Getting closer ...

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Vivien
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Vivien » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:50 am

Hi Chris,

It’s very normal during the inquiry for emotional reactions to come up. Clients quite often feel that their guides are not listening to them, or not understanding them, or that the guide’s words are too blunt or harsh. All sorts of emotions can come up, like anger, frustration, resentment, fear, judgement, feeling being judged, avoidance, resistance, etc. These are all normal. These all happens because the seeming me feels threatened.

Some clients get so upset that they ask for a new guide. And when they get a new guide everything feels fresh and new, but sooner than later they get upset with the new guide too. And at this point they often abort the inquiry without even saying a word.

This is all normal, and part of the process. We get triggered by the same patters which have always been with us from childhood. There is nothing new here, just recycled reactions and patterns.
I will continue to try and look as best I can. But I can't guarantee you that every time is gonna be a perfect looking. So if those are your conditions, then it sounds like you may indeed leave the process if you don't get the level of looking you're requiring.
I’m not expecting a ‘perfect looking’. But I hope you can see that I cannot let go on dead end road.
I have to point out again and again when you are intellectualizing.

I have more than 15 clients, and there is just one person beside you who I spend as much time and effort as with you. To all of the other clients I reply back only once a day, but with you two, I reply several times a day. And it’ not rare that a reply takes half an hour or sometimes even longer to write. So clearly, I am fond of you, but it doesn’t mean that I will always reply as you would expect me. Sometimes it’s necessary to be blunt to wake up someone from intellectualization. This is one the biggest hurdles to get through.

Ultimately, my job is to help you along the way and point you to see through the self for yourself, even if you don’t feel comfortable and happy all the way along. You might find my words harsh (but I don’t mean it to be harsh), that my job is not to make you happy, but to help you to SEE what is actually going on, instead of what you think is going on. My job is to help you ‘wake you up’ form the dream of story-land.

There is almost no client, who after some time, doesn’t start to rely on the memory of previous looking. It’s so common that I literally copy-paste a text for everybody when they get to that stage. And this is exactly what I did with you too. So it’s not personal at all. It’s part of the process.

Here is what I am referring to:

With looking, you ALWAYS have to LOOK AFRESH and NEVER RELY ON MEMORY of previous looking. Why? Because if you rely on the memory of a previous looking in a form of a thought: “I know there is no self” without actually looking afresh for a self, then in that moment the no-self is just a belief. So every time it seems like or feels like as if there were a self, but you just remind yourself with the thought “there is no self”, then you just covering up one belief (the seemingly perceived self) with another belief (there is no self).

It’s the looking and looking and looking and more looking that brings about the realization.

So every time I ask a question, you always have to look afresh, to see it again and again what is being pointed it. Can we agree on this?


So please reply to this, since it’s essential to always look afresh.

Also, look at these too:
V: Is there a ‘true self’ outside of concepts?
C: No (I just saw that clearly, for one quick moment).
But there are huge body sensations coming up, that the 'I' intuitively trusts.
The ‘I’ trust?
Can a fiction trust?
Or there is only a fictional story about an I trusting?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Chris1001
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:21 am

Hi Vivien
So every time I ask a question, you always have to look afresh, to see it again and again what is being pointed it. Can we agree on this?
I will look afresh every time, at what is being pointed at. Agreed.
The ‘I’ trust?
Can a fiction trust?
Or there is only a fictional story about an I trusting?
As I am looking, a fiction can't trust.
Yes there is only a fictional story about this. It doesn't exist in actual experience.

This is from looking very simply, as if thru' the eyes of the 8 year old boy.

Chris

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Chris1001
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:37 am

There was still this one too..
And does it matter what thoughts ‘say’? Are you the thinker of thoughts?
Do you make these thoughts to appear?
No, it shouldn't matter what thoughts 'say'. There isn't a 'doer' of thoughts - an actual thing called a thinker.
There isn't a me that makes the thoughts appear. The 'me' is just another thought.
A thought cannot make thoughts appear.

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Vivien
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Vivien » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:42 am

Hi Chris,
This is from looking very simply, as if thru' the eyes of the 8 year old boy.
Good. Thank you for your willingness to look.

Previously you wrote:
V: But WHO has a problem to accept it? [that it’s simple]
C: Thoughts do. Body sensations do. Intuition does.
So, do thoughts are some kind of entities who have the power and free will to decide over things, with a result of either accepting it or not accepting it?

Or thoughts about not accepting it just part of story, the narrative?
Body sensations do.
And are bodily sensations some kind of agencies who have the power to decide over things, with the free will of not accepting the simplicity of what is?

Or there are only bodily sensations arising on their own, which is interpreted by the thought-narrative of “it’s hard to accept”?

Intuition does.
And what is intuition? How does intuition show up? How intuition is experienced?
As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Image?

