Letting go

[Anastacia42]

Hi Steph,

I would swear I posted a reply to this.

I'm fine. Have I given you this one about not finding your keys where you're sure you left them?

Explore ‘Sense of Self’

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken.

This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?

You don't have to do this again, but LOOK. What does this point to? [/color]

Let go, as your subject line says.

Loving,

[Padmasukha]

Hi Stacy,
Thanks for your reply. I'm glad to hear you're fine :-)
I've had a busy day today, so will give this some time in the morning.
With love and thanks, Steph xxx

[Padmasukha]

Hi Stacy,

You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys.

This does seem to be where I am with it.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?

It feels like it's 'within'; 'in here'.

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Kind of. It feels like an amorphous cloud of energy in the head and chest.

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

It feels like it does.

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

With all the 'I' and 'mine' thoughts. The sense of self says: Here I am. I am conscious, aware, thinking, looking, doing this exercise. I want this, I don't want that. I always do this, I'd never do that. I'd love to do this, I'd hate to do that. I'm pleased with this, I'm ashamed of that. I feel like this (happy, peaceful, whatever), I don't feel like doing that. And so on and on and on...

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

It feels like it has awareness, consciousness, mood, and a sense of 'knowing'.

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

It feels like it's made of awareness, energy, and a kind of 'me-ness' that's hard to describe, - like a mixture of delight and knowing - in being aware, alive and awake.

What is found?

The same as the last reply.

I answered these questions yesterday, came back to it today and realised I'd answered from thinking!
So now I've changed my answers to what I found when really looking at the felt sense of self. Of what appears when I close my eyes and think 'here I am', and focus on the sense of self that arises. So this is what appears, without any wisdom applied. I'm not 100% sure this is what you are asking for, but I'm interested to see your replies.

With much love and thanks :-) xxx

[Anastacia42]

Self only exists as a content of thought.

Would you describe these feelings as tight? Heavy? Anything like that?

Have we done the lie exercise?

Loving?

[Padmasukha]

Hi Stacy,

Would you describe these feelings as tight? Heavy? Anything like that?

I think I've been confusing self with awareness/mind. Feeling very confused with everything yesterday and today, so will look again tomorrow. If I look whilst in meditation, it's hard to find that illusory 'I', I just find feelings of awareness, peace, aliveness. And if I just read your questions in normal thinking mode I can have spontaneous answers that seem correct, but the 'aha!' moment of some kind of insight is really fleeting, and I can't get back to it to take it deeper.

Have we done the lie exercise?

You asked me to look for sensation in the solar plexus when lying, and I sometimes have a slight sensation there, and sometimes not.
I'll post again tomorrow. Lots of love xxx

[Anastacia42]

Hi Steph

I think I've been confusing self with awareness/mind.

Yes. of course you have.

If I look whilst in meditation, it's hard to find that illusory 'I', I just find feelings of awareness, peace, alivenese.

Yes, of course! That would be because it exists only in thoughts, content of thoughts, stories, aka LIES.

That's why it is important to FEEL when you're lying.

You asked me to look for Sensation in the solar plexus when lying, and I sometimes have a slight sensation there, and sometimes not.

Keep looking. It's very important. Try a "bigger" lie.

Loving,

[Padmasukha]

Hi Stacy,

Keep looking. It's very important. Try a "bigger" lie.

Thanks. I will keep looking at this.
Many thanks again for continuing to help me.
Lots of love xxx

[Padmasukha]

Hi Stacy.

Keep looking. It's very important. Try a "bigger" lie.

I keep doing this, and either I get no sensation, or there's a kind of mild anxiety feeling in my gut in anticipation of lying.
With love and gratitude xxx

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

mild anxiety feeling in my gut in anticipation of lying.

That's a start. but "mild" and "anxiety" are not on the list of Actual Direct Experience. Those are stories & interpretations, not DE.

Remember:


Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)


So, in Direct Experience plus some words about what bodies feel, such as heat/cold, heavy/light, tense/relaxed, expansion/contraction & the like, tell me again what is felt in your gut when you lie.

You've got it. We just need to pare it down to simple, Direct Experience.

Loving,

[Padmasukha]

Hi Stacy,

...tell me again what is felt in your gut when you lie.
You've got it. We just need to pare it down to simple, Direct Experience.

