Looking for a guide

[Elad]

Good question for you.

Ask many times during the day "how does it feel to be liberated?", see and feel what happens, write what is seen 🙏

Ps. When writing, write what has been seen, not "what you believe to be true". Just report what was observed.

[Elad]

How are things moving Carrie?

[IamaCloud]

How are things moving Carrie?

I’m not sure? In and out of the illusion I suppose. Stuck.

[Elad]

Say more - if you want.

Or write again when you want to share something or ask something.

[Elad]

Christiane Michelberger has written a new book, I thought it might be helpful for you, if you still feel stuck. Warm thoughts from here:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCBXQN82/re ... 216&sr=8-2

[IamaCloud]

Christiane Michelberger has written a new book, I thought it might be helpful for you, if you still feel stuck. Warm thoughts from here:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCBXQN82/re ... 216&sr=8-2

Thank you Elad. I will look at this when I can. I have been sensing the illusion of self dwindling, however, I do not understand the joy or contentment said to be found in awareness. The affect experienced is low, non-energetic. Can we continue working? Do I need to work with someone else? I would like to continue. xx

[Elad]

Hi Carrie! From my side we can surely continue to work together. Do you have a wish to work with someone else? Curious what brought up the idea that you maybe should?

My sense and also what (most) others say is that there is no predicting how it feels as we move towards the shift and shortly in the aftermath of it. It is often a relief, but I believe not always. That said the essence of this work is the letting go of beliefs that create a sense of separation, straining, and confusion, and trying to make reality what it is not. As this clarity deepens, the sense here is it has inherent intimacy, appreciation, peace and kindness.

Tell me more what you are experiencing.

[Elad]

I just reviewed our correspondance. You are really close to see through self it seems. Our work will be to:

- See that expectations about this are only expectations and get in the way.

- See through any residual beliefs in self. Whenever you have a feeling of me the doer or controller or thinker or doer, look at it, is it a real self? What does it consist of in actual experience?

- See through ideas and beliefs about awareness. Awareness is just an abstract word. In reality all you can find is experience itself, without separate awareness relating to it. Can you see that?


Here is Bahyia Sutra for you to play with. See everything through this lens and notice, what is happening in actuality:

In the seen, there is only the seen,
in the heard, there is only the heard,
in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.
Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;
this, Bahiya, is how you should train yourself.
Since, Bahiya, there is for you
in the seen, only the seen,
in the heard, only the heard,
in the sensed, only the sensed,
in the cognized, only the cognized,
and you see that there is no thing here,
you will therefore see that
indeed there is no thing there.
As you see that there is no thing there,
you will see that
you are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that,
nor in any place
between the two.
This alone is the end of suffering.

[IamaCloud]

Hi Carrie! From my side we can surely continue to work together. Do you have a wish to work with someone else? Curious what brought up the idea that you maybe should?

My sense and also what (most) others say is that there is no predicting how it feels as we move towards the shift and shortly in the aftermath of it. It is often a relief, but I believe not always. That said the essence of this work is the letting go of beliefs that create a sense of separation, straining, and confusion, and trying to make reality what it is not. As this clarity deepens, the sense here is it has inherent intimacy, appreciation, peace and kindness.

Tell me more what you are experiencing.

I do not wish to work with someone else. It was more about whether or not you felt I was not 'getting it' or something to that effect.
I feel like there have been experiences where the illusion has dropped. But maybe not the shift in identity. It seems there is the parallel existence of awareness without self and then a sense of being lost in a dream. Lately I have been very low, and I have been trying to bounce back. This sadness has also felt like an opening, where there is no need to entertain expectations and where I can find acceptance into what is. Sometimes there is only awareness, rarely is there happiness. It feels like I am holding onto something though not sure what it is.

[Elad]

Oh I see, no at no point have I had any thoughts or feelings about not wanting to work with you. Happy to continue!

Sorry you rarely experience happiness. Glad you can allow the current state to inspire surrender and letting go. For many of us this process goes well in tandem with shadow work/psychotherapeutic work and wholesome changes on a practical lived level (work, relationships, caring and balanced living, togetherness) in order for happiness to manifest more.

Please read the post I wrote you today after I looked at our thread again. Respond to all the points in it separately.

[IamaCloud]

Oh I see, no at no point have I had any thoughts or feelings about not wanting to work with you. Happy to continue!

Sorry you rarely experience happiness. Glad you can allow the current state to inspire surrender and letting go. For many of us this process goes well in tandem with shadow work/psychotherapeutic work and wholesome changes on a practical lived level (work, relationships, caring and balanced living, togetherness) in order for happiness to manifest more.

Please read the post I wrote you today after I looked at our thread again. Respond to all the points in it separately.

In the seen, there is only the seen,
-Direct experience, the seen before interpretation of the mind
in the heard, there is only the heard,
-Direct experience, sound before interpretation of the mind
in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
-Direct experience, what is felt before interpretation by the mind
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.
-Direct experience of awareness before thought
Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;
-No thing here. No self. Just experience for us all.

