Looking for a guide

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie
This is exactly the territory where “no-self” stops being a cool idea and starts bumping into real life.
Let’s untangle this...
In any difficult moment, there are always roughly three “layers”:
1.DE / what’s here now - warm bed, screen glow, body sensations, sounds, thoughts appearing.
2.Story about what’s here - “This is sadness about my husband / the future / my life.” “Things are going to be awful.”
3.Ownership of the story - “This is happening to me.” “My burden, my trauma, my life falling apart.”

Seeing through story (2) does not mean stories stop. It just means (3) — the owner — is seen as imagined. You don’t need to kill the story. Just keep gently checking... In this moment, where exactly is the “me” this is happening to?

You’re already doing this:

In DE, I’m sitting in my bed, warm and comfortable, typing this up. …

Yes. That’s layer 1.

The story spins out with dire predictions… It isn’t truth or reality.

That’s you seeing layer 2 as story.

But still there is identification. There is a feeling that all of this is happening to ME.

That’s layer 3 — the “me” who supposedly sits in the middle of it all.
So the practice now isn’t to kill the story. It’s to keep gently looking... Where exactly is the one this is happening to?

Previously, I was dismissing stories and trying to not give them any attention, and trying to actively disbelieve them. That was quite hard.

Yup. Because that’s still the self-improvement manager trying to control the narrative: “Good spiritual person doesn’t believe stories. So I must shut stories down. Am I doing it right yet?!” That’s just another story.
"You" don’t need to believe the story or fight the story. You can just see: “Ah, story is happening.”
Like an icon on the desktop, you don’t have to delete it and to open every single one. You just don’t confuse the icon with an actual physical mailbox / coffee mug / emergency.
The goal is not “no story.” The “goal” (if we even call it that) is simply seeing story as story.
You can also inquire into to whom this confusion of how to deal with stories belongs? Who is charge of stories - letting them be or getting rid of them?

I’m really not sure how to drop ownership without spiritual bypassing.

This is where spiritual bypass worries come in, and it’s good you’re wary of that. There are:
Practical facts - there is a diagnosis. There may be appointments, limitations, changes in functioning. Those are relatively real and often need real-world response.
Emotional reality - grief, fear, anger, tenderness, love, exhaustion. These are felt in the body right now.
Narrative overlays - “This is awful.” “The future will be unbearable.” “I won’t cope.” “My life is ruined.” “I’m the victim of the universe’s cruelty.”
The first two are not bypassed. They’re met fully. The third is where suffering multiplies. So you might gently ask, in real time:
What is the simple fact here?
“He has X diagnosis.” “Today he did that.” “We don’t know exactly how fast this will progress.”
What is the story I’m adding?
“This means the future will be X.” “This means I am trapped / doomed / alone.” “This proves I will never be okay.”
Where is the ‘me’ all this is happening to?
In actual experience, is there anything more than: sensations in the body, images and words in the mind, the sight of your husband moving, speaking, forgetting, etc.
The story doesn’t have to be “ignored”. It’s just not taken as the whole truth, and not taken as belonging to a solid, separate owner.

So lets apply this…
While everything absolutely is fine right now, my husband still has an awful diagnosis and there will be huge problems ahead. Is that story, to be ignored, or allowed to run quietly in the background?
Let’s dissect that gently:
“Awful diagnosis” – the “awful” part is story covering grief and fear.
“There will be huge problems ahead” – pure future story. Vivid, yes. But still just imagined scenarios now.
Bypass would be:
“There is no diagnosis, it’s all an illusion, nothing matters, so I don’t have to feel or plan anything.”
Clarity is more like:
“There is a diagnosis. This is likely to be very hard. Fear and sadness arise. That’s allowed. Practical steps may need to be taken. And all of it — fear, planning, love, tears — is still THIS, still weather, still not happening to a separate ‘me’.”
You can call the doctor, ask for help, cry, rest, laugh at a silly show, make tea … all while knowing there is no little controller inside who owns or manages any of it. Life caring for itself can still use stories as tools. This is not bypass; it’s functioning.
So the key difference between spiritual bypassing, ownership and seeing is this
Ownership says:
“It does feel like it’s happening to me. And I do feel like a victim of this circumstance.”
Non-bypass allowing says:
“Sadness is here. Fear is here. Tightness in the chest is here. They’re welcome. No one owns them.”
You don’t protect yourself from feeling. You protect yourself from identifying. This is where you can be very simple and very kind. Next time that “victim” sense appears:
Notice the raw sensations - heavy chest, tight throat, buzzing belly, etc.
Notice the story running - “This is so unfair, this is my life falling apart…” Let the story be in the background like a radio on low volume. No need to mute it.
Ask gently - “Besides this story and these sensations…can I find an actual someone this is happening to?”
Dropping ownership does not mean: “This isn’t hard” or “I shouldn’t feel anything.”
It just means “Pain is here, fear is here… but no little ‘me’ is being attacked. There’s just weather.”
So basically, what can be done is to offer kindness instead of fixing - warm blanket, tea, movie, a walk. Not to get rid of the feeling, but to simply allow it to be here. Sadness doesn’t need a cure. It needs room.
Furthermore:

There’s a strong tendency to tough it out and be overly scrupulous in times of difficulty.

The old strategy was: “If I can explain this, I can fix it and I’ll be safe.”
Now that’s seen as not actually working. But the new way (simple allowing) is still unfamiliar and disorienting.
I want to circle back to something subtle that might be happening here.
Yes: stories are stories, labels don’t equal reality, “this is happening to me” is an extra layer.
But there’s still a quiet hope underneath it all that sounds like: “If I see the story clearly enough, the pain will go away.”
That’s totally understandable, and also exactly how bypassing sneaks in. So it makes sense to differentiate between pain and story about pain. These are two different things going on
Raw experience - tight chest, heavy belly, aching heart, lump in throat, tears, exhaustion.
Story about the experience - “I shouldn’t feel this.” “If I were really clear, this wouldn’t hurt.”
“I need to fix / process / heal this properly.”
Seeing the story doesn’t mean the pain disappears. It means the pain is finally allowed to be pain — without the extra layer of “This shouldn’t be here.”
Dropping the story is not anaesthesia. It’s more like taking your hands off the wound so it can heal properly (by itself)
True freedom is when everything is allowed without resistance. If pain and sadness are here – they are here until they are not.
You can even test it in the moment…
Let the sensation be exactly as it is for 30 seconds. No improving, no analysing, no trying to understand. Notice the thoughts that say: “This is bad.” “This means X about me / my future.”
And then ask, very simply… Without those thoughts, does the sensation still need to go away?
Often it’s intense… but not actually a problem. It’s just energy.