What is the difference between a ‘simple thought’ and an ‘intuition thought’?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Chris1001
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:38 am

Hi Vivien
So, do thoughts are some kind of entities who have the power and free will to decide over things, with a result of either accepting it or not accepting it?
Right now, I can see that no, thoughts do not have the power and free will to make decisions, they are not entities.
Or thoughts about not accepting it just part of story, the narrative?
Yes, I can see thoughts about not accepting it are part of a story, narrative.
And are bodily sensations some kind of agencies who have the power to decide over things, with the free will of not accepting the simplicity of what is?
No, they are not agencies with power to decide over things. They do not have 'free will' to accept or reject anything.
Or there are only bodily sensations arising on their own, which is interpreted by the thought-narrative of “it’s hard to accept”?
From observation they are arising on their own, in a habituated manner, which is interpreted by that thought-narrative, yes.
Although I cannot see/find an 'interpretation action' occurring as such. Not right now anyway.
And what is intuition? How does intuition show up? How intuition is experienced?
As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Image?
Sensation - expansive. Some auditory thoughts and visual imagery thoughts also, but main characteristic is sensation - expansive.
What is the difference between a ‘simple thought’ and an ‘intuition thought’?
Right now, the sensations are a bit more expansive around the intuitive thoughts, compared to the simple thoughts.

Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Vivien » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:09 am

Hi Chris,
V: And what is intuition? How does intuition show up? How intuition is experienced?
As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Image?
C: Sensation - expansive. Some auditory thoughts and visual imagery thoughts also, but main characteristic is sensation - expansive.
OK. So there is an expansive sensation present.

But if you ignore all thoughts and images, does the raw sensation itself suggest in any way that it’s ‘intuition’?
Does the sensation itself arrive self-proclaimed, introducing itself: “Hey, I’m intuition”?

Or only THOUGHTS INTERPRET/LABEL certain sensations, like the sensation of expansiveness as ‘intuition’?
V: What is the difference between a ‘simple thought’ and an ‘intuition thought’?
C: Right now, the sensations are a bit more expansive around the intuitive thoughts, compared to the simple thoughts.
Can you see that thoughts are categorized by other thoughts based on the qualities of the sensations that they are accompanied with?

And when a thought is accompanied with an expansive sensation, then another thought labels the previous thought which arrived with the expansive sensation as ‘intuition thought’?

And those thoughts that are not accompanied with an expansive sensation, are just labelled by the following thought as ‘simple thought’?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Chris1001
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:24 am

Hi Vivien
But if you ignore all thoughts and images, does the raw sensation itself suggest in any way that it’s ‘intuition’?
Does the sensation itself arrive self-proclaimed, introducing itself: “Hey, I’m intuition”?
No it does not.
Or only THOUGHTS INTERPRET/LABEL certain sensations, like the sensation of expansiveness as ‘intuition’?
Yes, absolutely. This is exactly how it is.
Can you see that thoughts are categorized by other thoughts based on the qualities of the sensations that they are accompanied with?
Yes absolutely. This is what is happening.
But also I cannot see/find a 'categorization action' that happens here.
And when a thought is accompanied with an expansive sensation, then another thought labels the previous thought which arrived with the expansive sensation as ‘intuition thought’?

And those thoughts that are not accompanied with an expansive sensation, are just labelled by the following thought as ‘simple thought’?
Yes, correct (or labelled as 'normal thoughts')

Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Vivien » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:51 am

Hi Chris,

So is it clear that 'intuition' is nothing else than a thought?

Try this out:
Close your eyes.
Imagine you are holding a melon.
Watch how the image shows up. See the shape, from, size, texture, temperature, colour.

What do you do to create the image?
Where is the I that creates the image? Or the ‘I’ just another image that pops up?

And what do you see when you open your eyes?

What happened to the melon? Was there ever a melon?

What is here without imagining anything?

Is the I, the character here, or is it imagined like the melon?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Chris1001
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:09 am

Hi Vivien
So is it clear that 'intuition' is nothing else than a thought?
Yes, it's very clear right now. No problem.
Close your eyes.
Imagine you are holding a melon.
Watch how the image shows up. See the shape, from, size, texture, temperature, colour.
What do you do to create the image?
Absolutely nothing. It happened all on it's own.
Where is the I that creates the image? Or the ‘I’ just another image that pops up?
No 'I' was there to be seen. It wasn't even an image that popped up.
And what do you see when you open your eyes?
Just the room. The objects in the room.
What happened to the melon? Was there ever a melon?
No, it was never there in the first place.
What is here without imagining anything?
I close my eyes, hold out my hand in the opened position and...just empty space.
Is the I, the character here, or is it imagined like the melon?
Here is my 'looking':
I see...sensations, thoughts...
Thoughts that get labelled 'I' (but they're not actually getting labelled 'I' by anything solid/real.)
Sensations labelled 'I'.
I can see right now the various components - the sensation combined with visual imagery that delineates the face - that I told you about before (not relying on a previous looking - it is happening right now).
I can see - or rather 'hear' - the auditory mental chatter that says 'I/me'. I can feel the utterly impersonal body contractions.
I can see all the components that make up the illusory me/I. How they 'appear' in imagination.
And no, I don't 'see' a character here.

