Pay Attention

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Purpleturtle
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Re: Pay Attention

Postby Purpleturtle » Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:33 pm

Hi Vivien,
When I pick up a glass it feels differently to me than when I see someone else do it.
What does the word I in the above sentence point to? And what does the word ‘someone else’ point to? To this body and that body over there?
I in that sentence points to the experience of picking up a glass, from the inside of actually doing it, and someone else is when I observe someone picking up a glass from the outside. The experience of this body is different to that one over there. This body senses movement of the arm directly and contact with the glass directly. With the other body over there I do not directly feel the contact with the glass or the movement of the arm etc.
Do you think that I = body?
Maybe.
Or there is a self (I) in each body?
Yes I do believe/assume that there is a self in each body, that this is my body and that is yours.
Take a glass and pick it up.
What is picking it up?
My hand.
Is there an entity inside the hand grabbing it and lifting it up?
No.
Or the entity is in the chest, and pulling strings from there?
No.
Or maybe the entity (I) is inside the head? Where?
The head is where I believe it (I) to be. There are sensations in the head and thoughts, which I think of as in the head, and there is a decision to move the arm and hand to pick up the glass, and the sensations that go with this. I sneezed when I was doing the exercise at one time. Sneezing felt quite different to picking up the glass even though I think “I sneezed” there was no sense of controlling sneezing unlike with picking up the glass. Even though I have not found the “decider” I still believe that there’s an I that chose, and I am opening more to the possibility that there might not be, that choice happens like sneezing happens.

Keith

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Vivien
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Re: Pay Attention

Postby Vivien » Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:20 am

Hi Keith,
The head is where I believe it (I) to be. There are sensations in the head and thoughts, which I think of as in the head, and there is a decision to move the arm and hand to pick up the glass, and the sensations that go with this.
Let’s slow this inquiry down, and be very specific.

So for the following days I would like to ask you to hunt down this I in the head :) hunting, but just gently. It’s rather a very focused curiosity… like when a cat trying to catch a mouse :)

So there is a belief that there is an I in the head. Then let’s find it.
Since we need experiential facts… we cannot be satisfied with beliefs and assumptions :)
We need proofs! Real proofs.

So pin down the exact physical location of the I in the head.
Is the I in the throat? Or is it in the nose? In the mouth?
Is it at the beck of the head? The top of the head? In the middle of the head?
Left ear? Or maybe right?
In the forehead? Or in the eyes? Or behind the eyes? Or between the two eyes? Right on the surface of the skin? Or maybe a 1 cm deeper, or 2 centimetres (or quarter of inch)?

Make sure that you don’t make this into a thinking exercise… rather… find the FEELING of an I inside the head.
Look for a feeling.

We're zooming on the base sensation, that is, the sensation that is the base for me-ness.
What is the exact location of this ‘sense of me’ = sensation that SEEMS to be me?

Repeat this again and again many times before replying.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Purpleturtle
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Re: Pay Attention

Postby Purpleturtle » Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:01 am

Hi Vivien,
I thought I would check in. The sensation that I keep coming back to when I look for this “I” is a pressure or knot like thing between my eyes and just above them, and back a bit, or sometimes sort of bulging from my forehead. The experience is of tension, and can be painful like a headache. I continue to look, and work at staying gentle (if that is possible). Maybe easing up when it seems to be getting forced or tight might be a better description. This is not always easy, feelings/thoughts of guilt have been coming up from things done in the past, and the football team I support was playing last night and went from winning to drawing. I tried not to look at the final score and sat with the uncertainty for a while. It was very difficult to relax into the experience. Eventually I checked before I could get to sleep. Surprising how intense an experience it was about something that doesn’t matter in itself.
Keith

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Vivien
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Re: Pay Attention

Postby Vivien » Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:25 am

Hi Keith,
This is not always easy, feelings/thoughts of guilt have been coming up from things done in the past, and the football team I support was playing last night and went from winning to drawing. I tried not to look at the final score and sat with the uncertainty for a while. It was very difficult to relax into the experience. Eventually I checked before I could get to sleep. Surprising how intense an experience it was about something that doesn’t matter in itself.
That was an emotional trigger with all sorts of stories around it. If you really look that is an old story, probably stemming from childhood.

We all have traumas; it cannot be escaped. So something happened in the past, which was perceived as traumatic at that time, and based on those experiences other beliefs of yourself have developed. Now, these beliefs are actively working under the radar, and being projected onto current circumstances of life, causing the same type of emotions that were present at the time of the early trauma/wound. After about the age of 6-8, we hardly experience any new emotions, rather the old emotions are recycled, replayed constantly, by projecting the original emotional response to current circumstances.
The sensation that I keep coming back to when I look for this “I” is a pressure or knot like thing between my eyes and just above them, and back a bit, or sometimes sort of bulging from my forehead. The experience is of tension, and can be painful like a headache.
OK, so you’ve found the location… the sensation that is being misinterpreted as a ‘sense of me’.