The story is not the enemy. You don’t need to suppress the story, fix the story, or force yourself to ignore it. The important bit is just seeing - “This is a story about pain, added on top of pain, trying to control pain.”
The healing isn’t in the story. The healing is in letting everything be here — story and sensation — without turning it into proof of something wrong with “me”.
From there, surprisingly simple next steps can show up by themselves: rest, tea, friend, boundary, asking for help. This happens not because you “fixed your trauma correctly”, but because the system relaxes enough to do the next kind thing.

So maybe next time that heavy wave comes, you could play with this question:
Am I trying to get rid of this pain by working on the story? OR am I letting this pain be exactly as it is, while seeing the story as just another passing cloud?
Nothing needs to be forced. Just gently noticed. Like the weather
I hope this brings clarity!
Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

Very thought provoking, thank you.

There's something that started to be seen through when you talked about how stories are like the icons on a desktop and shouldn't be mistaken for an actual mailbox. That seemed so similar to what was so clearly seen recently about the difference between eating the chocolate and imagining eating the chocolate, or the difference between when some sensations flood the nervous system with clarity on their own volition and are released and when the mind goes digging for emotions to release. There seems to be a continuation of that seeing here.

Seeing through story (2) does not mean stories stop. It just means (3) — the owner — is seen as imagined. You don’t need to kill the story. Just keep gently checking... In this moment, where exactly is the “me” this is happening to?

This one is a bit funny. I remember when we talked about this with the seer/seeing/the seen and feeling so intensely frustrated by the question and then suddenly the answer was obvious. I suppose this is the path - infuriating questions that make no sense followed by answers so obvious it’s unclear how it was misunderstood in the first place.

This answer is really clear in the visual sense and can be clear but isn’t automatic for sensation/story.

With seeing, there is a feeling that it’s happening in kind of a weird nowhere-place. It doesn’t have a location. With sensations and stories, the location is the chest, the belly, or the throat, usually. They move and flicker, and the mind makes a picture of a body and imagines what the sensations look like on the body. There’s still an experience of the mind looking down on the sensations - a kind of duality, I guess - whereas with seeing, it just happens and the mind isn’t looking at the eyes seeing. There’s a distance here that hasn’t yet collapsed, and a subject (me) and an object (sensations).

So the practice now isn’t to kill the story. It’s to keep gently looking... Where exactly is the one this is happening to?

I’m starting to think this is ALWAYS the question. Who is this happening to? This story, this sensation, this sound… where is the identification? Where is the protagonist, the body-owner, the ear-haver?

Stories are trickier and the assumption seems bigger. With sounds or visual sensation, it can collapse easily into just the sound, just the sight. With stories, there are layers of assumption and beliefs about my value, my responsibilities, how I have to face the world, what it means to be a good person. There is a lot of weight in these beliefs.

Or maybe that’s a story too. Maybe events are shifting and unfolding and completely predictable responses to those events are also unfolding, and the sensations of the responses are felt in the bodies involved and no one can ever do anything besides what they’re doing and believing we have to be good or responsible or try harder is just a way of diverting from what’s actually here.

Or maybe it’s both at the same time.

You can also inquire into to whom this confusion of how to deal with stories belongs? Who is charge of stories - letting them be or getting rid of them?

That paradox comes up again… whose job is it to see through the stories (or not)? Who even can? It’s just unwinding and clarifying in this weird nowhere-place of experience. The struggle isn’t real.The confusion isn’t real. It’s just… whatever this is.

What is the simple fact here?
“He has X diagnosis.” “Today he did that.” “We don’t know exactly how fast this will progress.”
What is the story I’m adding?
“This means the future will be X.” “This means I am trapped / doomed / alone.” “This proves I will never be okay.”
Where is the ‘me’ all this is happening to?
In actual experience, is there anything more than: sensations in the body, images and words in the mind, the sight of your husband moving, speaking, forgetting, etc.

Yeah, those are the actual facts.

The temptation is to look at him and think that this isn’t such a big deal. His symptoms - at this point - are things that could happen to anyone. He seems chronically a little bit drunk (he’s not). And I ignore or minimize what I see.

A common example is us going out somewhere and him getting a bit excited and overwhelmed and saying some weird, incorrect, or inappropriate stuff. I find I get uncomfortable with things like this. (At this point, only family and close friends know his diagnosis). So maybe the DE is hearing what he’s saying and feeling the body sensations as a response, but the story might be “he offended them” or “people think he’s an idiot” or “they’re judging me for being with him” or something like that. A more abstract layer of stories is “he’s changing so fast” or “I can’t depend on him in social situations anymore.” The minimizing is actually just another story that says “it’s not such a big deal” or “no one noticed.”

So the question is “who can’t depend on him anymore” and “who is creating a story minimizing the impact of this disease.” Or, who is the victim of this? Who is attempting to hide from this? There’s a sensation of fast moving energy. There are thoughts and images of myself in the past and the future.

I know that’s all thoughts, and there’s just direct experience, and I can see that. But it feels harder to cut through all of that at times and harder to see that it’s just experience.

But there’s still a quiet hope underneath it all that sounds like: “If I see the story clearly enough, the pain will go away.”

Yes, this, 100% and it’s not that quiet.

And it’s a little bit true, right? I’ve had those glimpses where the experience of sadness or anger or fear felt deeply impersonal and just… didn’t matter. They didn’t affect anything and they weren’t heavy. They carried no meaning and existed just as sensations that weren’t even unpleasant.

I’m curious if it’s possible to live in that space, or if that’s a space that becomes more available as seeing clarifies and stabilizes, or if I’m there already and there’s just a really convincing story on top that I haven’t realized is just a story.

Let the sensation be exactly as it is for 30 seconds. No improving, no analysing, no trying to understand. Notice the thoughts that say: “This is bad.” “This means X about me / my future.”
And then ask, very simply… Without those thoughts, does the sensation still need to go away?

It’s wild how strong the belief is that we need to push away feelings because they’re unbearable. In reality, they’re subtle and gentle. The strength of thoughts is kind of terrifying, actually.

Under the thoughts there is love, compassion, peace, and comfort. They’re all tinged with sadness, but they’re not unbearable at all.

Am I trying to get rid of this pain by working on the story? OR am I letting this pain be exactly as it is, while seeing the story as just another passing cloud?

Uhhh, the first one, definitely. (I can see the error of my ways).

Is it stories that you are describing as icons on a desktop? Useful symbols for explaining things, but not an actual part of DE? Allow them, as a lens to look through when it’s useful, but moment to moment, drop the sense of self that is starring in the story, and see through the conviction that the story is really “true”?

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie

Very thought provoking, thank you.

I would have prefered "very looking provoking" :))

You’re really seeing something important now — that the whole structure of “story → meaning → me” is loosening, and what’s left is simply experience, as it is. And yes, that loosening can feel like withdrawal, because the mind has spent decades depending on story as its orientation device. When that orientation dissolves, it feels like freefall — but only to the mind that used story as its ground. The subject/object thing is quietly cracking. Nice.
And of course the mind’s like: “okay but… emotionally it still feels like it’s happening to me!” — which is exactly the edge you’re on now.
Let’s look even more simply:
Who is this happening to? (…again 😅)
You’re absolutely right: this is the question, over and over:

I’m starting to think this is ALWAYS the question.