[Elad]

"-Direct experience, what is felt before interpretation by the mind
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.
-Direct experience of awareness before thought"


What is felt refers in the sutra to sensations, not to be confused with "emotions" (= sensation plus thought/belief). It does not refer to "awareness experience" as something separate from sensations. And with cognized in the sutra is just meant "thought". Not to be mixed up with awareness as something separate from anything else.

Awareness is a practical word for everyday life, as in "I was not aware you wanted me to buy ice cream". However, in direct inquiry it is not found. Another way is to say that awareness=experience=just this=a concept pointing beyond concepts.

However that can easily made into a belief and take us out of direct experience. Then it is better to return to the most concrete aspects of experience: in the thought only the thought, in the felt only the felt, in the heard only the heard, etc.







"Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;
-No thing here. No self. Just experience for us all."

Right! So, is there any belief in a separate self whatsoever? Any belief in thinker/doer/agent whatsoever? Or is it clear beyond doubt that these are false beliefs?

If there is any doubt, or any persistent sense of being the agent, describe that as clear as possible. Make sure to investigate experience freshly, not relying on established convictions (always in our exchange!).

[IamaCloud]

"-Direct experience, what is felt before interpretation by the mind
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.
-Direct experience of awareness before thought"


What is felt refers in the sutra to sensations, not to be confused with "emotions" (= sensation plus thought/belief). It does not refer to "awareness experience" as something separate from sensations. And with cognized in the sutra is just meant "thought". Not to be mixed up with awareness as something separate from anything else.

Awareness is a practical word for everyday life, as in "I was not aware you wanted me to buy ice cream". However, in direct inquiry it is not found. Another way is to say that awareness=experience=just this=a concept pointing beyond concepts.

However that can easily made into a belief and take us out of direct experience. Then it is better to return to the most concrete aspects of experience: in the thought only the thought, in the felt only the felt, in the heard only the heard, etc.

"Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;
-No thing here. No self. Just experience for us all."

Right! So, is there any belief in a separate self whatsoever? Any belief in thinker/doer/agent whatsoever? Or is it clear beyond doubt that these are false beliefs?

If there is any doubt, or any persistent sense of being the agent, describe that as clear as possible. Make sure to investigate experience freshly, not relying on established convictions (always in our exchange!).

"in the thought only the thought" - I don't get this. I stumbled on it when I was originally responding. Hearing, sensing yes, absolutely and yes not separate from awareness. However cognizing. I am stuck here. Cognizing feels separate than.

I cannot find a self, however something is operating on this concept as I still 'feel' as if there is a separation.

[Elad]

You get confused about "in the thought only the thought" because of your concepts/thoughts about thoughts. You are not paying attention to the nature of thought itself, but rather covering it over with the thought about thought. This is tricky.

Practice some sessions 10-20-30 min of sitting quietly paying attention to thought.

What is a thought really?
What does it consist of?
How long does it last?
Does it appear "inside" something?


As for remnants of self-belief what I'd like you to do for me is a little exercise. The exercise might require some patience. You will need to wait until it seems there is a sense of self or 'I', and when you notice that sense of self arises in a particular moment at some point in the day, try to stay with it at the level it's arisen and ask yourself if there is a belief that you are that &/or that it is you?

If the answer is yes, the second part of the exercise is to look more closely at what this sense of self is made up of.

If the answer is no, make a note of what that sense of self was made up of, and go back to looking and see if you can find any other sense of self that you would answer yes to the question above, and if so then proceed to the second part as above.

Let me know how you go, and what you find.

[IamaCloud]

You get confused about "in the thought only the thought" because of your concepts/thoughts about thoughts. You are not paying attention to the nature of thought itself, but rather covering it over with the thought about thought. This is tricky.

Practice some sessions 10-20-30 min of sitting quietly paying attention to thought.

What is a thought really?
What does it consist of?
How long does it last?
Does it appear "inside" something?


As for remnants of self-belief what I'd like you to do for me is a little exercise. The exercise might require some patience. You will need to wait until it seems there is a sense of self or 'I', and when you notice that sense of self arises in a particular moment at some point in the day, try to stay with it at the level it's arisen and ask yourself if there is a belief that you are that &/or that it is you?

If the answer is yes, the second part of the exercise is to look more closely at what this sense of self is made up of.

If the answer is no, make a note of what that sense of self was made up of, and go back to looking and see if you can find any other sense of self that you would answer yes to the question above, and if so then proceed to the second part as above.

Let me know how you go, and what you find.

I did get confused by the thought about the thoughts. It resonates more now. Thoughts are just brain activity, they come and go. Sometimes there are cycles. Sometimes a random interjection. It seems to appear inside my head.

With the exercise, I will continue to do this.