I am remembering right now the youtube clip you sent me of the 'rotating' circle comprised of little balls that were not actually rotating.

Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Vivien » Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:23 am

Hi Chris,
Here is my 'looking':
I see...sensations, thoughts...
Thoughts that get labelled 'I' (but they're not actually getting labelled 'I' by anything solid/real.)
Sensations labelled 'I'.
I can see right now the various components - the sensation combined with visual imagery that delineates the face - that I told you about before (not relying on a previous looking - it is happening right now).
I can see - or rather 'hear' - the auditory mental chatter that says 'I/me'. I can feel the utterly impersonal body contractions.
I can see all the components that make up the illusory me/I. How they 'appear' in imagination.
And no, I don't 'see' a character here.
This is great looking :

When you say: “I see.. sensations, thoughts… I see the various components… I see the visual imaginary… I hear the auditory mental chatter that say “I/me”… I feel the impersonal bodily contractions….”

What does the word ‘I’ refer into when you say: “I see”?
What is it that sees sensations and thoughts?
What is it that sees the various components?
What sees the visual imaginary?
What hears the auditory mental chatter that say ‘I/me’?
What feels the impersonal bodily contractions?

In other words, is there a seer, hearer, feeler? Or seeing, hearing and feeling just happening on their own, without anyone or anything doing it? Which feels truer?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Chris1001
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:38 am

Hi Vivien
When you say: “I see.. sensations, thoughts… I see the various components… I see the visual imaginary… I hear the auditory mental chatter that say “I/me”… I feel the impersonal bodily contractions….”
What does the word ‘I’ refer into when you say: “I see”?
Right now as I say 'I see' there is auditory thought 'I' and it isn't referring to anything at this point.
What is it that sees sensations and thoughts?
I can't say what this mechanism is. It's not even accurate to call it 'seeing'.
In the immediate sense there is an 'inner seeing' that is taking place, yes (but I would say that's conceptual).
In actual observation I cannot find a 'thing' - i.e. an object - which is doing the seeing.
What is it that sees the various components?
There isn't a thing that 'sees' the components. And there isn't even a 'seeing'
What sees the visual imaginary?
I can't find a thing which sees it.
What hears the auditory mental chatter that say ‘I/me’?
There is mental chatter, followed by sensations. But there is not an object called 'me'.
What feels the impersonal bodily contractions?
Right now...silence. Then, body contractions happening. But...no feeler to be found. Cannot say what feels the body contractions.
In other words, is there a seer, hearer, feeler? Or seeing, hearing and feeling just happening on their own, without anyone or anything doing it? Which feels truer?
Yes, they are happening on their own, without anyone or anything - i.e. an object - doing them.

*Vivien, it's hard to find a different word to use other than 'I' as it is so habitually ingrained. So during this investigation, for the time being I am continuing to use this word.

Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Vivien » Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:49 am

Hi Chris,
*Vivien, it's hard to find a different word to use other than 'I' as it is so habitually ingrained. So during this investigation, for the time being I am continuing to use this word.
Yes, we have to use the word ‘I’ for communication. So feel free to do so. But periodically I might ask checking questions just to make sure that it is only for the sake of communication.

My following questions might sound as repetition, but it’s always good to look again and again to make sure that not even a shred of doubt is left.

Previously you wrote:
the sensation combined with visual imagery that delineates the face - that I told you about before (not relying on a previous looking - it is happening right now).
Focus on the image of me, the separate individual entity, is it an image or an actual entity?

Do you have a sense of there being a "someone" who sees? Someone that might subtly be a you?

Is the seer of thoughts is outside of thoughts, looking in, seeing thoughts?
Or the seer is just as part of the story as the character?

Is there a feeler outside of the story, or the feeler is just part of the story, just as the character?

Can you find an inherent self anywhere, outside of thought?

What in your own words is the illusion of the I?

Is there anything incomplete, right here right now?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Chris1001
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:26 am

Hi Vivien

I have to admit, reluctantly, that your rather tough approach from a few days ago did force me back on the track of 'just looking'. And I do appear to be, for now, back in business.

I've had to drop any pleasantries, smiley emoticons etc though, as that was fuelling the people-pleasing and needing-to-be-liked aspects of my personality, which I can see were getting in the way of this investigation. I've had to be formal and removed.

