Looking for guide :)

[Pete777]

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No – the sensations doesn’t say anything about length without images.

Does it have a weight or a volume of the body?

there are sensations – thoughts say these imply weight. Without thought: only sensations, no volume.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

sensations doesn’t imply form – form is an image.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

there are only sensations. – thought says it’s becayse body meets clothing.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

same answer as above.

Is there an inside or outside?

there are only sensations.

What is the body in the actual experience?

sensations


(btw. Actual experience: why exclude sight, isn’t that part of the actual experience?)

still quite some frustration about the looking at this. Thoughts come all the time, and no “eureka” to any of these tasks.

[Vivien]

Dear Pete,

No, but it may correspond with something in reality. If I think that the keys are in my pocket, and upon checking they are found, the thought is “correct”.

Yes, but the thought is not the thing itself.
A thought about a key is just a mental concept with an arising mental image of a ‘key’ with the mental label ‘here is my key’ but neither the image nor the label (thought) is ‘real’. However, as arising image and arising thoughts they are there, they are ‘real’, but not their content (what it’s about). Can you see this?

there are only sensations. – thought says it’s becayse body meets clothing.

Yes, only thoughts and mental images suggest only that there is a subject (body) that is touching the object (clothing). But in the actual experience there is neither subject nor object, only touching. Can you see this?

Is there a hearer of sounds, or just hearing?
Is there a see-er of sights, or just seeing?
Is there a smeller of smells, or just smelling?
Is there a taster of tastes, or just tasting?
Is there a feeler of sensation, or just sensation?
Is there a thinker of thoughts or just thinking?
Is there an experiencer of experience (this life)...or just life?

Please go through these questions one-by-one. Not just think of them, but actually eat some food and taste it; so when about smelling, actually smell something (same with the other senses).

(btw. Actual experience: why exclude sight, isn’t that part of the actual experience?)

No, sight doesn’t have to be excluded; you can practice with sight too.

still quite some frustration about the looking at this. Thoughts come all the time, and no “eureka” to any of these tasks.

Ohh dear Pete, these are HUGE and UNREALISTIC expectations.

Just because seeing through the illusion has happened THOUGHTS WON’T STOP!!! Neither the identification with them! (sometimes there is identification, sometimes not)

Just because seeing through the illusion happened, it doesn’t mean that there is or will be any eureka!!! For some there are, but for many it is a gradual process without any distinct eureka moment. For me it was gradual too, with lots of small steps without any huge eureka moment. And even if for some there is a moment of eureka, THIS IS NOT A ONE-TIME EVENT! THIS IS NOT THE END! This is just the beginning… which has no end at all.

Love, Vivien

[Pete777]

haha thx for ur answer vivien. Regarding the illusion of a self I've learned that expecting thoughts to stop and that there may not be a "eureka". But I'm talking about the tasks u gave me. There is a belief that I'm not doing these tasks properly - hence the frustration.

Ex: the question: "how long is the body in DE?" I can see that sensations only doesn't give this information (however: sight gives this information, which makes me wonder why I should close my eyes). However, seeing this doesn't result in an "a-ha"moment for me. And there is a belief here that you want me to experience "oneness" or that the body isn't separate or something similar. This hasn't been experienced here. It feels more like Im just giving the teacher a textbook answer. So I'm curious if I've really done the tasks correctly.
WIll answer ur new questions tomorrow.

-Pete

[Pete777]

Yes, but the thought is not the thing itself.
A thought about a key is just a mental concept with an arising mental image of a ‘key’ with the mental label ‘here is my key’ but neither the image nor the label (thought) is ‘real’. However, as arising image and arising thoughts they are there, they are ‘real’, but not their content (what it’s about). Can you see this?

Yes.

But in the actual experience there is neither subject nor object, only touching. Can you see this?

Yes, or in other words: without thoughts/images there is only touching.

Is there a hearer of sounds, or just hearing?

There is hearing, and then it is a thought that says “I” do it. This thought is sometimes seen to just arise by itself – no “me” doing it. When this is seen, the answer is seen to be “just hearing”.