Exactly, because every time sadness, or anxiety, or a story about husband, future, responsibility, being a “good person” appears … the mind automatically inserts an extra line: “This is happening to me.”
And you’re already starting to see:

With seeing, there is a feeling that it’s happening in kind of a weird nowhere-place. It doesn’t have a location. With sensations and stories, the location is the chest, the belly, or the throat, usually. They move and flicker, and the mind makes a picture of a body and imagines what the sensations look like on the body. There’s still an experience of the mind looking down on the sensations - a kind of duality, I guess - whereas with seeing, it just happens and the mind isn’t looking at the eyes seeing. There’s a distance here that hasn’t yet collapsed, and a subject (me) and an object (sensations).

So try this very simply, when it’s happening… Sensation shows up (tight chest, belly, throat, whatever). Thought/story starts: “this is about X, this means Y.” So look:
Where exactly is the one this is happening to? Where is the observation point? Where is above where is below? Where are the eyes and chest without the mental body map? What is the distance made of?
Can I find her/Lanie/observer outside of these thoughts + sensations?
Is there anything here besides: sensation + thought saying “me”?
Just do it as a quick reality check. Sometimes the answer will feel like: “ugh, I still feel like a me.”
Fine. Then that’s what’s here: “feeling like a me” — also just another passing weather pattern.
And furthermore:

With stories, there are layers of assumption and beliefs about my value, my responsibilities, how I have to face the world, what it means to be a good person. There is a lot of weight in these beliefs.

Yeah. These beliefs still stem from the identification with/as sensations, thoughts, colours…So it makes sense to check where this “I” is, that has responsibilities, and qualities, and values. Making the difference between language/icons and reality sorts this out eventually. What is needed is simple looking. But let’s explore the icons a bit further…

Is it stories that you are describing as icons on a desktop? Useful symbols for explaining things, but not an actual part of DE? Allow them, as a lens to look through when it’s useful, but moment to moment, drop the sense of self that is starring in the story, and see through the conviction that the story is really ‘true’?

Yes. Stories = icons.
They appear in DE (as thoughts/images/sounds) — but what they are “about” is not DE.
Use them when helpful (like opening a document), and when they’re just looping doom-popups, you don’t have to click them.
Imagine you're standing at a crosswalk. A car is coming toward you. In direct experience, there is no “car” (just moving shapes and colours), there is no “body.” (just sensations — tension, readiness, pressure in the legs – and colours), there is no “danger” (just energy, colour, movement). All of that is true in DE.
And yet… you jump out of the way.
Why?
Because the icon “car → danger → move!” is a useful functional symbol within the flow. You don’t need a “self” to operate it; the whole system responds automatically.
The icon isn’t true in the way the mind imagines, but ignoring it wouldn’t be a virtue either. This is how stories work. These icons aren’t the “real” thing — they’re functional shortcuts, like desktop icons. The mailbox icon is not a mailbox, and the car is not a car, but they function.

Did someone decide? Is anything doing it?
Is there “reaction,” “cause,” “effect”?
Or is it simply: this → then this → then this…
One seamless flow with no parts. There is just: appearance, appearance, appearance. It’s all a seamless flow (including the icons). Icons appear because thinking appears. The mind arranges experience into categories (“cars”, “husband,” “memory,” “sadness,” “future”) — not because a “self” is doing anything, but because this is simply how this flow presents. When icons are taken as real, they feel heavy. When icons are seen as icons, they can still show up — but without creating a centre, a controller, or a victim. They move the way wind moves leaves: naturally, without a thinker, without a plan.
The point is not to get rid of icons. The point is to stop confusing icons for actuality. They’re simply not the literal reality they talk about. And their “usefulness” is just another natural expression of the flow — not something that needs a manager.

So let’s apply this to “husband”

So the question is “who can’t depend on him anymore” and “who is creating a story minimizing the impact of this disease.” Or, who is the victim of this? Who is attempting to hide from this? There’s a sensation of fast moving energy. There are thoughts and images of myself in the past and the future.
I know that’s all thoughts, and there’s just direct experience, and I can see that. But it feels harder to cut through all of that at times and harder to see that it’s just experience.

This is tender terrain, and your honesty with it is beautiful. Stories represent something, but they are not the thing. And the same is true for the internal story “my husband is changing,” or “they think I look bad,” or “this is happening to me.”
These aren’t literal objects in the world — they’re icons the mind uses to summarize a complex field of sensations, perceptions, and relational patterns. But icons can be useful, even when you know they’re not real.
There is the simple fact (the car analogy again): he said X, he forgot Y, his behaviour is changing. There are stories of grief, fear, anger — they’re natural energetic responses to that – they function as readiness to act. None of that needs to be denied. These stories still appear — just like the car icon appears when colours move fast toward you. They are functional symbols within the flow of living.
And then there’s the story-over-layer: “this means I’ll be alone”, “this means life will get worse”, “this shouldn’t be happening”, “I can’t depend on him anymore”, “I am the one suffering this”. This is where the suffering is and it is absolutely optional.
Check!
Do any of them contain a real “me” who is being acted upon? So the question remains gentle and simple:
Where is the “one” this is happening to? Not rhetorically — literally, in DE.
When the story drops, is there anything left but sensation + colour + sound + movement?
You don’t have to choose between “this is all nothing, it’s fine” (denial), and “this is terrible, and it’s happening to ME” (victim story). There is another option …Let the sensations + the simple facts be fully here and see the rest as story. They are not wrong, not evil — just story. Weather.
You’re allowed to cry, to shake, to feel heartbreak — without needing to wrap it in “what this means about my life forever”. So when you notice the mind go into interpretation, you can gently ask:
What is actually happening right now?
What part is undeniable (sound, sight, sensation)?
What part is a prediction / judgement / meaning?
And then:
Can this sensation be here even if the story drops?
None of it belongs to anyone. None of it refers to the past or the future. None of it needs solving.
And as you’ve seen, when the story tries to reattach —“this is because of him”, “this shouldn’t be happening”, “I must understand this”— the system tightens, because it’s trying to build a platform out of icons.

You said it quite beautifully:

Under the thoughts there is love, compassion, peace, and comfort.

Yes. The “weather” settles. The sky remains. No one owns the weather. And no one benefits from the "good" weather

“If I see the story clearly enough, the pain will go away.”

Yes, this, 100% and it’s not that quiet.

