Male from Finland

[graceabounds]

Hello hello!

Glad that you took some time to let this all settle and deepen for a bit.

One particular small example for a change in reaction is when I drop something there's this popular finnish curse word "vittu" that comes sometimes out naturally still. During this process I have had many chuckles correcting right after "tippu" that means fell down. It just felt down, it happens

Nice example. This how it works. The gap will get smaller and smaller and at some point just laughter at what would have been previously seen as the offending event.

I think it was the uneasy lifesituation that started with becoming a father and covid taking the job I had been doing for past 16 years... Before life was too easy and enjoyable to turn interest type of seeking more into hair is on fire type.

It is ironic. Things often have to get uncomfortable enough to really Look under the surface. And the result doesn’t change anything at all about the situation! Perspective shift only.

There hasn't been any moment of walking thru the gate. It might be that it's gateless and it's gatiness is just an illusion:)

Haha yes the ultimate illusion. For some this process culminates in an instant, a pop of recognition, for others it is a gradual process that is only recognized looking back across the expanse. There is no right or wrong way to go. And if there is an ‘I’ that thinks it makes it across and identifies as one who has accomplished something then there has been no crossing at all. ;)

There has been a new interesting study about this: Scientist put subjects in a situation where they were asked to decide either to put + or - between two numbers between 1 and 10 while subjects were in a brain scanner. Eventually scientists were able to tell four seconds before than hand made the click exact time and decision of the subjects.
So the result of this study is the same. These things are an prosess. Later thoughts explain that it was a decision, intention, free will, choice and control that happened.

Love this!

It seems that there isn't progress happening anymore.

So let’s start here:
Who is progressing? What is the result you are expecting?

Is there perhaps helpful exercises that could lead to more present and less living in thoughts?

The thoughts are still going to happen. It is the identification with thoughts that is the issue here. Without identification the answer to question 1 would have been No. Instead the experience (as of now) is that the illusion exists. :)
Can you see the identification trap in this? The illusion existing as the belief that there is an illusion?

Yes we can return to exercises to practice presence and direct experience. Intellectually I believe you have it, so it will be fun to deepen experientially.

Much love,
Becca

[Tuoli]

Hi,

Who is progressing? What is the result you are expecting?

It's not who but how. How is the experiencing happening... When I see reports of people who have gone thru, they describe different type of existence than before. Mine tends to be the same as before with minor exceptions. I had experiences of peace and joy during this prosses but now they are quite rare.

The thoughts are still going to happen. It is the identification with thoughts that is the issue here. Without identification the answer to question 1 would have been No. Instead the experience (as of now) is that the illusion exists. :)
Can you see the identification trap in this? The illusion existing as the belief that there is an illusion?

The illusion is of a same type as with watching immersive movie. During the movie character's life situation is lived and not sitting in a dark but flashy and noisy hall with bunch of people. When the movie ends it is seen as a movie. I have seen thru this character but the life(thoughts and feelings) is so immersive that it's mostly lived as such. That's why I answered to question 1 like I did. It's not identification with thoughts but more of being in thoughts.

[graceabounds]

Hello!

When I see reports of people who have gone thru, they describe different type of existence than before. Mine tends to be the same as before with minor exceptions. I had experiences of peace and joy during this prosses but now they are quite rare.

What is present right now without seeking a specific state?

When the movie ends it is seen as a movie. I have seen thru this character but the life(thoughts and feelings) is so immersive that it's mostly lived as such.

The thoughts and feelings IS the character.
Are you saying the movie is too compelling to interrupt with what is directly experienced?

Let’s go back to what bore fruit earlier in this exploration…
I’d like you to set a series of 6 or more alarms or timers today. Whenever one goes off stop and inquire:
What is here that is not a thought?
Spend 5 or 10 minutes just looking.
Write whatever is noticed from working with this as a practice.

With love,
Becca

[Tuoli]

Hi,

What is present right now without seeking a specific state?

Sights, sounds, sensations, taste, thoughts and memories.

The thoughts and feelings IS the character.

Yes, this observation I was trying to conway with "It's not identification with thoughts but more of being in thoughts."

Are you saying the movie is too compelling to interrupt with what is directly experienced?

No, it's maybe more that it's the way life has been experinced since early childhood. It's the effortless fall to state.

Write whatever is noticed from working with this as a practice.

Watching thoughts has been the go to practice during the past months. For some reason attention slips to thought context quickly. Maybe it worked well earlier as it was a new thing for the monkeymind... this type of excersise is better as focus is not at thoughts but what else is there. There was sights, sounds, sensations, smell and taste. With thoughts absent there were somewhat heightened color and sound sensations felt. Those pleasurable sensations from this excersise before were not.

[graceabounds]

Namaste,

Watching thoughts has been the go to practice during the past months.

