Looking to end my suffering caused my attachment to dependan

[JonathanR]

Hi Sandy,

Good answer! OK. I would like to ask other guides to take a look at our conversation soon. This can be really helpful, a pooling of experience and it sometimes generates very interesting questions.

I asked you the six questions some pages back and we have really been discussing various things since then, some of which, such as 'soul' emerged from your answers. Also your original answers came back in chunks and i have not been able to cobble them together easily so as to present them to the other guides. I know it may be a pain but could you please briefly answer the six questions again now and this time all in one go? No need to expand answers at length, just answer as clearly as possible, from direct experience? Here they are (and if you need a day or two to do it I will understand).

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2)Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3)How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4)What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5)Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

Thanks Sandy,


Jon

[ilazmit]

Hello Jon,
1)

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no separate entity called "self". There never was.
2)

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of separate self is when we see the "voice over" as that which makes things happen, and as if it were separate from nature or life.
The "voice over" starts usually after an event, and usually as a means of gauging an experience much like a sports commentator.
Since I've started this dialogue with you Jon , the "voice overs' or "separate self" seemed to be varied and at odds with each other, now "the voice overs" have become more unified. The "voice overs" are now appreciated , then released like clouds in the sky, or to just let flow .
3)

3)How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

In the past few days emotions from the heart have percolated to the surface because the mind has been quietened.
Before the past few weeks the mind dominated and created redundant scenarios. Given that I had been ditched by my lover , this was painful. In view of my heart , everything is just fine for the moment but that's o.k. This too shall pass.
4)

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Aside from my cat, the deep looking pushed me over.It was the first time I acknowledged the sensations of heart, not necessarily the voice as of yet. I am sure the heart has been present but the varied nervous sensations of the various toned "voice overs" took precedent, and caused overriding sensations in the gut and throat. By acknowledging and appreciating all these sensations and voices the conclusion drawn is that there definitely isn't anybody in charge. It's much more peaceful when they all shut-up or float on by with much appreciation.
5)

5)Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

There is no separate "I" that has any control over thoughts. They drift by like clouds in the sky. So there is no separate entity to make things happen.
For example, there is no control over the thoughts of missing a loved one, if there were, such painful thoughts would be eliminated. Just embrace and let them flow, don't have a choice and they flow by because of my having come across you, Jon. Appreciation from the heart.
6)[quote) Anything to add?][/quote] Your art is beautiful. Jon.

[JonathanR]

Hi Sandy,

Thank you for answering these again. Just one question. For question 2 you say

The illusion of separate self is when we see the "voice over" as that which makes things happen,

Are you saying that the voice-over makes things happen?

Jon

[ilazmit]

Hello Jon,

I was wondering if you could give me your opinion on something before I attempt to answer your question. Does communicating with others have to involve "self" or "voice over"?

Sandy

[JonathanR]

Hi Sandy,

I was wondering if you could give me your opinion on something before I attempt to answer your question. Does communicating with others have to involve "self" or "voice over"?

OK but please let me know why you ask?

Jon

[ilazmit]

Hello Jon,
I'm really tired so I hope I make sense.

The illusion of separate self is when we see the "voice over" as that which makes things happen,

What I meant to say was that the illusion of the separate self is when we think the "voice over" runs the show. It's much like a play where the script has been decided on. To take the "self" seriously would be like assuming that the actors are improvising when they are really following a script.

The 'self" to me seems to be some type of translator , or it tries to shape the world into terms that we can communicate, possibly within ourself or with others. I'm just trying to get a grip on how nothing gets done between people communicating with one another, for example, I teach aqua-form and heard the horrible news that one of my clients son recently committed suicide because his wife left him I can't help but think that should the son have taken this workshop he would still be alive. Something would have happened, gotten done. Me go dodo.

Later gator,
sandy

[JonathanR]

Hi Sandy,

What I meant to say was that the illusion of the separate self is when we think the "voice over" runs the show. It's much like a play where the script has been decided on. To take the "self" seriously would be like assuming that the actors are improvising when they are really following a script.

Yes, that's a good way of putting it.