Is there a see-er of sights, or just seeing?

Same experience here. When the thought is seen as just a thought, there is nothing left but seeing in sights.

Is there a smeller of smells, or just smelling?

Smelled an orange. A thought comes “I” smelled this. Tried to look for the “I” – no I is found, but the thought isn’t seen as impersonal. Remember that this seeing doesn’t always happen – the answer must still be “only smelling”. But it Is seen indirectly.

Is there a taster of tastes, or just tasting?

Same answer. Tasted some jam. Taste + thought “I” tasted this + sensation in the head. Tried to see if the sensation in the head + the thought made the sense of me. Can find nothing but thoughts and sensations when looking. So the answer must be “just tasting”.

Is there a feeler of sensation, or just sensation?

Pinched my arm. Felt pain, and a thought “I” + sensations in the head. Can’t find nothing but thoughts and sensations - so the answer is “just sensation”

Is there a thinker of thoughts or just thinking?

Can’t find a thinker of thoughts in DE. The thinker only appears as content of thought.

Is there an experiencer of experience (this life)...or just life?
Can’t find any experiencer of life in DE.

[Vivien]

Dear Pete,

"how long is the body in DE?" I can see that sensations only doesn't give this information (however: sight gives this information, which makes me wonder why I should close my eyes)

Really? Can sight give any information?
How on earth a patch of colours can give any information on length or anything? – LOOK!

And can the body be seen (visually) as a whole at all or just in parts?
For example can the head be seen at all (without mirror)?

Stand in front of a mirror and look at the image seen.
How is it known that the image in the mirror is the ‘same’ as being felt (sensed)?
Is there any link between the visual image in the mirror and the felt sensations?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is any?

Look at one of the hands directly (not from the mirror) while paying attention to the felt sensations (of the hand).
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the sight?
Or only thoughts suggest it?

However, seeing this doesn't result in an "a-ha"moment for me.

Why seeing this should result in any a-ha moment? EXPECTATION again!

And there is a belief here that you want me to experience "oneness" or that the body isn't separate or something similar. This hasn't been experienced here. It feels more like Im just giving the teacher a textbook answer. So I'm curious if I've really done the tasks correctly.

Dear Pete, this is just a projection! ‘Your’ beliefs are projected to the mental image of Vivien. I don’t have the expectation of having you seeing oneness. The purpose of these exercises is NOT to see oneness. This is just a story. And by the way, oneness is a very tricky word… very often misused and totally misunderstood.

The purpose of these exercises is to see that there is no subject (anything) that is doing seeing/observing of objects, but there is only seeing or observing. There isn’t a body (subject) touching the object (chair), there is only touching.

There is hearing, and then it is a thought that says “I” do it. This thought is sometimes seen to just arise by itself – no “me” doing it. When this is seen, the answer is seen to be “just hearing”.

Good looking.

Vivien: Is there a smeller of smells, or just smelling?

Pete: Smelled an orange. A thought comes “I” smelled this. Tried to look for the “I” – no I is found, but the thought isn’t seen as impersonal. Remember that this seeing doesn’t always happen – the answer must still be “only smelling”. But it Is seen indirectly.

Please do it again, do it as many times as needed. Let me know how it goes.

Can’t find a thinker of thoughts in DE.

and

Can’t find any experiencer of life in DE.

So is there direct experience and non-direct experience?
If so, how a non-direct experience is experienced exactly?
Is anything ‘outside’ of direct experience?

“Can’t find a thinker of thoughts in DE” – can a thinker of thoughts be found ANYWHERE in ANY FORM?
“Can’t find any experience of life in DE” – can an experience of life be found ANYWHERE in ANY FORM?

Love, Vivien

[Pete777]

"how long is the body in DE?" I can see that sensations only doesn't give this information (however: sight gives this information, which makes me wonder why I should close my eyes)

Really? Can sight give any information?