Yup 🙃The oldest trick in the book:
“I’ll do this spiritual stuff… so that I never have to feel pain again.”
But the “unbearable” part comes mostly from the story about the feeling, not the feeling itself.
So instead of: “If I see this clearly enough, it will go away”
you can play with:
“Can this be fully allowed, even if it never goes away?”
And then check, in that moment, without the thought “this is bad / wrong / too much”, is the sensation still a problem? Or is it just… intense, alive, moving?

You could ask:
If a story appears and is seen as just an icon, does anything need to be done with it?
And if it disappears, was anything truly lost?
Before believing it or rejecting it:
Is this an icon — or is this reality?
And even more simply:
What is it, without the label?

You’re doing beautifully with this, even when it feels messy and raw.
The fact that you’re seeing the self-improvement addiction, the lunging at stories, the “if I get this right it’ll save me” pattern — that’s already the unwind happening (no manager, self-organised unwinding of stories).
Keep letting everything show up. Keep checking who it’s supposedly happening to.
And keep remembering: stories are allowed — they just don’t get to be the boss anymore.
Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

Yes, you are always "looking provoking." That's what i meant to say. :)

I've been noticing how much longer these take me than when we first started - it feels like much more nuanced territory.

Also, just proofread this quickly and am struck by how often you ask a thought provoking question, then I go off and think about it for a while, and then answer something more or less unrelated to the question. If this was a test, I’d fail. Perhaps that’s how this all works - there’s looking, seeing something weird, an attempt at explaining, and it ends up not seeming very connected to the thing you were told to look for.

And of course the mind’s like: “okay but… emotionally it still feels like it’s happening to me!” — which is exactly the edge you’re on now.
Let’s look even more simply:
Who is this happening to?

No one. The sense of ownership seems to be weakening, for stories, sensations, and the sense of awareness. There’s still a bit of an assumption, but it’s like a ghost., Whenever I try to pin it down in the body it disappears.

Where exactly is the one this is happening to? Where is the observation point? Where is above where is below? Where are the eyes and chest without the mental body map? What is the distance made of?
Can I find her/Lanie/observer outside of these thoughts + sensations?
Is there anything here besides: sensation + thought saying “me”?

I had an experience this morning that the self was located in the chest. There was a sensation that announced itself as being me. And as I looked at it and tried to get a better sense of its dimensions and solidity, it slithered away and reappeared behind the eyes, with an announcement that actually, the self lives in the head and it had been here all along. The mind’s ability to produce a convincing illusion is… not great, at this point. How can there be a permanent sense of self if it doesn’t even have a consistent location?

Imagine you're standing at a crosswalk. A car is coming toward you. In direct experience, there is no “car” (just moving shapes and colours), there is no “body.” (just sensations — tension, readiness, pressure in the legs – and colours), there is no “danger” (just energy, colour, movement). All of that is true in DE.
And yet… you jump out of the way.
Why?

This reminds me of the instincts of an animal (who I imagine to be no-self naturally, or at least most of them. I think there might be exceptions). We don’t need a self to move towards pleasure and away from pain and we have automatic instincts that move the body away from danger for us. With a car, there isn’t a choice or deliberation - if the body is able, it will move to safety.

We see such behaviours as love, loyalty, grief, bigotry, and deceit amongst animals. A self is not necessary for this, but some degree of story is.

Animals spend most of their time in DE, and a little bit of time in story. When someone dies, there is grief. I don’t think that (most) animals would consider themselves the victims of the situation - they would experience the loss more in DE. They would lose the one that their nervous system coregulated with (DE) and their routine and expectations would change (story) and that would have an additional nervous system effect (DE). The extent to which their nervous systems were in sync would dictate the impact of the grief.

Did someone decide? Is anything doing it?
Is there “reaction,” “cause,” “effect”?
Or is it simply: this → then this → then this…

In DE, it’s just one thing after another. There are icons that say cause/effect or reaction but they’re not personal.

Do any of them contain a real “me” who is being acted upon? So the question remains gentle and simple:
Where is the “one” this is happening to? Not rhetorically — literally, in DE.
When the story drops, is there anything left but sensation + colour + sound + movement?

It feels a bit like watching a play and seeing the story unfold on the stage and feeling a strong sense of empathy for the character. I know I’m not her, but her experiences unfold with such clarity that it’s impossible to not feel sad when she’s sad, or afraid when she is afraid. There's a sense of un-personalization - the range of emotions is still here but the claiming of them as “mine” isn’t, even though I can experience them along with the character.

Perhaps the question now is who is watching the play and sees all this? The play feels to me like the direct experience and the first layer of story. I think there’s a danger in this metaphor of hugging tighter to the observer role and the metaphor falls apart. There is no observer; scenes just unfold.

What is actually happening right now?
What part is undeniable (sound, sight, sensation)?
What part is a prediction / judgement / meaning?
And then:
Can this sensation be here even if the story drops?

Undeniable: the chair, the light, some tightness in my throat and chest
Added meaning: I need the sun badly. I feel sad. I’m vulnerable.

Yes, the sensation can be here if the story drops but it’s not automatically dropping when noticing it’s a story.

“Can this be fully allowed, even if it never goes away?”
And then check, in that moment, without the thought “this is bad / wrong / too much”, is the sensation still a problem? Or is it just… intense, alive, moving?

Yeah…. I have noticed that the feelings of really intense grief are… not that bad, actually. There’s a peacefulness to surrendering to it and something quite compassionate in the centre of it that feels safe and warm.

And there is movement to it. Grief feels a bit like a brick, but sensations like anger or anxiety seem to flow and shift when the focus is on the sensation, not the stories. They wax and wane. Grief seems to have a different pattern in my experience - it is very,very present, and then, after a time, it seems to curl up and go to sleep and doesn’t wake up for months at a time.

Fully allowing it, even if it never goes away, is hard. On one hand, I have no other choice. On the other hand, the prospect of having this as it is now, forever, brings up strong resistance and tension in the body and victim stories. I think there might be some relief in really, really accepting it - a lot of the resistance is around fighting the feelings - but I definitely struggle with a real acceptance. There are transactional thoughts here - stay here for now, and later you’ll be free.

If a story appears and is seen as just an icon, does anything need to be done with it?
And if it disappears, was anything truly lost?
Before believing it or rejecting it:
Is this an icon — or is this reality?
And even more simply:
What is it, without the label?

I think it depends on the size of the icon. Small icons are fine.

I think with my husband, the icon of neurological disease and the stories that go along with that are certainly realities. I feel like I’m back to square one here, where focusing on the DE feels like denial or bypassing. Perhaps a good way of looking at it is like a play, where it is happening to characters on a stage and there are experiences and sensations as a result. With no-self, this is just unfolding. There is the DE, there is the stories, and they are both wax in the lamp of unfolding.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie

Perhaps that’s how this all works - there’s looking, seeing something weird, an attempt at explaining, and it ends up not seeming very connected to the thing you were told to look for

Yes — this is how it normally goes. Looking → something odd is seen → the mind scrambles to explain → and the explanation doesn’t quite match what the looking was pointing to.
That mismatch is actually a sign that the seeing is happening prior to the mind’s ability to interpret it.
The mind is always late to the party — it tries to reverse-engineer an insight that didn’t come from thinking in the first place. So of course the explanation feels slightly off, or disconnected from the original pointer. That’s not failure. That’s the mind trying to narrate what it never produced. The looking is what matters. The commentary after is just weather.

