Zen Of Chaos-this is your thread

[ZenOfchaos]

sounds like a plan Stan

lol. jolly good.

with the numbers there was awareness of 'sound', of lips sometimes moving, of tiny movements in vocal chords, of differing speeds of which the numbers moved, and of the mind trying to get involved in where the numbers should stops; ie "don't stop here, too obviuos!" "wait till the mind doesn't know you're going to stop" "maybe not the next one"

with the letters it was similar and i tried to notice the absence of anyone doing it but because it was sequential lettering it didn't seem random enough...so the idea popped into the old noggin to mix it up and see what letter would jump out in random order.

letters would appear randomly, even a few numbers (wtf). Here it could be seen that there was no-one picking the numbers or letters. they just appear seemingly at random without any evidence of thinking about them before hand.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi,

sounds like a plan Stan

lol. jolly good.

with the numbers there was awareness of 'sound', of lips sometimes moving, of tiny movements in vocal chords, of differing speeds of which the numbers moved, and of the mind trying to get involved in where the numbers should stops; ie "don't stop here, too obviuos!" "wait till the mind doesn't know you're going to stop" "maybe not the next one"

with the letters it was similar and i tried to notice the absence of anyone doing it but because it was sequential lettering it didn't seem random enough...so the idea popped into the old noggin to mix it up and see what letter would jump out in random order.

letters would appear randomly, even a few numbers (wtf). Here it could be seen that there was no-one picking the numbers or letters. they just appear seemingly at random without any evidence of thinking about them before hand.

So, you like jazz. haha :)

There's no-one picking the number or letters. What is the experience of no-one?

Best wishes,
John

[ZenOfchaos]

surreal and short-lived. it can be funny to see it happen and not know what will come up

it brings up a slight fear too. a fear that there is no control over what thoughts come up and that there might be a wave of emotionally violent or grotesque thoughts

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi,

surreal and short-lived. it can be funny to see it happen and not know what will come up

it brings up a slight fear too. a fear that there is no control over what thoughts come up and that there might be a wave of emotionally violent or grotesque thoughts

Look at what's happened today, from waking to now. Be honest, has there been one single moment of being supposedly "in control" or has one thought/feeling/action let to another to another - and despite there being no control, has there ever been a sense of feeling "out of control".

Best wishes,
John

[ZenOfchaos]

we could retrospect but you know the problems with that :)

when i relax enough and concentrate to look at the present moment it can be seen that actions and thoughts simply arise. Like scratching of the head, deciding what to type, or when to go to bed. There is a sense of control; like the me has to make decisions, has to exert control but that is a presupposition. a presupposition that there is an I that can or cannot be in control.

"out of control"....hmmn, maybe not but certainly feelings of not being able to exert control. feelings of hanging on to control whatever little i seemed to have at the time. Living with anxiety over the years there has always been that perceived battle of control; ie not having control but trying to control what little you could - breathing, emotion, hanging on etc

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi,

we could retrospect but you know the problems with that :)

when i relax enough and concentrate to look at the present moment it can be seen that actions and thoughts simply arise. Like scratching of the head, deciding what to type, or when to go to bed. There is a sense of control; like the me has to make decisions, has to exert control but that is a presupposition. a presupposition that there is an I that can or cannot be in control.

"out of control"....hmmn, maybe not but certainly feelings of not being able to exert control. feelings of hanging on to control whatever little i seemed to have at the time. Living with anxiety over the years there has always been that perceived battle of control; ie not having control but trying to control what little you could - breathing, emotion, hanging on etc

Great response - thank you.

What has been the fear "over the years"?

Many thanks,
John

[ZenOfchaos]

its shifted over the years. started with a fear of being sick, then some social anxiety, general anxiety, fear of the fear, fear of future. One of the core ones has always been 'a fear of being in a situation that i can't get out of with panic'; like being stuck in a plane, or a lift or another country or something. Its taken on different forms and intensities over the years.

All presumably a fear of loss or threat to the self maybe.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi,

its shifted over the years. started with a fear of being sick, then some social anxiety, general anxiety, fear of the fear, fear of future. One of the core ones has always been 'a fear of being in a situation that i can't get out of with panic'; like being stuck in a plane, or a lift or another country or something. Its taken on different forms and intensities over the years.

All presumably a fear of loss or threat to the self maybe.