Without associating this sensation with me-ness, there is no me.

But it happens, out of sheer conditioning and habit like biting nails, or checking Facebook.
Me IS the association of this sensation between the eyes with the notion of me-ness. That's it.

Sensation (called knot or pressure) between the eyes ----- notion of me-ness.
Connected by a thin line of string.

This sensation you will notice shifts. It may appear and then be gone. You may be conscious of it, and then not, and wonder what happened to the last hour.

For all its fickleness, this sensation, and the location in which it occurs (between the eyes, and a bit above) effectively IS the ‘thing’ that is being misperceived as ‘me inside’ you’ve thought yourself to be, the one that thinks, speaks and does.

It's quite funny really, that we had so much invested in an on-off sensation.

Continue observe this sensation and notice what it is you can discover of this sensation only as feeling/sensation only. What do you find? Do you really find Keith there?

What can you discover about this sensation as a sensation only?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Purpleturtle
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Re: Pay Attention

Postby Purpleturtle » Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:50 am

Hi Vivien,
Continue observe this sensation and notice what it is you can discover of this sensation only as feeling/sensation only. What do you find? Do you really find Keith there?
I notice a sensation which changes, it can be tight, it can loosen and be more open, it can feel painful, it can not be there or be faint or strong, it can feel hollow or dense, I am more acutely aware of it at night when lying awake in bed, I haven’t found Keith there.
What can you discover about this sensation as a sensation only?
That it is a sensation like other sensations which come and go.

Keith

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Vivien
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Re: Pay Attention

Postby Vivien » Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:35 am

Hi Keith,
That it is a sensation like other sensations which come and go.
Yes! This me-ness, or sense of self/I is nothing else than an ordinary sensation, and only a thought labels is, more precisely, mislabels it as a ‘me’. Can you really see this?

Could it be that the self is just a thought, and that's why it can't be found? Could it be that it only appears when a thought "I" or "me" appears? Or is it always there?

Does the self in those thoughts, or in that story, refer to an actual discrete entity, having an independent existence outside that story?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Purpleturtle
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Re: Pay Attention

Postby Purpleturtle » Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:48 am

Hi Vivien,
Sorry for the delay in replying. I seem to need longer than a day to inquire with these questions properly.
Yes! This me-ness, or sense of self/I is nothing else than an ordinary sensation, and only a thought labels is, more precisely, mislabels it as a ‘me’. Can you really see this?
Not really it’s still somewhat on the level of a notion. I would say that I catch glimpses of it. I continue to look at sensations as they arise and pass, or there is awareness and sensations arise and pass.
Could it be that the self is just a thought, and that's why it can't be found?
Yes it could, this helps in looking by taking some of the pressure off somehow.
Could it be that it only appears when a thought "I" or "me" appears?
Yes, that is when it appears.
Or is it always there?
It’s always there if I think “I” am looking for it rather than just looking.
Does the self in those thoughts, or in that story, refer to an actual discrete entity, having an independent existence outside that story?
No, this is gradually becoming more clear to me and helping me to accept the arising and passing of stuff.

Keith

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Vivien
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Re: Pay Attention

Postby Vivien » Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:52 am

Hi Keith,
Sorry for the delay in replying. I seem to need longer than a day to inquire with these questions properly.
As long as you spend the time with inquiring, that’s all right :)
V: Or is it always there?
K: It’s always there if I think “I” am looking for it rather than just looking.
Are you sure that there is an I, without having a thought which contains the word ‘I’?

Look very carefully with this one.
V: Does the self in those thoughts, or in that story, refer to an actual discrete entity, having an independent existence outside that story?
K: No, this is gradually becoming more clear to me and helping me to accept the arising and passing of stuff.
Who/what is there to accept that there is no real I?

The thought ‘I” needs to accept it?

The body needs to accept it? Which part of it? The chest? The head? Or it’s the acceptance of the eyes?

Or maybe there is a sensation that is trying to accept that there is no real I?

Is seeing that the I is nothing else than an idea needs acceptance?
Acceptance of who / what?

Where is the one that could accept it? Show it to me.

