Truly Desperately Lost

[Seamist]

Hi Matthias
That all sounds good.
Have a piece of fruit handy, or something that you like to eat.
For the first couple of minutes imagine you are eating the fruit…..feel the sensations of chewing, the taste, the texture, the fragrance, hear the crunching sound that the chewing makes. Really enjoy the imaginary piece of fruit as much as you can.
Then for the next couple of minutes actually bite the fruit and see the difference. Experience the fruit with curiosity and dive into the sensations of chewing, swallowing, the sounds and the taste. Really enjoy the experience of actually eating the piece of fruit.
Then for another minute or so describe the taste and smell in as much detail as possible. Write about it here. What was the experience like?
After you have done this, tell me what you noticed when you compared these three experiences:-
1. Imaginary fruit
2. Real fruit
3. Description

xx

[Zeno]

Ok the smell of the apple piece was fresh, a bit sour. The taste was sweet with a little bitter. The feeling of it on the tongue was a bit rough, with the hardness of the peel in between. Soon it became wet from the juice. The taste lingers in the mounth for quite some time, a little sweet with a little sour. at the middle of the tongue are. It urges to take more like with sweets. The sound was a crunch with a cracking in between.

3. Description

Is sh.. It is impossible to capture this and all words hinge on other experiences. That language can transmit meaning between individuals is really a miracle.

1. Imaginary fruit

I liked the fruit. I imagined eating it, but that soon evolved in more elaborate context of eating it. From fairy tales (poisoned apple, good apple) to advertisment (beatiful landscape), to cooking (apple pie, jam) and back to eating. Howver the eating imagination lacked the virtuosity. All imagination was flat, but it was changeable. When imagining just eating the flatness became boring and dry. Hard to concentrate on. Imagining activities you could actually do with senses is not much fun. The fun comes with the fantasy with the virtual play.

2. Real fruit

There are better apples (well it is spring time). The experience had the most depth. It also involved different senses, but only one was in the foreground. Imagination was accompanying eating it, as the label apple was around all the time. E.g. when looking at the touch of the tongue there was this image of an "applepiece-in-mouth" coming with it. It was grounded as it was in a sense happening as it is. Eating apple.
For a few seconds the experience also swoll and became, hmm, totalizing? It was at the end, when I already thought it is finished (apple piece eaten) and I did not really look at it. It was a brief rush of only mouth apple and wet finger feeling.
...
[shift]
ok, in the end of the experience I was not so much in my thought as before.
I repeated the exercise and drank some coffee and tried to experience it as the apple. And yes. It is not one sense totalizing, but there seems to be more room for an overall broader sense experience. Maybe it is just faster, but it feels like parallel of sound, touch and taste (guess it is just fast serial, but anyway). Overall it is more room/space, if not analyzing at the same time. Guess it was a subtle image-thought that takes away, ... , hmm bandwidth?
When I drop down to body sensation before doing the exercise, then I can repeat this broader perspective. Also the actor falls away. It is funny that this hand takes the cup puts it to lips and coffee taste comes with this liquid sensation. Bitter. At the same time there is this broader overall awareness of many other things happening. I wonder again if it is just faster awareness and switching or parallel awareness of more than one thing. Hard or impossible to distinguish (also not stable at all).
Actually it also does not taste that good. Why do I drink this?

[Seamist]

That's great looking and noticing, Matthias, lovely.

Here is an exercise which points out the difference between direct experience and content of thought.
There are two types of thoughts:
(1) Thoughts with words “Here is cup”
(2) Visual mental images of a ‘cup’
So I invite you to do this exercise:
Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Do you have a clear picture in mind?
Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?
Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup?
Is there an appearing mental image?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?
The thoughts and mental images are real only as arising thoughts and mental images, their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?
Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is really happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.

x

[Zeno]

Sioned, I take 2 days off and go on a hike with my daughter. I will take the task with me and will post friday evening. Xx Matthias

[Seamist]

ok, have a good time x

[Zeno]

Let me know how it goes.

Since the difference between content of thought and physical experience via sensation is clearly seen, I mostly write about when this happens at all. So I agree on all what is described in the exercise.