The 'self" to me seems to be some type of translator , or it tries to shape the world into terms that we can communicate, possibly within ourself or with others. I'm just trying to get a grip on how nothing gets done between people communicating with one another, for example, I teach aqua-form and heard the horrible news that one of my clients son recently committed suicide because his wife left him I can't help but think that should the son have taken this workshop he would still be alive. Something would have happened, gotten done.

Sorry to hear that.

Yes but that's a thought about what might have happened, isn't it? Yes, the human thinking function seems to relate to biological survival and thoughts present quite complex scenarios that never move beyond being stories or 'voice-over'. Some of these can prove useful in the survival campaign but is there ever an underlying 'me' that creates such thoughts, or do they appear automatically?

You need to look carefully at how things DO happen, not how they are supposed to happen or might happen. To do this it is necessary only to refer to what can be seen happening as it happens. Any speculation is thought about a thought-future or thought-past, isn't it?

Does people communicating with one another make any of them have a 'self'? They may well imagine that they have a self but perhaps none of them do?

Could it be that each apparent person's thoughts appear automatically and do not involve the 'intention' or 'will' of a 'self' (though one is assumed) in order for exchange of notions to take place and for things to happen?

It's not that 'nothing gets done' is it? Things happen, jobs get done, but is there ever owned 'control, intention, choice, free will or decisions'?

Isn't ownership of all these simply assumed and claimed by the voice-over?

love

Jon

[ilazmit]

Hello Jon,
Too tired to respond tonight and for some reason I'm feeling a little dizzy. Nighty-night. tomorrow.
Sandy

[JonathanR]

Hi Sandy,

Ok, fair enough. Long shift again?

Jon

[ilazmit]

Hi Jon,

Long shifts, Yes, with all the spring breaks I've been working harder than usual , 55 hrs. this week, and I work in a chlorinated milieu.
I've been watching my mind function and trying not to judge. I guess you might say I've been trying to get to know my "voice over". I've got to let it float on by and not focus on it so that I can be present to look at how things really do happen while they are happening. I'm really going to work on this for the next while, "vive le moment present"
It's really nice to know that you can be in a rage and curse someone without feeling guilty or that you are responsible. Instead of repressing it , I've been letting it flow.
I'm really tired , so me go dodo. I hope all is well with you, Jon.
Sandy

[JonathanR]

Hi Sandy,

I guess you might say I've been trying to get to know my "voice over". I've got to let it float on by and not focus on it so that I can be present to look at how things really do happen while they are happening. I'm really going to work on this for the next while, "vive le moment present"

Perfect. Yes, It's just a case of noticing what ever is happening in the forever moment of Now. Sometimes that will be the appearance of thoughts and even a feeling of identification with apparent 'I' (maybe a bit like watching a film and identifying for a while with one of the characters). You are absolutely right to talk of letting thoughts float by without great focus on what they 'say'.

It's really nice to know that you can be in a rage and curse someone without feeling guilty or that you are responsible. Instead of repressing it , I've been letting it flow.

Hmm. Well, whilst letting things flow is good I wouldn't recommend raging and cursing at people. It may well sting them and isn't kind.

Best wishes,

Jon

[ilazmit]

Hi Jon,

Hmm. Well, whilst letting things flow is good I wouldn't recommend raging and cursing at people. It may well sting them and isn't kind.

You are such a sweety . Have to change the way of writing , can't say, I'll try to be good , because there is no "I". That phrase has some influence. This "apparent entity" will be influenced. Nighty Night.
Love
Sandy

[JonathanR]

No, there is no need to change the way of writing. We can still use 'I' but understand it doesn't mean a real entity pulling strings somewhere, but an illusion, a thought.

Let me know how your investigations are going,


Jon

[ilazmit]

Hello Jon,

I've been looking and noticing certain repetitive thought patterns pop up. I've been wondering why these thought patterns insist on continually rising to the surface and I've come to the conclusion that the body has to mourn the death of a relationship. It just has to happen and then be finished with, otherwise why do these thoughts seem so persistent and painful? I will contiune to investigate the forever moment of now. Nighty night.
Love
Sandy

[JonathanR]

Hi Sandy,

Good looking.

Have you had a chance to look at this yet?:

It's not that 'nothing gets done' is it? Things happen, jobs get done, but is there ever owned 'control, intention, choice, free will or decisions'?

love

Jon