For myself, it was probably fear that, behind the scenes, that managed to self-scupper most of my attempts. I was afraid to give up myself I suppose. Sounds silly now, but when it felt like "me" was all I had, to give that up was a big ask. Particularly, when what was to be received in return was un-specified at best.

Perhaps you could ask the "fear" what it is protecting? What is it afraid of? And who's fear is it?

With best wishes,
John

[ZenOfchaos]

It comes and goes; i've asked that before but maybe not with resolute attention during the worst of it. Maybe its been more of "Right fear...what are you protecting?" then hiding behind the sofa :)

ironic that it was a period of very intense fear that I had some kind of awakening that led me onto this enquiry

For myself, it was probably fear that, behind the scenes, that managed to self-scupper most of my attempts.

i'm sure many are like that too. What was it for you that got you through the fear during this process?

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi,

It comes and goes; i've asked that before but maybe not with resolute attention during the worst of it. Maybe its been more of "Right fear...what are you protecting?" then hiding behind the sofa :)

haha :) Dr Who-style.

ironic that it was a period of very intense fear that I had some kind of awakening that led me onto this enquiry

For myself, it was probably fear that, behind the scenes, that managed to self-scupper most of my attempts.

i'm sure many are like that too. What was it for you that got you through the fear during this process?

It took a while before I got what (my) fear was about. In a nutshell, fear is the name of the response that occurs when the status quo of "how things are" appears to be under threat. Basically, how you see the world & you is deemed to be safe. Clearly, anything that looks to challenge that has the possibility of introducing an unknown, and the unknown brings up the fear response. This description is just a fiction by the way, but the description that showed up.

Over the years, I'd got used to "looking fear in the eye", sitting with it, including it, letting it wash through. Once you get to know it, it's like "How to train your dragon" LMAO :) - it's not so bad after all. But you know, we're all different.

Anyhow, enough about me. :)

Do you feel that a better handling of fear would open the doors more widely to seeing this?

With best wishes,
John

[ZenOfchaos]

yeah, its stopping me from looking whole heartedly at the moment I think

It was fear that brought me here so I like to think of it in terms of Jacob's Ladder...."If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. If you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth." :)

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi,

yeah, its stopping me from looking whole heartedly at the moment I think

It was fear that brought me here so I like to think of it in terms of Jacob's Ladder...."If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. If you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth." :)

Ok, well let's get to know a little more of that which is sometimes labelled "fear".

With respect to this inquiry, if the notion that there is no "you" is taken in to explore as a possibility, neither true nor false, is there a response which might be labelled "fear"? ...and if so, notice what happens when it's seen purely as a moving sensation/feeling - letting it be, neither pushing it away or bringing it close, just observing, noticing.

Once it's washed through, share what showed up.

Best wishes,
John

[ZenOfchaos]

Sorry space, i've been real busy recently.

the mind tends to change its mind when the notion of no me in explored. It goes through several possibilities some good, some bad.
No fear comes directly from thinking about it. i've been moving house which has been fearful at times in itself so i wanted to get that through and get settled a bit before really looking again.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi,

Sorry space, i've been real busy recently.

the mind tends to change its mind when the notion of no me in explored. It goes through several possibilities some good, some bad.
No fear comes directly from thinking about it. i've been moving house which has been fearful at times in itself so i wanted to get that through and get settled a bit before really looking again.

Thanks for letting me know.

As an exercise, play with adding the phrase, "what appears to be..." to sentences involving mind, fear, me etc.

So rather than "the mind", replace with "what appears to be mind..."
Rather than "fear", it's "what appears to be fear..."
Rather than "I", "me", it's "what appears to be I/me..."

Notice the difference in experience. The "appears to be" provides the space for awareness to operate and see.

With best wishes,
John

[ZenOfchaos]

Sorry for not being around. Life has been unkind of late! Although I remember that little zen story of the master who always said "maybe". Maybe it is unkind, maybe it's not...or maybe it just is.

anyway. One of the reasons I have not been around (other than not having 5 minutes to myself) is that I have been afraid to look honestly and fully. Don't feel strong enough yet to manage any strong fear should it arise.

Nevertheless, on occasion such as today I delve into looking and wanted to ask you two questions;

1. Are we anything more than a brain? consciousness, awareness, god... is everything we are just processes of the brain or something more???

2. I was looking into suffering and the sufferer. Ok so if there is no "me" then there is no sufferer. But is there still sufferring? Are we merely replacing one way of looking at it to another?