Sometimes that is triggered by thinking about the exercise. Then I become suddenly aware of an image about the future or the past, E.g. when planning the hike I developed the packlist by imagining different scenarios and imagining myself in them (cooking on stove). From that I must say that I kind of am 99% not here. Either elsewhere in time or in space or both. Maybe that is too pesimistic and it is only 98%, Then there are the times when I am here, not in thought or image, but not aware of it. E.g. when walking in between the 99% of imagining the goal of the hike or in conversation, conversation actually is also almost completely filled with thought. That is the 1-2% rest.
Then there are these rare moments, when I shift, spontaneously, and become aware of all the rest. There is then the same difference between sensation and imagining-thinking. But on e or hand from that different perspective it both seems, hmm, on a similar level? It is like land and see, but seen from above it is not that different. Although “ above” is wrong, it is more like on a trampoline vs. swimming? It is immeresed but with similarity. Another way to describe it is with an observer, but that would be equally wrong, it gets the distance which makes thought and sensation similar despite the difference, both are experiencings, but it lacks in immersion. It is not cinema. Like when you become aware of sitting in the cinema instead of beeing in the movie. It is more like being in the movie and experiencing wonder or joy of being in the movie.
However it is still rare, when I write here, it happens quite a lot actually. I wonder it is really indispensable to cloister yourself for a couple of years to make that continuous. But what if you then get in the Metro on your way back or talk with your teenage daughter and all this, ahhh here is agood word, all this equanimity is just gone?

Ps. Funny that the exercise uses also this image-thought word-thought (subvocalization) language, that I also discovered to work for me. Wonder if I read it before somewhere? But it does not matter, it felt right to use it to describe my experience.

[Seamist]

Hi Matthias

the difference between content of thought and physical experience via sensation is clearly seen,

ok, we can move on in that case.

I'm wondering whether you are expecting to attain to some other state of being as a result of this inquiry? It seems that there are periods for you when your experience seems quite difference, and that then you are disapointed when that changes. Is that correct? Bear in mind that experiences come and go...that's their nature. Do you get that?

When you're ready, have go at this next one..
1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.
Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-
How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?


x Sioned

[Zeno]

I'm wondering whether you are expecting to attain to some other state of being as a result of this inquiry?

Yes and no. Yes, I do experience different ways of being and I hope that the one I call shifted becomes more stable or accessible. The basis seems to be a different state of awareness. It also seems that it is trainable to fall into that.
Do I think that this will safe me, rescue me, make all positive, make all life bliss? Yea maybe I think that, when not in that "mood". But once there, this also falls away. I am not rescued in any sense. "There" is not special, it is more normal than before in a sense.
Am I disappointed when not "there". Yes I am, but once "there" or shifted, it is not that I reached the goal, but more like the searching or striving is gone. Just gone.
So on the one hand I must agree with your analysis, but on the other I do not agree.
[shift]
aah, was just sitting there and actually the shifted is always there. That is weird. Actually there is no change between shifted and non-shifted, but only a knowledge of it. So nothing changes except that an "experience" or something designated "experience" makes me watch out or look for the same thing wich is always present, but I do not "normally" see. That is wonderful. Really wonderful. I mean, this playfulness and openness is a basis for all? Experiences come and go. But they come and go based on the open canvass of, hmm, yeah, have no word for it. This openness?

Exercsie:
Result: No controller found except in image-thought of conceptual (analytical) thought. Great fun to watch flipingp hands. Laughter.

How is the movement controlled? Does a thought control it?

I have no clue. It is a weird thing. Turns into funny. I want to turn, but it does not happen, then the turn happens without me wanting it, ans sometimes it fits and there is a correlation between thought and hand turning.
However I can prime it. Counting down 3,2,1 the hand turns always at the end. Repeatable. That gives some control images.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

But when Inquiring about what controls it always invokes a thought (mostly image-thought) e.g. an image of my head with a centre point, with additional sensation of head skin and head muscles.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

If looking for a decision point, nothing happens. Even thinking "turn" does not end in action. Well sometimes it does, but that is only correspndance not causality. But it is possible to align both more "fruitfully" to get impression of causality. On the other hand this can be stopped completely as well.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

This body does that. That is for sure. But it just happens (like me typing now my subvocalization). There is no chooser but only an awarer?

[Seamist]

Hi Matthias
Lovely to read!

aah, was just sitting there and actually the shifted is always there. That is weird. Actually there is no change between shifted and non-shifted, but only a knowledge of it. So nothing changes except that an "experience" or something designated "experience" makes me watch out or look for the same thing wich is always present, but I do not "normally" see.