Whenever I try to pin it down in the body it disappears.

Yes! You’re seeing the mechanics in real time. So check…
Where is the observation point located — without using the mental body map?
Is the “chest” anything more than sensation + an image + a label?
Is “behind the eyes” anything more than sensation + an image + a label?
When the map is dropped, what remains?
Just experience happening — not to anyone.

Perhaps the question now is who is watching the play and sees all this? The play feels to me like the direct experience and the first layer of story. I think there’s a danger in this metaphor of hugging tighter to the observer role and the metaphor falls apart. There is no observer; scenes just unfold.

The danger, as you pointed out, is that the mind sneaks in and says: “Ah yes, I am the one watching the play unfold.”
But where is that watcher?
When you look - there is no distance, no vantage point, no container, no edge, no owner of sensations. There is just scene after scene, flowing.
The “watcher” dissolves the same way the “doer” did. It was only ever a label layered onto experience.

I feel like I’m back to square one here, where focusing on the DE feels like denial or bypassing.

Let’s be very clear here …Seeing through story is not denial.
Denial says: “Nothing is wrong.”
Seeing says: “These are the simple facts… and everything else added on top is commentary.”
Undeniable in DE: seeing changes in behaviour, feeling contraction, grief, tenderness in your body
Added by story: “This shouldn’t be happening.”; “I’m going to be alone.”; “I can’t depend on him anymore.” ; “My future is ruined.”
The facts remain as part of the flow. The suffering comes from the added meaning.
You’re not cutting off the truth of the situation. You’re cutting off the illusion of a self being victimised by it. And yes — it is absolutely possible to face the full emotional reality without adding a self to the center of the story.
That is not bypassing. That is clarity.

I think with my husband, the icon of neurological disease and the stories that go along with that are certainly realities.

Here’s the important subtlety: Icons can be “useful” without being “ultimate.”
Your nervous system uses the icon “danger,” “husband,” “illness,” “help him,” “adjusting plans,” “grief,” just like the mind uses the icon “car coming toward me.”
The colours and sensations don’t literally contain a “car,” but the icon is functional — it lets the organism adjust.
Same here. You don’t have to deny the icon. You just stop mistaking it for a solid, separate reality.
The icon is part of the lava lamp. It is flow. Not fact. Not a self.

Fully allowing it, even if it never goes away, is hard. On one hand, I have no other choice. On the other hand, the prospect of having this as it is now, forever, brings up strong resistance and tension in the body and victim stories.

This is the heart of the inquiry. When the mind starts spinning victim stories, ask, literally:
Where is the “me” this is happening to?
Can it be located in DE?
Is it anywhere other than in thought?
The moment the label drops, what's left – sensations?
Which one of them says victimhood? None of these require a self. None of these prove a self.

I think there might be some relief in really, really accepting it - a lot of the resistance is around fighting the feelings - but I definitely struggle with a real acceptance.

You’ve already tasted it:

There’s a peacefulness to surrendering to it and something quite compassionate in the centre of it that feels safe and warm.

Yes. This becomes more and more available, not by striving, but by dropping the resistance to whatever is here. The “personal owner” of grief dissolves first. The intensity of grief dissolves later — or doesn’t matter. Feelings don’t need to go away. Ownership goes away.

There are transactional thoughts here - stay here for now, and later you’ll be free.

Of course mind wants to fix the feeling. It’s spent a lifetime believing:
“Understanding = control = safety.”
But your own seeing has already shown you what’s deeper - love, compassion, peace, comfort.
That is not a state. It is the natural condition of experience when story loses its grip.

Every time a big story appears — especially around your husband — ask:
Is this an icon? Or is this reality? What is the raw, undeniable DE right now?
What is a fact and what is a story?
See that the victim stories are optional…

Lanie, you are not “back at square one.”
You are walking into the most tender, courageous part of the path — the part where the self can no longer take ownership of pain, but pain still arises. This is where the deepest clarity grows.
Keep looking softly.

I’m going away for a week with little to no reception – Kgalagadi National Park. I’m leaving on Monday (to Sunday) and if you reply before Sunday I can reply one more time, otherwise I will reply when I come back. Use the time to look into the victim stories with tenderness, love and compassion.

Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie

I'm back so we can resume our looking together :)
How's life been?

Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

Welcome back!! Kgalagadi National Park sounds amazing!! What animals did you see? I’d imagine South Africa has loads of animals I’ve never even heard of. That sounds very cool. Do you camp out there? That sounds dangerous, but I’m basing that off Planet Earth documentaries and I’m not sure how that would relate to your experience…

Where is the observation point located — without using the mental body map?
Is the “chest” anything more than sensation + an image + a label?
Is “behind the eyes” anything more than sensation + an image + a label?
When the map is dropped, what remains?

Yes, “chest” or “behind the eyes” is just sensation + mental image + label. Without the map, sensations and any sensory information is just appearing in the void where all experience occurs. Their default appearance is like an object - like a thing I’m watching, but when I stop to look more carefully at who is watching, the watcher flickers and disappears for a short time and it’s just flow, and I am an object in the flow.

The body map is really hard to drop though! It’s actually easier to drop the sense of an observer than it is to drop the mental image of a body.

But where is that watcher?

This question came back big for me this week, initially in a really confusing way and then in a better way.

It was so helpful for me when I learned to meditate and really understood that I am not my thoughts/feelings and learned to stand back from them and be the container for them. I got really quite confused when seeing through being a container - a watcher - of the thoughts / feelings again; it felt like a regression and like I’d lost the ability to let things be.

I think understanding is coming a bit more clearly now. It’s a letting go, and letting it happen, rather than having it happen to me. I’m increasingly often experiencing something coming up and nothing inside me reacts. Nothing tries to grab it, fix it, avoid it, contain it, or even observe it. It just does its thing, and then stops doing its thing.

Icons can be “useful” without being “ultimate.”
Your nervous system uses the icon “danger,” “husband,” “illness,” “help him,” “adjusting plans,” “grief,” just like the mind uses the icon “car coming toward me.”

This really resonates strongly and brings clarity. It’s not denial or ignoring. It’s also not living in the story and looking out at all the cars that could potentially hit me.

I think the message I’m getting is to stay in DE unless a story comes up that needs attention. Is that the short answer to these questions?

Where is the “me” this is happening to?
Can it be located in DE?
Is it anywhere other than in thought?
The moment the label drops, what's left – sensations?
Which one of them says victimhood?