What happens if you explore watching the gap in between thoughts rather than the thoughts themselves?

There was sights, sounds, sensations, smell and taste. With thoughts absent there were somewhat heightened color and sound sensations felt. Those pleasurable sensations from this excersise before were not.

Lets pick one sense to start with as an entry point, knowing of course that it is all one experience. Sound.

Start by listening to a particular sound. Strip away the labels: near, far, loud, quiet, the cause of the sound, the visual picture of what makes the sound. Simply hearing the sound. Practice with different sounds throughout the day.

Without thoughts describing the sound what is left?
Is the sound separate from the experience of hearing?
What happens to the sound when it ends?

Also direct experience won’t always be pleasurable. Often just neutral or without any positive/negative charge. Just allowing whatever is without comparing it to a memory thought of a prior experience which no longer is. :)

Much love,
Becca

[Tuoli]

Namaste,

What happens if you explore watching the gap in between thoughts rather than the thoughts themselves?

It's peaceful there. Thoughts don't take attention so easily.

Without thoughts describing the sound what is left?
Is the sound separate from the experience of hearing?
What happens to the sound when it ends?

It's very difficult to answer these questions. Experience of sound is experiencing. It's an experience. It's happening in same no place that all experience is experienced. What happens to experience when it ends? There's a new experience or nothing at all!

[graceabounds]

Namaste,

Beautiful! Wonder-full.

So, this gap between thoughts… this peaceful space…

Is it possible to retain this gap as an underlay while the thoughts come and go?
Put another way, to not attach to the gap as arising or falling (and thus that which appears and disappears) but as the background for all experience?

Play with this, and let me know how it goes.

Love,
Becca

[Tuoli]

Hi Becca,

Just checking in to tell that I'll run with this for a little bit more and will get back after a little while!

[graceabounds]

Great!

[graceabounds]

Just checking in…
Here to continue if supportive.

-Becca

[Tuoli]

Hi Becca, it's been awhile!

Is it possible to retain this gap as an underlay while the thoughts come and go?
Put another way, to not attach to the gap as arising or falling (and thus that which appears and disappears) but as the background for all experience?

It's nice to relax in peaceful oasis in the midst of busy life and mind. With this it comes very clear how almost all suffering in our peaceful western country is derived from thoughts only. However as this was the case in the beginning of this period, - and the answer seemed to be yes, it is not the case anymore. There was attachement and wishing peace and it started to slip away.

There was also busy morning shifts and evenings with kid. Now I'm doing new type of consentration demanding job. These might be affecting the period of the gap or it's something else totally... But at the moment answer is no unfortunately.

[graceabounds]

Hello Esa,

Nice to hear from you.

There was attachement and wishing peace and it started to slip away

Yes, what is being looked for is found only this moment, the comparing to a thought of what has been or to a thought of what is desired that is different from this moment is the root of the suffering you describe.

Would you like to continue daily inquiry? I do feel some momentum is important so just want to get a sense of if this is possible at the moment. If you’d like to settle into the job for a bit first I’ll be here when you are ready!

-Becca.

[Tuoli]

Namaste,

Yes, I have noticed too that the momentum is important to keep and I've been pondering the role of effort, consentration, time, motivation and guidance during this period. Those are up to universe. I'm grateful for the amount of these received sofar. It's huge to think this is something everything is doing!

Time has been in short supply lately with the monkey businesses but it will get better on friday evening...

It's been talking point in buddhism for few millennium the role of sangha and being a layman in waking up. It's probably easier to wake up living as a monk even it's most definitely not needed. It's also easier to develop false sense of enlightenment and spiritual ego living in a monastery! Just some thoughts shared during break before going back to work...🙏

[graceabounds]

It's been talking point in buddhism for few millennium the role of sangha and being a layman in waking up. It's probably easier to wake up living as a monk even it's most definitely not needed. It's also easier to develop false sense of enlightenment and spiritual ego living in a monastery!

Yes this was the prescription in the past. In my own process early on I certainly treated glimpses as precious and had impulses to run off to a mountaintop in order to somehow preserve them. But the shift happened in regular everyday life, as it happens now for many. It was the messiness, the discomfort, the imperfections, the inability to control… that was the path. There is so much available here in every moment.

Time has been in short supply lately with the monkey businesses but it will get better on friday evening...

So… what would you like to explore going into the weekend? What feels ripe to investigate?

[Tuoli]

Hi Becca,

what would you like to explore going into the weekend? What feels ripe to investigate?

All I can think of now are thoughts themselves. Especially when in a stressful situation, I'm submerged in them. There's no space in endless flow of thoughts and related emotions. Looking at them and the gap between them worked for awhile, but then I tend to return to the default mode which is thoughts after another.