Exactly so! Fabulous!

That is wonderful. Really wonderful. I mean, this playfulness and openness is a basis for all? Experiences come and go. But they come and go based on the open canvass of, hmm, yeah, have no word for it. This openness?

great

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?[
This body does that. That is for sure. But it just happens (like me typing now my subvocalization). There is no chooser but only an awarer?/quote]. It happens but there is no I doing it. There is awareness but no chooser.

Can an awarer be found?

You're doing well!
xx

[Zeno]

Can an awarer be found?

Tried to find an answer to it. It is really hard. It is like a last resort.
No, there is no awarer.

Every time I approach the awarer, an image-thought is involved. But it can be very subtle. It is only now, that I become aware of it. Often this image-thought involves a spatial location, but one that can be even empty. Still it is a location, where the hypostazied "awarer" could potentially be. Like in a 3-d map. But once one falls back to sensual experience, there is no location at all. Space is only a construct of the mind. As well as time. This is, hmm, disconcerting in a sense. Disorienting. Unusual. Quickly overridden by something orienting, something familiar. Which then is, another thought.

So were is the "awarer". Because something must be aware that the "awarer" is only a thought. But that is another thought. So when the question is not there, then no awarer is there, or missing either. The awarer pops into existence, once the question is asked.

Otherwise, no awarer, just awaring.

Coming back to the question of being in, or out of that ... space. Still hard to experience spaciousness in non-spaciousness?? Hmm, it is a bit like catching glibber, like sausage snapping. An impossible balance (if experienced static). The balance comes with the dynamics. Hmm. Walking a fine line. Chinese plate juggling to be aware of the spaciousness in the constricted normal view. It is like watching through the periphery of vision. When you focus on it, things disappear, but once you unfocus the appear. So in non-spaciousness, spaciousness is there, but not if focused. Argh. Really hard to get into words.

[Zeno]

Can an awarer be found?

Tried to find an answer to it. It is really hard. It is like a last resort.
No, there is no awarer.

Every time I approach the awarer, an image-thought is involved. But it can be very subtle. It is only now, that I become aware of it. Often this image-thought involves a spatial location, but one that can be even empty. Still it is a location, where the hypostazied "awarer" could potentially be. Like in a 3-d map. But once one falls back to sensual experience, there is no location at all. Space is only a construct of the mind. As well as time. This is, hmm, disconcerting in a sense. Disorienting. Unusual. Quickly overridden by something orienting, something familiar. Which then is, another thought.

So were is the "awarer". Because something must be aware that the "awarer" is only a thought. But that is another thought. So when the question is not there, then no awarer is there, or missing either. The awarer pops into existence, once the question is asked.

Otherwise, no awarer, just awaring.

Coming back to the question of being in, or out of that ... space. Still hard to experience spaciousness in non-spaciousness?? Hmm, it is a bit like catching glibber, like sausage snapping. An impossible balance (if experienced static). The balance comes with the dynamics. Hmm. Walking a fine line. Chinese plate juggling to be aware of the spaciousness in the constricted normal view. It is like watching through the periphery of vision. When you focus on it, things disappear, but once you unfocus the appear. So in non-spaciousness, spaciousness is there, but not if focused. Argh. Really hard to get into words.

[Zeno]

Can an awarer be found?

Tried to find an answer to it. It is really hard. It is like a last resort.
No, there is no awarer.

Every time I approach the awarer, an image-thought is involved. But it can be very subtle. It is only now, that I become aware of it. Often this image-thought involves a spatial location, but one that can be even empty. Still it is a location, where the hypostazied "awarer" could potentially be. Like in a 3-d map. But once one falls back to sensual experience, there is no location at all. Space is only a construct of the mind. As well as time. This is, hmm, disconcerting in a sense. Disorienting. Unusual. Quickly overridden by something orienting, something familiar. Which then is, another thought.

So were is the "awarer". Because something must be aware that the "awarer" is only a thought. But that is another thought. So when the question is not there, then no awarer is there, or missing either. The awarer pops into existence, once the question is asked.

Otherwise, no awarer, just awaring.

