we can't discuss things of a philosophical or spiritual nature though, and that's okay).

OK. It’s important that you don’t go to story-land and fantasize or speculate about anything.
Rather look at your immediate experience.
Whenever you are in doubt, look, what is here, right now, WITHOUT any thought interpretation or speculation.

So, can I actually find Everything-Happening-Automatically in observation?
In the moment (or more accurately, the micro-moment) I cannot find Everything. I cannot find Automatically.

Isn’t the body moving? Isn’t the body breathing? Isn’t your posts are typed?
Isn’t always everything in change? Isn’t life constantly happening on its own?
A thought comes, and then it goes. There might be a sudden faint sound as the fridge turns on. Then a thought arises to drink something. Then the body stands up, and makes a cup of tea.

Isn’t all of these happen on autopilot?
Or is there a doer and a decider somewhere?

If there is no self/Chris outside of the story about Chris, what is it that could have free will?

There has to be a separate self, a REAL TANGIBLE self, which is separate form everything else, in order to have free will. Free will isn’t possible without a separate entity.

So is there a separate entity, which could have a free will?
Does the character Chris has free will? Can a thought-character have free will?

It’s very important that you don’t go to speculating about any form of ‘intelligence’ or anything at all.
Rather look at your immediate experience without any thought interpretation.

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

And what is witnessing the coming and going of thoughts?

There isn't a witnessing, when I 'look' (so hard to find accurate words to use here without them sounding contradictory).
There are thoughts....sensations. There is silence (or nothingness), and the thoughts appear. Not from the silence/nothingness as it were...it's more accurate to say they 'just appear'.

Is there a witness outside of experience looking IN to witness thoughts?

From actual looking right now, there isn't a location to the thoughts. So there is no 'IN'. There are sensations present also, and the sensations form part of the illusion of both witnessing, and location. It is the sensations combining with thoughts to give the illusion of location. They are not actively 'doing' this like little entities - this is clearly seen right now. There is just what-is-happening arising.

Isn’t all of these happen on autopilot?

And now, in this moment, it is very still/quiet. Not much happening...
...there are subtle sensations and mini-thoughts arising a little bit now, completely on autopilot.

Or is there a doer and a decider somewhere?

Fingers moving/twitching...chewing gum being chewed. Without a 'doer' or 'decider'.
Then...as I 'decide' to witness some thoughts...there is sensation there straightaway giving the illusion that a decider decided this.

If there is no self/Chris outside of the story about Chris, what is it that could have free will?

There are only the thoughts and sensations...and they don't have free will.

So is there a separate entity, which could have a free will?

No, right now there are just sensations, which can be seen to be the illusion of entity.

Does the character Chris has free will? Can a thought-character have free will?

Character Chris exists (he doesn't exist but I am just using words/language to describe as best I can) within 'Time'...which can quite easily be seen to be just complete imaginary (as I sit here 'planning' for the future etc). So no....there is no free will there...not in Chris-Character-in-Time.
The other place (of course these aren't places/locations as such, I am just using language as best I can) that I look for Chris Character, as a moment-to-moment 'decision-maker', is the Here-Now. And here I just find thoughts/sensations....or simply sensations. They arise on autopilot and without free will.

Apologies if this isn't very clear to read today but I am trying to describe two slightly different Lookings here. This is because yesterday I was getting a bit thrown by the 'Chris character with free will' around the idea of making long-term plans/goals. We had covered so much ground Looking at immediate present experience with sensations/thoughts a lot recently, and so I had neglected Looking at the thoughts around long term stuff. I Looked at this a lot though today and it was quite easily seen that this was just thought-story that had got caught up in the illusion of Time. And therefore imaginary. Easy to see, but easily overlooked.

It's funny how at this point it can become tricky to find language/words to describe the phenomena of what is happening.

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

You did a great looking again. I'm giving you some more questions, just to make sure that there is no stone left unturned.

Is the me-character the creator or the created?
Is the character in the story creating what happens in the story or the story about the character creates itself, one thought at a time?

Whom does the "story" belong to?
Is there a creator of story, separate from the story itself?

The story of "me’ can seem to have continuity. But is it really continuous? Or are there simply isolated thoughts that never can truly touch each other, some of them claiming that there's one continuous story?

Thoughts show up and tell a story.
And what is here underneath thinking?

Is there any doubt about control?
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing a chooser?
Is it completely clear that there is no I/me choosing or deciding?
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing as choice or free will?
If not, please write some examples when it seems to be otherwise.

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

I'll have a bit more of a look at these over the next day or so and get back to you.

Thanks,

Chris

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

Is the me-character the creator or the created?

It is an illusion 'created' in the imagination through thoughts. It is not the creator.

Is the character in the story creating what happens in the story or the story about the character creates itself, one thought at a time?

Yes, the latter. It creates itself one thought at a time.

Whom does the "story" belong to?
Is there a creator of story, separate from the story itself?

The story doesn't actually belong to anyone. And there is no creator of story.
No owner. No storymaker.

The story of "me’ can seem to have continuity. But is it really continuous? Or are there simply isolated thoughts that never can truly touch each other, some of them claiming that there's one continuous story?

It has the illusion of continuity. There are thought patterns present. Various thought patterns....and as I look I see space between them. There is Nothing in the space.
So no, they don't truly touch each other.

Thoughts show up and tell a story.
And what is here underneath thinking?

Underneath thinking....Nothing. Before thought....Nothing.
Interspersed with thought....Nothing.
I also see the sensations adding to the illusion of the story as being real.

