Looking for 1 on 1

[GotIt]

Which is it? What has been seen for you to say the first paragraph , rather than the second?

I've seen things like there is no being making me walk, raise my arm, etc. but I still feel like there's a being/a "me"ness in this body that does things like make decisions. This "me"ness isn't a specific physical thing like a chair or a tree.

Is the "dont want to let go" anything more than a thought that is believed in?

Probably. The "me"ness feels like it doesn't want to let go of existing (and I know it's probably just a belief of a "me"ness existing, and as I said above, there is no definitive physical thing.).


Re.:

a thought that is believed in?

What happens if I let go?

What is it you dont want to let go of?

I don't want to let go of being in control, e.g. making decisions, etc. You're probably going to say I'm not in control and have never been in control, so then I feel like I don't want to let go of the belief of being in control, and that's just a belief, etc., etc.

What I meant was, in perceiving the monitor, is there any distance, gap, between the monitor , and the perception of it? Is there a monitor "out there", and a you "in here" perceiving it? Or is it that all you have is the perception of a monitor?

There's just me here perceiving the monitor. I don't think there's a distance between the monitor and the perception of it. There is the reading of the phrase, "look at the monitor", and then there's the movement of the body/head/eyes to look at the monitor, and then there's the looking at the monitor/seeing the monitor, and then there's the evaluation of the looking (is there something I'm supposed to see, the trying to look at the monitor in and of itself without looking at the content of the page that's open, etc.). There's just looking at the monitor and seeing it.

[GotIt]

Last night I wanted to eat something. I didn't need it, had already eaten too much junk food and still wanted to eat it. What I was aware of is that I couldn't stop myself from wanting/getting it. It was like I felt like or realized that I couldn't stop myself from eating it anyway, like I wasn't in control of the decision about eating it or not eating it.

[neeeel]

Yes, if we were actually in control, if there was a self there doing everything, then it seems that it would be easy not to eat the extra food. but actually, theres just a bunch of inputs( sensations, thoughts, memories, etc), some processing, and some actions. sometimes, especially when the drives are very primal ( food, sex, etc) the desires and drives will win out over thoughts of "I shouldnt do this" .
So, good noticing. Keep looking, see what else you can find. Look at the thoughts after you at the extra food, too. Look at how they create suffering for you, by saying you shouldnt have done that. Can you stop these thoughts? Are they out of your control too?

[neeeel]

So whats happening? Are you still looking at this?

[GotIt]

Still looking. Have been busy and was out of town yesterday, so haven't been able to respond.

Look at the thoughts after you at the extra food, too. Look at how they create suffering for you, by saying you shouldnt have done that. Can you stop these thoughts? Are they out of your control too?

I don't tend to beat myself up over eating things I shouldn't have, so I don't have those thoughts.

What I've been looking at is watching decisions to see if things are happening before "I" make a decision, e.g. I was thinking about re-positioning my leg on a long bus trip and hadn't decided whether to re-position it or not, and was looking to see if it moved/re-positioned on it's own before I decided to move it (if it moves on it's own without a "me" deciding to move it). I didn't really see much, didn't see it move before I decided yes, I want to re-position it, but am looking at things like that.

Instead of looking to see the sense of self, I'm now looking with the "I don't exist" stuff that you've told me, and looking to watch for things happening without a "me" making them happen (the stuff of, I think I'm in charge, but I'm really not--there's no "me" to be in charge).

[neeeel]

What I've been looking at is watching decisions to see if things are happening before "I" make a decision, e.g. I was thinking about re-positioning my leg on a long bus trip and hadn't decided whether to re-position it or not, and was looking to see if it moved/re-positioned on it's own before I decided to move it (if it moves on it's own without a "me" deciding to move it). I didn't really see much, didn't see it move before I decided yes, I want to re-position it, but am looking at things like that.

It is going to be hard to notice this sort of thing when you are thinking about it, because the thoughts appear to be part of the process of making it move or not. So you sitting and watching your leg waiting for it to move, and deciding whether to reposition it,it might not be apparent that it "moves on its own".