I had an interesting looking experience related to this. I was feeling a sense of shame and a sense of wanting to fix myself, and so asked the question of “who” - who is ashamed of whom? Who wants to fix whom? (I don’t think it’s a coincidence that these types of thoughts are so sticky - there are two places where I can identify with self).

I was curious to notice how much identity is quite secretly wrapped up in the one who is judging the self. There’s a very positive sensation associated with this role, and there are beliefs that I know what is right, I have great ideals and values, it is possible to live up to them, and I can make sure it happens. There was quite a lot of strongly positive sensations in the chest associated with this identity.

Obviously, these are thoughts and not true and don’t require a self in any way to come up with a set of ideal behaviours. The suffering comes from the sense of self who identifies with one who failed to live up to the ideals, but the energy and drive is from believing in the one who has the ideals in the first place. That was interesting to see, and really helped loosen a lot of the feelings of failure and of not being good enough. The energy and volume on that has turned down a lot.

And back to your question - a sensation can never say victim (or perpetrator). Those are thoughts. There is no me this is happening to, but this is still happening. And it just is.

Is this an icon? Or is this reality? What is the raw, undeniable DE right now?
What is a fact and what is a story?

The facts / stories change dramatically. When I get stuck in a depressive episode, which is usually about twice a year, the stories are dire. He can’t work anymore, he can’t wash dishes, he can’t safely cook, he doesn’t understand numbers, he needs supervision, we have to move to a more suitable apartment for a disabled person. And then when the depression shifts, the stories shift too and don’t have the same impact. If they’re true they’re less obviously true, and there’s less urgency to act.

This is a sidenote, and an attempt at explaining the territory that I currently find myself in. The other day - admittedly after smoking a bunch of weed - I spent a lot of time looking for the self. I saw a vision of a person dying and saw clearly their senses shutting down, the electrical circuitry in their brain slowing and then stopping, and synapses stop firing. It seemed really clear to me that the mind did not power down separately from the brain because there was no mind. Awareness didn’t shift off because there was no awareness. It seemed obvious.

I shifted that awareness to myself and asked if awareness was the same or different from thought. It slowly clarified that awareness was actually really just a thought. Then it felt really, really undeniable that there was no self here. It was really clear that this is just a character appearing in a flow and that there is nothing to do and nothing to fear. Everything is only experience. The mind, the self, awareness - these are just illusions. It feels like the whole mind-structure is reorganizing itself after realizing it was established to take care of something that doesn’t exist. The lack of self was undeniable, for a few minutes.

But that clear seeing always fades. It’s like I’m looking at a picture of a jungle and I'm told there is a jaguar hiding somewhere in the picture. I look, study every inch of the picture, and eventually find the jaguar. Then I’m shown another picture or a different part of the jungle and again asked to find the jaguar. Slowly, laboriously, I can find it again, And again. And again. I might even become very skilled at finding jaguars and increase my speed over time, but the jaguar is always hidden. Even if I close my eyes for a few minutes and let myself get distracted, I can lose the jaguar, and then the jaguar becomes a concept, a belief in my thoughts and memories and isn’t part of DE.

Does the jaguar ever become obvious and accessible?

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie

What animals did you see? I’d imagine South Africa has loads of animals I’ve never even heard of. That sounds very cool. Do you camp out there? That sounds dangerous, but I’m basing that off Planet Earth documentaries and I’m not sure how that would relate to your experience…

Yes we had a wonderful time in the wild. We saw lots of animals and some new to me. There were lots of lions, leopards, and raptors. You can see the cause and effect (dependent origination) in action – all the abundance due to some rain – lots of rodents and it goes up the chain. We didn’t camp this time, we had the convenience of a chalet :)

This was a beautiful read — and yes, what you described at the start is exactly how this works:

I think understanding is coming a bit more clearly now. It’s a letting go, and letting it happen, rather than having it happen to me. I’m increasingly often experiencing something coming up and nothing inside me reacts. Nothing tries to grab it, fix it, avoid it, contain it, or even observe it. It just does its thing, and then stops doing its thing.

You look… something odd is seen… the mind tries to explain it… and the explanation often wanders away from the original pointer. It’s what happens when direct seeing comes before the mind can interpret it. The seeing is fresh; the explanation is always late.

The body map is really hard to drop though! It’s actually easier to drop the sense of an observer than it is to drop the mental image of a body.

It doesn’t have to disappear, it just has to be seen through :).
The body-map is sticky because it’s trained into you from infancy, but the “watcher” is far more fragile. When you look for it directly, it dissolves because it has no existence outside of thought saying there is a watcher. Just flow — and sometimes the image of a “me” appearing inside the flow.

It was so helpful for me when I learned to meditate and really understood that I am not my thoughts/feelings and learned to stand back from them and be the container for them. I got really quite confused when seeing through being a container - a watcher - of the thoughts / feelings again; it felt like a regression and like I’d lost the ability to let things be.

You’re not losing the witness-position you learned in meditation — you’re simply seeing that the witness was never a thing. It was a very refined identity. Helpful at first, limiting later.
What you describe now:

Nothing tries to grab it, fix it, avoid it, contain it, or even observe it. It just does its thing, and then stops doing its thing.

is what happens after the witness dissolves.
The container was imaginary. The containing was imaginary. The “standing back” was also imaginary. Only the happening remains.

I think the message I’m getting is to stay in DE unless a story comes up that needs attention. Is that the short answer to these questions?

Close — but here’s the refinement...DE is always here. Stories appear within DE. If a story appears, let it appear — but don’t turn it into a world. You don’t have to stay in DE on purpose. You don’t have to enter DE. You don’t leave DE.
DE is simply what is. Stories come and go as part of DE.
The only difference now is… you’re no longer mistaking the icon for the thing it points to.
So yes — the “short answer” is: Everything is DE. Some of DE shows up as story. Let it, without climbing inside it.

There’s a positive sensation wrapped up in the one who knows wha is right and has ideals.

Yes — that inner judge is one of the subtle last refuges of self. The “good self,” the one with standards, the one who wants to be better, the one who believes it can correct itself.
That one feels noble, powerful, capable — which is why it’s harder to see through than shame or guilt. But it is the same illusion. The “one who failed” and the “one with ideals” are part of the same structure. When the second collapses, the first stops making sense. What you saw here is real unwinding.

And back to your question - a sensation can never say victim (or perpetrator). Those are thoughts. There is no me this is happening to, but this is still happening. And it just is.

Exactly.
Victim = thought.
Perpetrator = thought.
Shame = thought.
Identity = thought.
Sensation never carries biography.
That’s why when you look directly, the entire narrative structure loses weight.

The facts / stories change dramatically. When I get stuck in a depressive episode, which is usually about twice a year, the stories are dire.

When mood shifts, the story shifts. Not because the facts changed, but because the “icon” the mind selects changes. This shows how utterly interpretative the story-layer is. It’s not describing reality — it’s describing state. And seeing this loosens the grip automatically.