Is there any doubt about control?

No doubt.

Is it totally clear that there is no such thing a chooser?

Yes it's clear now.

Is it completely clear that there is no I/me choosing or deciding?

Yes it is clear.

Is it totally clear that there is no such thing as choice or free will?

Yes, this is also clear. Totally.

If not, please write some examples when it seems to be otherwise.

I can't find any right now in this moment.

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

Again, you did an excellent looking :)

Tomorrow, if you can, go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time.

Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colours, sensations come and go.

Notice that everything is part of one movement.

Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?
Is there an inside and an outside of Life?
Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?
Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?
Is witnessing part of the one movement too?
Is there anything which is not just happening?
Is there anything which is separate from life, from what is?

Go out, come back and tell me what you found.

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

I did this kind of looking a few days ago and had a moment of very clear 'seeing', down at the beach.

But with this walk that I took today, it wasn't quite as good. It was just okay. Maybe I had expectations that it would be as clear a 'seeing' as the other day.

Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?

I didn't find a boundary or line.

Is there an inside and an outside of Life?

No, not in observation. It's not about locations...

Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?

Not from observation, no.

Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?

No, it didn't have a location, the witnessing. It was more....with it. With the Experience. With Life.
Sorry I can't describe it better right now.

Is witnessing part of the one movement too?

This is perhaps a better way to describe what I was trying to say in the reply above.

Is there anything which is not just happening?

All is just happening..

Is there anything which is separate from life, from what is?

In this exercise, All could be seen to be just Life...What Is...


Something about this exercise that feels very gentle Vivien. Right now I'm noticing a curiosity arising towards looking at this some more. But gently...not as vigilant as some of the previous lookings we've done.

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

Something about this exercise that feels very gentle Vivien. Right now I'm noticing a curiosity arising towards looking at this some more. But gently...not as vigilant as some of the previous lookings we've done.

All right. If you feel drawn to look at this more, than make it so :)

Let me know what you find.

Also look, if there is anything that is not 100% clear. Anything you would like to look at more.

But with this walk that I took today, it wasn't quite as good. It was just okay. Maybe I had expectations that it would be as clear a 'seeing' as the other day.

This comparison can happen only in thoughts. So it’s conceptual.

But how could any moment be the same as ‘other moments''? Doesn’t everything always new and fresh? Unfolding on its own spontaneously?

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

All right. If you feel drawn to look at this more, than make it so :)

Let me know what you find.

I walked again today and looked again. And I want to look some more tomorrow again and report back then....as I want to find the right words to express, and they haven't come to me yet.

Will write more tomorrow...

Chris

[Vivien]

All right Chris :)

[Chris1001]

Vivien, I'm a bit poorly and need to rest. My apologies. I'll be in touch as soon as I'm feeling a bit better again.
Chris

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

I haven't been great these past days. I had to take some medication and it left me really drowsy and exhausted. I still did the Looking though as best I could, but am not sure it was hugely productive :(

Let me know what you find.

I Looked to see if I could find separation when walking in nature.

Initially, didn't find separation whilst 'mind' was inactive.

I noticed during the Looking...how it is 'mind' that then steps in and starts 'talking the language' of separation, i.e. words and sentences arising in the form of auditory thought (mental chatter) around the subject of separation.

I noticed I was subtly looking for/hoping for, or expecting a certain state, whilst doing this Looking. It was hard to avoid this expectation to be honest, as it was sooo subtle.

But how could any moment be the same as ‘other moments''? Doesn’t everything always new and fresh? Unfolding on its own spontaneously?

Yes, of course.
But it feels like this is coming from a place of speculation when I say "of course". It doesn't feel 'embodied' or visceral. Again....am I expecting states here?

Also look, if there is anything that is not 100% clear. Anything you would like to look at more.

That is a big question. Are you saying we're nearly done?

I feel like I've seen a decent amount of the Illusion of separate self when it comes to observing the 'inner' world, but perhaps not so much when observing the 'outer' world. I found it much easier to witness what was going on in the world of thoughts and sensations, and I haven't had such clear 'seeings' when observing the 'outside' world. When looking at thought/sensations I don't expect any states....but when observing the 'outer world' I am subtly expecting states.

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

It’s good to hear from you again.

Initially, didn't find separation whilst 'mind' was inactive.
I noticed during the Looking...how it is 'mind' that then steps in and starts 'talking the language' of separation, i.e. words and sentences arising in the form of auditory thought (mental chatter) around the subject of separation.

When thoughts are quiet it’s easy to see. What happens when thoughts are talking? Is commentary running by itself? Or is there an ‘I’ talking?
And is the commentary creating a real FELT separation, or just the illusion of it?
Is there an expectation to be in a state of constantly seeing no-separation?

But it feels like this is coming from a place of speculation when I say "of course". It doesn't feel 'embodied' or visceral. Again....am I expecting states here?

What does ‘embodied’ or visceral would feel like? How do you imagine it?

but when observing the 'outer world' I am subtly expecting states.

And what kind of state do you expect?
Please be as precise as you can.

It’s important to be clear on your expectations. Since these expectations are preventing you from seeing and accepting of what IS. And yes, I will take your comments apart to help you to see that those are in the way.

That is a big question. Are you saying we're nearly done?

I don’t know yet. It depends on the clarity of your seeing. We won’t stop until you feel comfortable to let this conversation go, and of course, until the self illusion is clearly seen.

Vivien