Easier things to see are, you notice your hand going up to scratch your head before youve even thought about doing it. Or, when you are sitting in your chair, noticing that you have shifted position, without thoughts about how you are going to reposition yourself. These sorts of movements happen hundreds of times a day without much thought or noticing going on.

Instead of looking to see the sense of self, I'm now looking with the "I don't exist" stuff that you've told me, and looking to watch for things happening without a "me" making them happen (the stuff of, I think I'm in charge, but I'm really not--there's no "me" to be in charge).

Ok, keep looking at this. You may notice that thoughts come up after an action saying "I did that", which may make things confusing for you.
Thing is, everything is happening without a "me" making it happen. When you walk, are you controlling every muscle in the correct order? When you talk , are you controlling the facial muscles, the vocal chords? And so on.

[GotIt]

Easier things to see are, you notice your hand going up to scratch your head before youve even thought about doing it. Or, when you are sitting in your chair, noticing that you have shifted position, without thoughts about how you are going to reposition yourself. These sorts of movements happen hundreds of times a day without much thought or noticing going on.

Yes, I have seen many things that happen on their own, especially the things where I plan to do something and do something entirely different (go in the kitchen to get a certain drink and come out with an entirely different drink (or not even a drink!).

When you walk, are you controlling every muscle in the correct order? When you talk , are you controlling the facial muscles, the vocal chords? And so on.

I can see the no one controlling it when it's things like moving muscles to walk or talk. It's the making decisions and deciding to do things where I feel like there is a "me" who's in control of it. I keep watching the doing of things to see them happening without a "me" deciding to do them (e.g. get a certain drink when I go in the kitchen).

[neeeel]

Yes, I have seen many things that happen on their own, especially the things where I plan to do something and do something entirely different (go in the kitchen to get a certain drink and come out with an entirely different drink (or not even a drink!).

Good, so keep looking at these things, notice everything you can that seems to happen without a you.

I can see the no one controlling it when it's things like moving muscles to walk or talk. It's the making decisions and deciding to do things where I feel like there is a "me" who's in control of it. I keep watching the doing of things to see them happening without a "me" deciding to do them (e.g. get a certain drink when I go in the kitchen).

Look at the decision making process. How do decisions happen? Is it thoughts about the decision? Are you thought? Can a thought "do" anything?
Look as much as you can throughout the day, at all actions and decisions that happen. What ever it is, cooking, driving, walking, reading, anything.

[GotIt]

Good, so keep looking at these things, notice everything you can that seems to happen without a you.

Dang, just lost what I had written. This fricking body does whatever it wants to do. ;)
Driving home in the pouring rain tonight, I realized I had chocolate in the car, and decided to bring it in the house. Got home and forgot to bring it in the house (go back out in the pouring rain and get it, or do without!).

Look at the decision making process. How do decisions happen? Is it thoughts about the decision? Are you thought? Can a thought "do" anything?
Look as much as you can throughout the day, at all actions and decisions that happen. What ever it is, cooking, driving, walking, reading, anything.

Can a thought "do" anything?

Yes, a thought can have lots of great ideas (like the idea to bring the chocolate in the house!), and then nothing, nothing at all as it all gets forgotten, and all of the decisions don't happen. It seems to me like "I" have to really work to remember to do things that I've decided to do (like bring the chocolate in the house, pick up something at the store, etc.). "I" can't be in control and making decision if when "I" supposedly make decisions this body doesn't carry them out! If there was an "I" there making decisions, then once something was decided it would happen!

I'm trying to look at the decision making process.

[GotIt]

I'll be out of town off and on for the next four days, so if you don't hear from me, it's me, not anything you've done.

Will be looking while I'm gone.

Thanks.

[neeeel]

Dang, just lost what I had written. This fricking body does whatever it wants to do. ;)
Driving home in the pouring rain tonight, I realized I had chocolate in the car, and decided to bring it in the house. Got home and forgot to bring it in the house (go back out in the pouring rain and get it, or do without!).