The other day - admittedly after smoking a bunch of weed - I spent a lot of time looking for the self. I saw a vision of a person dying and saw clearly their senses shutting down, the electrical circuitry in their brain slowing and then stopping, and synapses stop firing. It seemed really clear to me that the mind did not power down separately from the brain because there was no mind. Awareness didn’t shift off because there was no awareness. It seemed obvious.

Drugs temporarily disrupt the “selfing network” and often expose exactly what you saw:
Mind = activity.
Awareness = activity.
Self = activity.
None of them are substances. None of them are entities that go anywhere. It’s all one movement.
You also saw:

The lack of self was undeniable, for a few minutes.

Here’s the key… Truth doesn’t fade. The recognition fades. Because attention shifts, not because what was seen becomes untrue. The jaguar isn’t disappearing — the looking is.
Which brings us to…

Does the jaguar ever become obvious and accessible?

Yes — but not in the way the mind imagines.
Right now, you’re doing this: looking at the jungle, searching for the jaguar, finding it (insight), looking away, losing the jaguar (identification returns), searching again.
This is how everyone starts. But eventually something flips. You stop looking for the jaguar and start noticing that the entire jungle is jaguar-pattern. There is nowhere it isn’t. Everything you see — sensation, thought, story, grief, tightness, kitchen noises, your husband’s condition, even the depression — all of it is that same jaguar. When the separate-self illusion collapses even further, the question “Where is the jaguar?” loses meaning, because the whole picture is jaguar. There is no background it could hide in. Recognition becomes quieter, simpler, more continuous, less dramatic, less state-dependent. There are no “peak moments, but obviousness. And even when the mind forgets —nothing is lost. The jaguar was never hiding. Only the assumption that “I” am separate makes it seem hidden.
So the answer is: yes — the jaguar becomes obvious. Not as an object to find, but as the impossibility of a separate observer. The jungle is jaguar. The flow is jaguar. You are not looking at it —you’re looking as it. And you’re already very close to this shift being your baseline intuition, not an occasional flash.

Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hey Lanie

It's been a while... Is everything OK?

Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

Sorry for the delay here. I was looking. Not necessarily seeing, but a lot of looking. :)

Super jealous of your trip; that sounds amazing!!! I keep reminding myself that Canada is pretty good and we have animals….But LIONS! Wow! They seem like the best cat by far! Canada has mountain lions and they are gorgeous, hard to spot, and if you do, you might not get to tell anyone else about it. I’d take a bear over a mountain lion any day. (I did see a mountain lion once and it was quite a bit bigger than I had imagined). And one other time I hit a moose in a canoe (I was in the canoe; not the moose). It was the most Canadian thing that has ever happened to anybody.

DE is always here. Stories appear within DE. If a story appears, let it appear — but don’t turn it into a world. You don’t have to stay in DE on purpose. You don’t have to enter DE. You don’t leave DE.

I love this, and something clicked when I read it. I used to see DE as the stream of life, and stories as imagination and completely separate and I kept having to pull my attention to DE.

It’s funny; this really resonated with me a few days ago and I couldn’t explain why, and then I forgot about it. And then I got “sidetracked” by looking at awareness and realized it’s poking at the exact same piece of identity that resonated with your comment. With awareness, I kept looking at what is the difference between a sound and the awareness of a sound? What is the difference between a thought and the awareness of a thought? Essentially… can anything be separate from what is? Can awareness be separate?

You stop looking for the jaguar and start noticing that the entire jungle is jaguar-pattern. There is nowhere it isn’t.

This was so beautifully said and it resonates with what has already been seen - that was exactly the experience. Everything was everywhere and I really wasn’t.

Awareness, again, is like seeing the non-jaguar. It’s the thing keeping the obvious direct experience from being seen. It creates an imaginary line between subject and object and an imaginary sense of “me.” With no awareness this just crumbles.

I can see this happening in small ways a lot. I find myself in flow a lot more. I don’t find myself reminding myself to be present; I just am, and without an obvious sense of awareness of the presence.

Something is unwinding, but there’s certainly more to be seen. Thank you for your patient and insightful help. :)

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie

Hitting a moose with a canoe might indeed be the most Canadian thing I’ve ever read. 😄
And yes… lions are impressive, but leopards are my favourite. Maybe because they are so difficult to spot and lions are the king of the jungle and not too much in need to hide. As with anything else, we want what we can’t get :). But yeah, I’m sure that your wildlife is as interesting and fascinating as ours – nature is amazing

What you described in your looking is really beautiful to read. You saw something very subtle but very important here:

… can anything be separate from what is? Can awareness be separate?

Exactly. This is the place where the last quiet separation often hides. At first the identity moves from “I am the thinker” to “I am the observer.” Then from observer to “I am awareness.” And that one can feel very convincing, because it sounds spacious, peaceful, even spiritual. But when you look closely, just like you did… Is there a sound and then something called awareness of the sound? Or is there simply hearing? Is there a thought and then awareness watching the thought? Or just thinking appearing?
The moment that imaginary line between subject and object relaxes, what remains is exactly what you described:

Everything was everywhere and I really wasn’t.

Not in a nihilistic way, but just as the simple recognition that nothing stands outside of what is happening to observe it. And the funny thing is, once this starts loosening, life begins to look much more like what you described:

I find myself in flow a lot more. I don’t find myself reminding myself to be present; I just am, and without an obvious sense of awareness of the presence.

Yes, because presence doesn’t need an owner and presence isn’t something awareness does. It’s simply what experience already is when nothing stands apart from it.
So what you’re noticing (this sense of things unwinding, the decrease in effort, the natural flow) is exactly how this tends to deepen. It becomes less about dramatic “seeing moments” and more about a quiet obviousness. Nothing special. Just life being life. And even the sense that “there’s more to see” can be allowed to be just another small ripple in the flow. You don’t have to chase the jaguar (leopard) anymore. Sometimes the jungle simply walks by on its own.
For now, maybe just keep noticing something very simple...
When a sound appears, when a thought appears, when a sensation appears … is there actually anything outside of it that is aware of it?
Or is there simply this happening?
No need to answer conceptually, just look when it naturally comes up.
You’re doing beautifully.

Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

It might have happened?? There was a subtle subtle shift (I think) and things might be different, but they also might not be. They are certainly not clearer and it’s beyond possible that this is still just wishful thinking.

I had some weird dreams - I was a snake giving birth to live young. It felt like a creature with its own sense of autonomy just split open my body and left. It was a really weird, odd, dream that stayed with me and the sense of self hasn’t really been here since.

Since then, my thoughts have continued chatting away, but they lack authority. They don’t feel particularly true or important. They are still complaining with the same frequency and about the same topics though.