It can give visual information. But see my answer below

How on earth a patch of colours can give any information on length or anything? – LOOK!

imagining to be a baby and looking at my body – the body is just some things. The thing about a body having length is a thought that’s added onto the seeing after. So in this way I can see what you point to. At the same time length is just a word stuck onto the visual experience – in that sense length can be seen.

And can the body be seen (visually) as a whole at all or just in parts?

Just in parts.

For example can the head be seen at all (without mirror)?

not all of it, just a few parts of the face: part of the nose, eyebrows and lips, tongue, cheeks

How is it known that the image in the mirror is the ‘same’ as being felt (sensed)?

Through thought

Is there any link between the visual image in the mirror and the felt sensations?

No – no link between sight and sensation. Moving the hand it moves just the same. Still the necessity of this isn’t seen. So the answer is no.

Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is any?

Yes.

Look at one of the hands directly (not from the mirror) while paying attention to the felt sensations (of the hand).
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the sight?

The sensations come from the same place as the hand appears in visual sight. but there is no "connection" between sight and sensation.

Or only thoughts suggest it?

Yes, only thoughts suggest it

Vivien: Is there a smeller of smells, or just smelling?

Pete: Smelled an orange. A thought comes “I” smelled this. Tried to look for the “I” – no I is found, but the thought isn’t seen as impersonal. Remember that this seeing doesn’t always happen – the answer must still be “only smelling”. But it Is seen indirectly.

Please do it again, do it as many times as needed. Let me know how it goes.

Yes – think this task may be understood better now. Instead of having to fight the thoughts or see that they origin from nowhere, it’s enough to see that it is thoughts – and then see if there is a me in the tasting sense. Will do this task again for the other senses.

Can’t find any experiencer of life in DE.

So is there direct experience and non-direct experience?

Well – a better distinction may be this: being lost in thought and not.

If so, how a non-direct experience is experienced exactly?

See above

Is anything ‘outside’ of direct experience?

Well, I still think that there may be something outside the DE over here. F.ex the DE that uses the name vivien. This is only a thought in my DE, and can’t be “known” from this DE.

“Can’t find a thinker of thoughts in DE” – can a thinker of thoughts be found ANYWHERE in ANY FORM?

Only as content of thought

“Can’t find any experience of life in DE” – can an experience of life be found ANYWHERE in ANY FORM?

Only as content of thought.

[Vivien]

Dear Pete,

The thing about a body having length is a thought that’s added onto the seeing after. So in this way I can see what you point to. At the same time length is just a word stuck onto the visual experience – in that sense length can be seen.

Yes. But it also can be seen that the visual image doesn’t say anything about the length. Length is just a label/thought and as valid as any other thoughts.

The sensations come from the same place as the hand appears in visual sight. but there is no "connection" between sight and sensation.

Could you please explain a bit what do you mean by “the sensation s come from the same place as the hand appears in visual sight”?

Yes – think this task may be understood better now. Instead of having to fight the thoughts or see that they origin from nowhere, it’s enough to see that it is thoughts – and then see if there is a me in the tasting sense. Will do this task again for the other senses.

Yes, exactly. Good looking.

Pete: Can’t find any experiencer of life in DE.

Vivien: So is there direct experience and non-direct experience?

Pete: Well – a better distinction may be this: being lost in thought and not.

Yes, but please answer my question.

Is there direct experience and non-direct experience?

Vivien: Is anything ‘outside’ of direct experience?
Pete: Well, I still think that there may be something outside the DE over here. F.ex the DE that uses the name vivien. This is only a thought in my DE, and can’t be “known” from this DE.

Ohh yes :) The emphasis on the words in read “I think”… so these thoughts suggests that there are multiple direct experiences… but can this be really known?

So it presumes that there are individual bodies that are called like Pete or Vivien, and each of these bodies have their own version of DE. This is very tricky, because this can be a new form of subtle identification. The belief that ‘I am a separate entity’ can be replaced (or rather layered over) with a new beliefs in multitude direct experiences that are linked to different bodies. And I’m the one that is having this segment of DE that this body has. In this way the identification can be kept in place only the object of it changes.