Coming back to the question of being in, or out of that ... space. Still hard to experience spaciousness in non-spaciousness?? Hmm, it is a bit like catching glibber, like sausage snapping. An impossible balance (if experienced static). The balance comes with the dynamics. Hmm. Walking a fine line. Chinese plate juggling to be aware of the spaciousness in the constricted normal view. It is like watching through the periphery of vision. When you focus on it, things disappear, but once you unfocus the appear. So in non-spaciousness, spaciousness is there, but not if focused. Argh. Really hard to get into words.

[Seamist]

Hi Matthias
Good morning!
[quote]Can an awarer be found?
Tried to find an answer to it. It is really hard. It is like a last resort.
No, there is no awarer.[/quote] I like the comment about it being like a last resort! YES

Otherwise, no awarer, just awaring.

exactly. Great

Space is only a construct of the mind. As well as time.

and yes

Really hard to get into words.

yes, it will be, but that's ok, and you've managed well.

How is it to become aware of all that?
xx

[Zeno]

Dear Sioned,

Sorry for not posting. Your question of “how it is” took me by surprise. I fell back to my expectations. I had more expectations than I assumed. Punchline is: but if it is ”that”, than nothing changed and I am stuck in this shit (maybe even forever). Of course this happens only when I am in the me-mode. So I ended a bit depressed the last days, with in between moments of spacioussness and no thinking. These momennts energiezed me into activity only to fall back into stupor and misery. It is a bit worrysome in terms of psychic health..
At the same time I am quite aware of this happening, but cannot stop the habits. That makes it even weirder and out of control. Also I am easily angered and get furious more often than usual.
I guess control is really important here. In a sense the expectation of control is gone, but I am not happy with the results. It also effects my productivity. I am barely able to work, it is so hard to make me sit down now and do it. The punisher/controller is not strong enough anymore. But at the same time I feel miserable about not being capable.
But then there are moments of total ease, timelesness and spaciousness in between. They are wonderful and miraculous still.

It is a bit like rollercoaster, or driving a car and not knowing how to shift gears or how to use gas and brake smoothly.

When in me-mode I ask, what that whole exercise is for, nothing changed and nothing will change in my life, still same family problems, work problems blablabla (expectation part) and I am moody about that. When in spaciousness that is not there but it does not spill over (expectation), hmmm .. well that is not true, it does affect all modes but not in a strong sense (expectation). The effect is soft and gradual. I guess in the me-mode ”I Want To” ... control the process, exploit it, optimize it, shape it to My desires, make My dream life real ... and of course that is bull... Habits are just there and working.

I noticed before that there is actually no difference between the “two modes”. But in practice, that is still a fresh experience and so the notion ist still quite conceptual rather than practically experienced. Guess that is one part of the currently bumpy ride here.

Result: what is still a struggle is the question of intentionality/will/control/nudging you name it. In me mode it is there, in spaciousness not. That causes clashes and collides with deep seated expectations About salvation. Is there a road to become more integrated?

I: safe me I am drowning,
other: open your eyes,
I: no that wont help, don’t you notice I am drowning,
Other: LOOK,
I: cannot. I am busy drowning,
Other: It really helps to just look.
I: (looks) oh true, when I look I notice I am sitting in a bathtub. (Closes eyes again)
I: help me I am drowning.
Other: sigh!

[Seamist]

Hi Matthias,
Sorry to hear that things are bumpy at the moment. That can happen. An important tip at this point is to be very careful when you're driving.
Good you're noticing expectations at play.What are they currently? check them out and let me know Is there a fear of losing something?

When in me-mode I ask, what that whole exercise is for, nothing changed and nothing will change in my life, still same family problems, work problems blablabla (expectation part) and I am moody about that.

It's true that life goes on as before - but at the same time something shifts - perspective, is one way of putting it. There aren't really 2 modes, as I expect you realise - it's just a difference way of experiencing - and at the moment you're flipping, so causing disorientation. Hard! But it's good, too!

Let's continue, but be patient and gently with "Matthias" right now: he seems to be fearfully hanging on!

Here's a further hand exercise to explore (if you can bear with it: let me know if you'd rather move on)
22. Raising Hand Exercise
1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.
Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-
What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?


I'd like you to keep in more frequent contact at the moment, while things are as they are currently. I'm at home and not working right now, so do get in contact as often as you'd like to.

xx Sioned