Please dig deep. Don’t leave any stone unturned.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Purpleturtle
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Re: Pay Attention

Postby Purpleturtle » Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:21 am

Hi Vivien,
Are you sure that there is an I, without having a thought which contains the word ‘I’?
No, there is only an I when there is a thought of an I. Including the thought ‘I am looking’.
Who/what is there to accept that there is no real I?
Ha! got me there. The idea of an I trying to accept that there is no I outside of ideas - mad.
The thought “I” needs to accept it?
Acceptance and not acceptance are only in thoughts, and thoughts can do neither.
The body needs to accept it? Which part of it? The chest? The head? Or it’s the acceptance of the eyes?
These are all labels for sensations they have nothing to do with acceptance they just are what they are, when they are. There is accepting the experience/sensations that are for what they are, and there is not accepting - wanting them to be different. I don’t know how that happens. I experience an added tension when the experience is denied/rejected/not wanted than when it is allowed/accepted.
Or maybe there is a sensation that is trying to accept that there is no real I?
There is awareness of sensations. I cannot find a sensation that accepts things.
Is seeing that the I is nothing else that an idea needs acceptance?
There is nothing to accept it others than more ideas about I, which can neither accept nor not accept. Acceptance is another idea.
Where is the one that could accept it? Show it to me.
I can’t.

Keith

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Vivien
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Re: Pay Attention

Postby Vivien » Sat Jan 30, 2021 8:07 am

Hi Keith,
No, there is only an I when there is a thought of an I. Including the thought ‘I am looking’.
Can you see this experientially, or this is rather an intellectual understanding?
There is accepting the experience/sensations that are for what they are, and there is not accepting - wanting them to be different.
And how does acceptance or resistance show up? In what form? Is there anything else to them than a thought?

Can acceptance actually be experienced? How?
Can resistance itself experienced? How? Is it possible at all?
Or these are just more stories?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Purpleturtle
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Re: Pay Attention

Postby Purpleturtle » Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:14 pm

Hi Vivien,
No, there is only an I when there is a thought of an I. Including the thought ‘I am looking’.
Can you see this experientially, or this is rather an intellectual understanding?
It’s mostly intellectual, an idea rather than directly seeing, but not completely. “I” continue to look, and look for the “I”. There is some intuition of just seeing, just awareness, just experience.
Can acceptance actually be experienced? How?
There is an openness to an experience when “I” think “Let’s just accept what is” which feels more pleasant but the experience itself is unchanged. The acceptance/non acceptance is in thoughts, and stories about liking or not liking.
Can resistance itself experienced? How? Is it possible at all?
There is a tightness and discomfort when “I” think “This is horrible will it ever go away” which feels very unpleasant, and yet the actual sensations might be the same as above.
Or these are just more stories?
They are more stories, and I get caught in them if I’m not careful.

Keith

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Vivien
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Re: Pay Attention

Postby Vivien » Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:00 am

Hi Keith,
It’s mostly intellectual, an idea rather than directly seeing, but not completely.
I would like to ask you to always report what you can ACTUALLY SEE experientially and not what you understand intellectually. Otherwise, you would give me a false impression that you can actually see something, while you can’t. I write my replies based on your comments, and if you make a statement as above “that it’s just an illusion that keeps occurring” then you are giving me a wrong signal.

So please only write what is 100% true in your experience, all right?
There is an openness to an experience when “I” think “Let’s just accept what is”
Who / what is thinking that thought?
Where is the thinker?
Is there any control over thoughts?
They are more stories, and I get caught in them if I’m not careful.
Is there an actual YOU / Keith outside of stories trying to be not get caught in them?
Where is this you?


You really have to look here. It’s not about not being get caught in thoughts, but rather about investigating if there is actually a me OUTSIDE of thoughts, trying to be not get in caught in them… OR… this outside me is just another thought believed. Just another story about ME. Please look very carefully.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Purpleturtle
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Re: Pay Attention

Postby Purpleturtle » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:17 am

Hi Vivien,
So please only write what is 100% true in your experience, all right?/quote]
All right. I'll do my best. I can't guarantee 100%.
Who / what is thinking that thought?/quote]
I don't know. The thought arises and the quality of sensations changes without the actual sensations being different.
Where is the thinker?
As I look at the thoughts as they arise and pass away, there is a subtle sense or thought that "I" am there looking at them, So, I continue to look there.
Is there any control over thoughts?/quote]
There is no direct control over thoughts. Thoughts are calmer in some situations and more agitated in others.

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Vivien
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Re: Pay Attention

Postby Vivien » Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:25 am

Hi Keith,
As I look at the thoughts as they arise and pass away, there is a subtle sense or thought that "I" am there looking at them, So, I continue to look there.
Please describe this ‘subtle sense or thought that I am there looking at them’ as precisely as you can. But be careful not add anything extra there is not there in reality :)

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Purpleturtle
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Re: Pay Attention

Postby Purpleturtle » Fri Feb 05, 2021 4:35 pm

Hi Vivien,
Please describe this ‘subtle sense or thought that I am there looking at them’ as precisely as you can. But be careful not add anything extra there is not there in reality :)
Just checking in. What I can find so far is a background running commentary of thoughts with content like “I am hearing that sound” or “I am noticing a thought” that arise with sensations.

Keith


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