What is the body in the actual experience?
The body doesn’t have experiences, quite the opposite, the body is being experienced. Can you see this?

Love, Vivien

[Pete777]

Hi, Vivien


looks like I forgot to post my answer. Here it comes.

Could you please explain a bit what do you mean by “the sensation s come from the same place as the hand appears in visual sight”?

If I close my eyes, feel where my hand is, and then open my eyes, the hand is seen. On the other hand, when looking at the hand and feeling the sensations, there is no thing connecting sensation and sight, other than the assumption that they come from the same thing.

Is there direct experience and non-direct experience?

I don’t know what non-direct experience would be. Being lost in thoughts is also a direct experience, so the answer is no.

Vivien: Is anything ‘outside’ of direct experience?

Pete: Well, I still think that there may be something outside the DE over here. F.ex the DE that uses the name vivien. This is only a thought in my DE, and can’t be “known” from this DE.

Ohh yes :) The emphasis on the words in read “I think”… so these thoughts suggests that there are multiple direct experiences… but can this be really known?

No, as I wrote in my last reply “This is only a thought in my DE, and can’t be “known” from this DE.” So the answer is still: this can’t be known

What is the body in the actual experience?

With eyes open, the body is a set of colors + sensations.
With eyes closed the body is a set of sensations.

The body doesn’t have experiences, quite the opposite, the body is being experienced. Can you see this?

Yes, colors and sensations don’t have an experience.

[Vivien]

Dear Pete,

If I close my eyes, feel where my hand is, and then open my eyes, the hand is seen.

The pure sensation doesn’t tell where it comes from. The SEEMING location doesn’t come from the sensation, but from the mental image ‘of the hand’ that appears when the focus is on the sensation.

Whenever the focus goes to a certain body part, a mental image of that body part emerges as well… so the mental conclusion that the sensation is coming from the hand is derived from the ‘content of’ the image not from the sensation. Can you see this?

Previously you wrote:

I feel like I’m choosing, but the next moment this I Is seen to be a thought. Is it then really a chooser? No, at least not in DE. It may be a chooser that’s outside awareness, but it’s not “me” (the brain chooses).

How do you see this now?
What is making a choosing?
Is there anything making a choosing or choosing just happen?


Love, Vivien

[Pete777]

The pure sensation doesn’t tell where it comes from. The SEEMING location doesn’t come from the sensation, but from the mental image ‘of the hand’ that appears when the focus is on the sensation.

Whenever the focus goes to a certain body part, a mental image of that body part emerges as well… so the mental conclusion that the sensation is coming from the hand is derived from the ‘content of’ the image not from the sensation. Can you see this?

Answer from looking: I’ve been trying to look for what you say here. It brings much frustration. There was one moment where I believe it was seen that the sensations doesn’t have a location without the mental image. But honestly, I don’t know if I’m deluding myself. Most of the time when feeling the sensation, it seems so obvious that I can look right at it, even if I moved my hand while my eyes were closed. And even though I discard thouhgts about it - so that before looking it isn't "known" what's there".

Thought answer: It also seems strange to me that the image of the hand also has information about where the hand is located, so that it is possible to know this with the eyes closed. I haven't found such thought information when looking. Maybe I need to look better.

I feel like I’m choosing, but the next moment this I Is seen to be a thought. Is it then really a chooser? No, at least not in DE. It may be a chooser that’s outside awareness, but it’s not “me” (the brain chooses).

How do you see this now?

First I’d like to say that there’s a story here that I’m never going to see this properly, and that you’re tired of all this non-progression. Regarding your question: The decision to do something arises, and the doer of this is only found in the content of thought.

What is making a choosing?

Don’t know

Is there anything making a choosing or choosing just happen?

Choosing just happens.