My husband has been really struggling cognitively at work, which feels devastating. He’s going to have to take a step back from a job he loves in the coming months. This feels awful and stressful and horrible. The intensity of this situation hasn’t changed at all but I really don’t feel like the victim. Genuinely. I still hate everything about this and wish it wasn’t happening, but it’s also just what is. It’s very hard to describe. It’s scary and awful but I no longer feel like I’m dying or that my life is over. This simultaneously doesn’t make anything better but also makes me able to respond to what is instead of being crumpled up because it’s not fair and it’s so hard.

Anyways, if it did happen, there were no fireworks and no parade. No peace and love and no sense of flow. Bad habits persisted (maybe even worse?) and none of the things I was hoping for got sorted, at all.

This is the place where the last quiet separation often hides. At first the identity moves from “I am the thinker” to “I am the observer.” Then from observer to “I am awareness.” And that one can feel very convincing, because it sounds spacious, peaceful, even spiritual. But when you look closely, just like you did… Is there a sound and then something called awareness of the sound? Or is there simply hearing? Is there a thought and then awareness watching the thought? Or just thinking appearing?

Yeah…. I kept looking and trying to discern what awareness actually is. It feels like a window just out of sight, and on the other side of the window is the self, but it’s impossible to actually see the window; it’s always just out of range.

In this metaphor it’s interesting that the window (presumably on a house?) is serving to keep the self safe from the environment, behind a screen of awareness. Themes of fear and safety dominate.

But at the end of the day, this window is an assumption.

When a sound appears, when a thought appears, when a sensation appears … is there actually anything outside of it that is aware of it?
Or is there simply this happening?

It’s just this.

There has been a little shift in the legitimacy of stories. They seem like content to fill a moment of silence in the mind. Previously, I was consciously noting them and trying not to sink into them so much, and now they have the legitimacy of a drunk guy at a party sharing his political opinions. They’re noisy, and a bit annoying. They don’t seem like a real reflection of what is.

I’m still not convinced anything happened. If it did, it was subtle. Its permanence is unlikely. It feels like noticing that maybe there is more than one jaguar, but not that there are only jaguars.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie
What you’re describing is actually a very common way this shift shows up — quiet, subtle, almost easy to miss. There are no fireworks, no cosmic parade, just a kind of reorganization of how things are taken. So the fact that it feels ordinary, even underwhelming, is not a sign that something is wrong.
What caught my attention in what you wrote is this:

The intensity of this situation hasn’t changed at all but I really don’t feel like the victim.

That’s a very significant observation. The circumstances are the same, the emotions are still present, thoughts are still talking, but the sense that this is happening to someone at the center is loosening. That’s exactly the direction this looking points to. Notice also what you said about thoughts:

…they lack authority.

Thoughts don’t need to stop. They can keep chatting exactly as before. The shift isn’t about eliminating them — it’s about seeing that they’re just commentary. Like the drunk guy at the party you mentioned: loud, opinionated, but not actually in charge of anything. And this part:

I still hate everything about this and wish it wasn’t happening, but it’s also just what is.

That’s a very honest description of what clarity often looks like in real life. Clarity doesn’t erase difficult situations or feelings. It just removes the extra layer of “this shouldn’t be happening to me.” What remains is simply responding to what’s here.

In this metaphor it’s interesting that the window (presumably on a house?) is serving to keep the self safe from the environment, behind a screen of awareness. Themes of fear and safety dominate.

That’s a very subtle place where the mind often tries to relocate the self. First it’s the thinker, then the observer, then awareness itself. But as you noticed, when looked at directly, there’s just the happening.

Its permanence is unlikely. It feels like noticing that maybe there is more than one jaguar, but not that there are only jaguars.

Right now it sounds like the mind is still expecting something dramatic like a permanent state, a clear line where everything changes, but this seeing is usually much quieter than that. It’s more like realizing the picture was always two-dimensional rather than three (the illusion). Once seen, it’s simple, but the mind keeps checking because it expected something more impressive. So rather than trying to decide whether it happened or not, just keep looking in the same simple way you’ve been doing. For example, right now:
Is there a separate self anywhere in direct experience?
Is there anything here other than sensations, thoughts, sounds, sights appearing?
Do any of those contain an owner?
No need to force an answer — just check.
Whether this is a clear shift or just another step along the way will become obvious on its own. There’s no need to declare it either way right now. With most, it's a never ending unwinding and reorganisation of the story - beliefs are seen as they come and discarded as not fitiing anymore. This can go on for months and years. However, the initial shift is irreversible, just as we can never go back to believing in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. What is seen clearly (the assumptions like "windows" , separation, etc) can not be unseen. We still use first-person pronouns to describe “ourselves” with the same ease we always had, even if such ideas have no more actual meaning than talking about Santa Claus once we learn “he” doesn’t exist. It’s like finding out Santa Claus is a man in a red suit. Just because he puts the red suit back on does not mean you are fooled. You still know it’s a man in a red suit. The illusion might still be there but now it's known it is an illusion, so it's not a delusion anymore. Just keep looking gently.
And one last small thing to notice this week:
When a thought appears that says “Maybe it happened” or “Maybe it didn’t”, is that thought any different from all the other thoughts that have been chatting away?
Looking forward to hearing what you find.

Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

the mind often tries to relocate the self. First it’s the thinker, then the observer, then awareness itself.

How is awareness different than "what is"? Is it separate from it? It might just be semantics, or it might be a misunderstanding on my part. I've been trying to separate awareness from the flow and I'm not sure that they can be, or maybe the concepts and pointers have gotten cluttered and are no longer useful.

Another thing I've been playing with is trying to find the dividing line in my own mind between who is talking/thinking? Who is hearing it? (How) is awareness separate? The result is a heavy, anxious silence of the mind. It feels like being asked a question in math class, in front of everyone, that you should know the answer to but don't.

Is there a separate self anywhere in direct experience?
Is there anything here other than sensations, thoughts, sounds, sights appearing?
Do any of those contain an owner?

A subtle but useful little shift happened too. There’s a sense of surrender. I was quietly contemplating all the bad things that could happen to my husband and really just trying to prepare/plan/control and then… it just stopped. What is just is and what will be will be and resistance is futile. The experience repeated itself surrounding the behaviour of a difficult family member who I chronically try to change. It happened on its own. No doer.

I certainly can’t find a separate self anywhere. I often feel like one, but that might just be a habit.

When looking at “who is aware” the mind just blanks. It doesn’t know the answer. It hasn’t released the tension and realized no one is aware; it just is. I ask all the time and just sit in that blankness.

When a thought appears that says “Maybe it happened” or “Maybe it didn’t”, is that thought any different from all the other thoughts that have been chatting away?

Hmm. Yeah. Doubt is just thought too. Doubt is just the mind trying to stabilize. Doubting a shift is the mind grasping for something to hold on to.

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

Just making sure you saw my previous message? If you're busy or need some time for life stuff, no worries. :) Hope you are well.