This is useful to notice. And, its kind of one level of abstraction, or whatever, away from what I actually want you to look at. Driving would be a good example of something to look at. When you are driving, is there a you that is in control of everything, each part of the body? Or is there just an organism, receiving stimuli ( sights, sounds, feedback from the steering wheel, etc) and responding appropriately. There are subtle movements of steering wheel and pedals, reactions to things seen and heard, where is the "you" that is doing any of this?

Yes, a thought can have lots of great ideas (like the idea to bring the chocolate in the house!), and then nothing, nothing at all as it all gets forgotten, and all of the decisions don't happen. It seems to me like "I" have to really work to remember to do things that I've decided to do (like bring the chocolate in the house, pick up something at the store, etc.). "I" can't be in control and making decision if when "I" supposedly make decisions this body doesn't carry them out! If there was an "I" there making decisions, then once something was decided it would happen!

Yes, this is a good way to think of things, that the power of the thought seems to come and go. Sometimes its acted on, sometimes it isnt.

The thing is, "decisions" are being made hundreds of times throughout the day. I just picked up my pen and played with it. I dont remember deciding, "ok, I will pick up my pen, and play with it". Sometimes I will remember the thought that prompted the action eg "I need to go to the shop" followed by going to the shop., and sometimes there seems to be no thought that prompted it.

[GotIt]

When you are driving, is there a you that is in control of everything, each part of the body? Or is there just an organism, receiving stimuli ( sights, sounds, feedback from the steering wheel, etc) and responding appropriately. There are subtle movements of steering wheel and pedals, reactions to things seen and heard, where is the "you" that is doing any of this?

When I'm driving, it happens automatically (This is especially noticed when I go on automatic pilot and drive in the wrong direction, head toward the wrong place, etc.).

I keep plotting and planning to do things, and then often times what "I" planned to do doesn't happen.

The thing is, "decisions" are being made hundreds of times throughout the day. I just picked up my pen and played with it. I dont remember deciding, "ok, I will pick up my pen, and play with it". Sometimes I will remember the thought that prompted the action eg "I need to go to the shop" followed by going to the shop., and sometimes there seems to be no thought that prompted it.

Yes, there are a lot of these kinds of automatic decisions where we aren't aware of having made them and things just happen (picking up the pen and swirling it around). It's the decisions like deciding to go to the shop, that make me feel like there is an "I" making the decision (I decided to go, and I went, etc., etc.).

And, its kind of one level of abstraction, or whatever, away from what I actually want you to look at.

I will try to look for and at the level you want me to look at.

[neeeel]

Yes, there are a lot of these kinds of automatic decisions where we aren't aware of having made them and things just happen (picking up the pen and swirling it around). It's the decisions like deciding to go to the shop, that make me feel like there is an "I" making the decision (I decided to go, and I went, etc., etc.).

Take a look and see if you can see the difference between feeling like "I" making the decision, and stuff happening on automatic. Is it that when it feels like you are making the decision, there are lots of thoughts about the decision. And when its happening on automatic, there are little or no thoughts about the decision/action?

[neeeel]

Yes, there are a lot of these kinds of automatic decisions where we aren't aware of having made them and things just happen (picking up the pen and swirling it around). It's the decisions like deciding to go to the shop, that make me feel like there is an "I" making the decision (I decided to go, and I went, etc., etc.).

Are there thoughts about these automatic decisions, after they have happened? Thoughts claiming "I did that"? Do you see how, in this case at least, the "I" thoughts are referring to nothing real? That there wasnt an I that picked up the pen and swirled it around, it just happened, and then thoughts arise labelling the action with an "I"?

So theres, the reality ("picking up pen and swirling it"), and then theres thoughts about reality( "I am swirling the pen").

[GotIt]

I had a weird experience earlier this week:

Walking to cross the street and a car was turning and as I stepped out into the street, I had this weird connected experience of me just doing things (like crossing the street). I always think I'm right, e.g. when walking across the street, the cars should stop for me, but when driving, those idiots who step out into the street should know better and get out of the way cause I'm coming through.

I can't quiet explain the feeling I had, but it was like an awareness of me just doing things (stepping into the street to cross it) without the "I'm" in charge of deciding to cross the street or something like that.