[Vivien]

Dear Pete,

Answer from looking: I’ve been trying to look for what you say here. It brings much frustration. There was one moment where I believe it was seen that the sensations doesn’t have a location without the mental image. But honestly, I don’t know if I’m deluding myself. Most of the time when feeling the sensation, it seems so obvious that I can look right at it, even if I moved my hand while my eyes were closed. And even though I discard thouhgts about it - so that before looking it isn't "known" what's there".

This exercise is not related directly to seeing that the self is just an illusion. Actually, it is a post-seeing exercise. So no worries if seeing this doesn’t come at once.

First I’d like to say that there’s a story here that I’m never going to see this properly, and that you’re tired of all this non-progression.

Yes, this is just a story… And what is a story? Thoughts and mental images appearing right here, right now, in this moment. Nothing more, nothing real.
(Just as a side note, I’m not tired of this… I’m here with you as long as it’s needed :)

“I’m never going to see this properly” – what does the ‘I’ in this sentence refer to exactly?

Is there anything missing in this moment?
Is there anything ‘outside’ of this moment?

The decision to do something arises, and the doer of this is only found in the content of thought.

So is there a decision maker as a real entity?
What is the doer exactly that can be found in the content of thoughts?

Love, Vivien

[Pete777]

will answer tomorrow

[Pete777]

“I’m never going to see this properly” – what does the ‘I’ in this sentence refer to exactly?

Other thoughts about “me”.

Is there anything missing in this moment?

Well, some thoughts says sleep and company. And these thoughts are believed to some extent.

Is there anything ‘outside’ of this moment?

According to the content of thoughts there is. But this can’t be “known” through the senses.

The decision to do something arises, and the doer of this is only found in the content of thought.

So is there a decision maker as a real entity?

Not one that can be known. The decision just arises.

What is the doer exactly that can be found in the content of thoughts?

It’s the “I”.

[Vivien]

Dear Pete,

Vivien: “I’m never going to see this properly” – what does the ‘I’ in this sentence refer to exactly?

Pete: Other thoughts about “me”.

So ‘I’ (as a thought) am never going to see this properly?????

Can a thought see anything?
What can a thought do?
Is there anything missing in this moment?

Pete: Well, some thoughts says sleep and company. And these thoughts are believed to some extent.

When I say in this moment, I don’t refer to a duration in time… if you say that sleep and company is missing than you refer to a duration of time… and not to this moment…

So let’s examine time a bit…

There is a general assumption that there is a linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time or an event that is moving forward on this linear time, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But do you have an experience that the now is moving along the line of time?
How fast the present moment is actually moving?
How long does the now last?
Where does it start and where does it end?
When does the now exactly become the 'past'?
What is the past in the actual experience?

Vivien: So is there a decision maker as a real entity?

Pete: Not one that can be known. The decision just arises.

This answer implies that although there isn’t a decision maker as a real entity that can be known, but it still might be there outside of knowing of it.

How is it known that a decision maker can be there outside of the knowing of it? How?
Where is this outside?

Vivien: What is the doer exactly that can be found in the content of thoughts?

Pete: It’s the “I”.

And what is this ‘I’ exactly?
And how can this ‘I’ do anything? How?
Can the content of a thought do anything? Can a thought do anything?
Is there a dividing line between the content of a thought and the thought itself?

Love, Vivien

[Pete777]

Can a thought see anything?

no

What can a thought do?

It can’t do anything

Is there anything missing in this moment?

if you say that sleep and company is missing than you refer to a duration of time… and not to this moment.

Thought answer: How come company refers to duration of time. Can’t company be of the moment?

Answer from looking: nothing is missing in the 5 senses. So there are only thoughts about anything missing.

But do you have an experience that the now is moving along the line of time?

no

How fast the present moment is actually moving?

It isn’t experienced to be moving

How long does the now last?

I’ve only experienced “now”

Where does it start and where does it end?

Looking: Don’t know. Thoughts: starts when waking up in morning, ends when falling to sleep

When does the now exactly become the 'past'?

Looking: never experience this shift. Thoughts: the now becomes the past all the time

What is the past in the actual experience?

Only content of thoughts