So just know that I am immensely grateful for all your wonderful ongoing hard work, patience and help in this investigation and will continue to be (even if I don't say it in every message).

Now then...
Focus on the image of me, the separate individual entity, is it an image or an actual entity?
It's not just an image. It is image combined with sensation.
Do you have a sense of there being a "someone" who sees? Someone that might subtly be a you?
From looking...there is sensation...and more sensations (different 'flavours' of sensation - that's the only way I can describe it. Some flavours get assigned the label 'familiar').
Then there's the thought (auditory) that pops up: "It's me!"
More visual imagery now. This time, a visual image of my eyes.
In a very general sense, there is 'awareness of body'...but this is also seen to be just sensations.
These are the components I find when looking for the someone who sees. There's no 'seer' or 'seeing' outside of these above described aspects, i.e. seer and seeing can be seen to be labels that are given to the components.

(I haven't experienced a 'complete falling away of sense-of-self' or anything like that. But I don't expect to.)
Is the seer of thoughts is outside of thoughts, looking in, seeing thoughts?
From looking...
There is no 'outside' or 'inside' to be found. No 'seer'. No 'seeing'. All of these are seen to be just combinations of the components as described previously.

So the whole question is itself conceptual, right?

The thoughts/sensations are 'appearing' from nowhere-to-be-found.
Or the seer is just as part of the story as the character?
Right now, there is no 'story'. No 'seer'. No 'character'.
Is there a feeler outside of the story, or the feeler is just part of the story, just as the character?
Right now there isn't a 'story'. There is sensation which gets labelled 'feeling'. And the 'feeler' is the combination again of the components of thought/sensation.
Can you find an inherent self anywhere, outside of thought?
No. Not outside of thought/sensation.
What in your own words is the illusion of the I?
You want the full explanation?
Thoughts and sensations combining in various ways. Thoughts consist of visual, often centred around physicality (such as the face - not from previous looking, but happening right now), and auditory (such as the labels I/me/mine - all happening right now). These combine with sensations - all different 'flavours' of sensations (a particularly potent part of the illusion is the 'sense' (this is of course just a sensation mixed with a label) that some of these sensations are 'familiar' and must therefore be 'me'. The sensation then gets expansive providing 'confirmation' that it must indeed be 'me' (i.e. if it feels good it must be right).
Obviously I've used speculative words here to describe the illusion, like 'if' and 'must'....because the illusion is exactly that - speculative!
The 'I' is thought of as being separate from everything else due to - once again - particular 'flavours' of sensation, such as the 'blink' which I described before. The blink can be very subtle and hard to see, which makes the illusion hard to crack. Just to make sure I'm not relying on a previous looking I'm gonna test it right now....
...yep, it's still happening.
The 'I' has a story, in 'Time'. But any Time other than the Now cannot be found in observation. No past or future. It is conceptual only.

How did I do?

Chris

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Chris1001
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:37 am

Is there anything incomplete, right here right now?
Right now there are thoughts...sensations...everything working just as it should.

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Vivien
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Vivien » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:59 pm

Hi Chris,
I have to admit, reluctantly, that your rather tough approach from a few days ago did force me back on the track of 'just looking'. And I do appear to be, for now, back in business.
I’m glad to hear that :)
I've had to drop any pleasantries, smiley emoticons etc though, as that was fuelling the people-pleasing and needing-to-be-liked aspects of my personality, which I can see were getting in the way of this investigation. I've had to be formal and removed.
All right, I understand you, no problem.
So just know that I am immensely grateful for all your wonderful ongoing hard work, patience and help in this investigation and will continue to be (even if I don't say it in every message).
You are very welcome :)
V: Can you find an inherent self anywhere, outside of thought?
C: No. Not outside of thought/sensation.
And is there a real self/me inside thoughts?
Thoughts and sensations combining in various ways. Thoughts consist of visual, often centred around physicality (such as the face - not from previous looking, but happening right now), and auditory (such as the labels I/me/mine - all happening right now). These combine with sensations - all different 'flavours' of sensations (a particularly potent part of the illusion is the 'sense' (this is of course just a sensation mixed with a label) that some of these sensations are 'familiar' and must therefore be 'me'. The sensation then gets expansive providing 'confirmation' that it must indeed be 'me' (i.e. if it feels good it must be right).
Obviously I've used speculative words here to describe the illusion, like 'if' and 'must'....because the illusion is exactly that - speculative!
Nice description. And yes, the illusion is speculative.

And how does it FEEL to see that the self is just an illusion and not a real tangible entity?
Is there any doubt? Any? Even a slightest?
(I haven't experienced a 'complete falling away of sense-of-self' or anything like that. But I don't expect to.)
Is there a self to sense?

Is there Chris without a story about Chris?
What drives the story about Chris?
Is Chris here right now?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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