There is sensation in the gut (near the solar plexus). Tingling, pressure, contraction, tightness. Also some sensation of tightness in the scalp.
With love and thanks xxx

[Anastacia42]

Okay, good, that's how it feels when you LIE.

This is very important. Why? SELF IS A LIE

Every time you're tempted to believe, you'll find this tight, heavy contraction in your gut. This should be taught to children by the time they are 5!

Pay attention to your gut.

Got it? Keep testing it against known lies.Verify this for yourself!

Now please check this pointer again. I hope you find some very different answers.

Explore ‘Sense of Self’

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken.

This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?

Loving,

[Padmasukha]

Hi Stacy,

Explore ‘Sense of Self’
Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?

No

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

No

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

No

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

...

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

No

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

Only thoughts. Habits of thought and language that label perceptions, feelings, volitions, thoughts, awareness as 'I' or 'Mine'.

What is found?

Just thoughts. What constitutes the feeling of a self is just the appearance of feelings, emotions (sensation plus thoughts,) and awareness, plus the 'I' label. Feelings, etc. appear, but they're not 'mine', because there is no me.
But when I write 'there is no me', the thought 'wait, there is a me because I'm here, thinking this' immediately arises! Descartes' 'I think, therefore I am.' It's like there's something fighting for the survival of the 'me'! Such a persistent pattern of defensive thoughts of 'self' and its preservation.
Also, the more I look, the more I notice how much of life is performed/experienced without a conscious 'I' thought.

With much love and gratitude xxx

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

Just thoughts. What constitutes the feeling of a self is just the appearance of feelings, emotions (sensation plus thoughts,) and awareness, plus the 'I' label. Feelings, etc. appear, but they're not 'mine', because there is no me.

Yes. How does this FEEL in your body?

But when I write 'there is no me', the thought 'wait, there is a me because I'm here, thinking this' immediately arises! Descartes' 'I think, therefore I am.' It's like there's something fighting for the survival of the 'me'! Such a persistent pattern of defensive thoughts of 'self' and its preservation.

In a way, Descartes was right. Content of thought is ALL you are.

We can't get past what you *want* to believe. If you want to believe in the story of a "self," or some "fight" you will not see anything different. You can keep the delusions. Nothing I say can take that away from you.

That's why we decline any seeker here who answers less than 8 on willingness to question beliefs. If you're not willing, I have no power to force you, so what will it be?

Also, the more I look, the more I notice how much of life is performed/experienced without a conscious 'I' thought.

True. ALL OF IT.

Loving,

[Padmasukha]

Hi Stacy,
Thanks so much for your replies.
This morning I think the ice is breaking on on my fixed view.
I was given the idea a while ago of putting objects in random places around the house where I'll see them to remind me to be mindful, and a week or so ago I put some Lego people in places where I'll see them to that effect. I put Hermione on my desk.
Three mornings a week I host a small silent meditation group for friends on Zoom. This morning I started the meditation, then just sat contemplating Lego Hermione. (My son is the age group that grew up with Harry Potter, so the characters were big in his childhood, and we have the Lego out now for our grandson.)
So I was looking at Lego Hermione and thinking how I like her presence there on my desk. How she reminds me of wisdom, knowledge, courage, daring, loyalty, friendship, and so on. And then I realised more than ever before how small the difference is between my imputation of 'Hermione' upon an image of a body (or a Lego figure of a body!), the sound of a voice, and a whole bunch of stuff that isn't real, and the imputation of 'Steph, I, me, self' upon very little more than that.
Then I re-read the bit of your reply about Descartes:

In a way, Descartes was right. Content of thought is ALL you are.

There was a sudden sense of how 'Steph' is just like a cloud of thought. And then how stuff appears - trees for example - and we think 'trees' and that's just a cloud of thought, too. It's so hard to say how it felt different than before, ha ha!
I looked at the little images on my screen of my friends meditating, and thought how what I perceive them to be, and how that is made up, is so little different from how I hold Hermione in my mind.
Then I remembered your gut feeling thing, thought 'I', and there was the feeling you've been pointing at.
I was crying through quite a bit of this! Something has shifted.
With much love and gratitude as always xxx

[Anastacia42]

Steph, that sounds great!

I love Hermione and if that helps just keep doing it.

Go deeply into how it feels to notice the things you described. Ignore thinking focus on direct actual experience of your 5 senses.

Loving,