West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

[forgetmenot]

Hey Ado,

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?

The connection between the felt sensation of the hand and the movement of the hand when directly observed were separate but it took a lot of concentration to keep the thoughts telling there was a connection to one side.

Thoughts will always appear with stories and interpretations…but once you get into the practice of observing thoughts instead of following thoughts, it becomes easier to ‘put them to one side’ and eventually stories are seen through almost instantly. As you have noticed, there is a stream of thoughts and sensations, but no “I” you can point to. A thought could come up in this stream, and then a thought may follow and claim that “I-thought it”, but that I-thought would just be another thought in the thought-sensation stream.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?

I had to spend more time on this one but like the above responses it was as if I was looking at a portrait of someone else that wasn’t me. The image can’t and didn’t suggest it was a body or my body it was only thought that suggested that. Going completely on AE there were only colours and shapes. Thought was trying to come in a lot to throw me off but staying with AE of the image in the mirror, which is getting easier to do, there were only colours and shapes. There were some thoughts of like you’re putting on weight you could lose some weight etc etc… but they aren’t sticking as much as they usually would and again just observing them and watching them pass along.

And those thoughts about weight etc are just more thoughts appearing in the thought-sensation stream.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

There are just sensations without thought or mental images telling me otherwise. The main sensation was the soles of my feet on the bathroom floor.

And when you looked…what did you find was the AE of “the soles of my feet on the bathroom floor”?

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?

There are only sensations particularly in the soles of my feet hitting the floor and the stiffness in the legs and ignoring the labeling that thought was coming in with these were all just sensations full stop.

Nice! :)

Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
There is just sensation as there is no body walking as such. It is just sensations happening.

Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
There were just thoughts about walking.

Yes! Nice looking!

Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

When thoughts are completely ignored it is obvious that there is just experiencing and nothing else. Thought will label it as walking or I’m walking or my body is moving but being in the actual experience of the moment there is just experiencing.

There is just experience, as there is no one / no thing that is experiencING. ‘ExperiencING’ is a verb.No verbs could point to what actually IS. Verbs point only to THOUGHTS ABOUT what actually IS.

‘ExperiencING’ (or any verbs) is just a BELIEF.
A belief about TIME.

There is ZERO actual experience of ‘experiencING’.
There is ZERO actual experience of any verb!

There is no such thing as ‘experiencING’, just as there is no such thing as ‘happenING, or ‘seeING’, or ‘knowING’, etc.

So, let’s look at verbs in general. Let’s take a verb ‘experiencING’. For ‘experiencing’ there should be:

1. a separate thing (person = body) an 'experiencER', that is doing or having the ACT of ‘experiencing’
2. a separate thing, an object that is being experienced
3. the ACTION of ‘experiencing’ (as an interACTION between #1 and #2)
4. TIME in which the 'action of ‘experiencing’ unfolds
Without these 4 elements there is NO VERB.
All verbs based on the assumption of the existence of these 4 elements.
Is this clear?

A verb implies not just a doer, but an action in time. A verb is an action, a doing. In order to an action take place not just a doer (in case of an experiencer = person = body) is needed, but time in which the action (the action of experiencing itself between two seeming objects/bodies) unfolds.
Is this clear?

So….on that note…let’s explore the idea of time and then memory.

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on this linear time, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Any actual experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

How long does the ‘now’ last?

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Kay,

Here are my responses to your post.

And

when you looked…what did you find was the AE of “the soles of my feet on the bathroom floor”

?

It was purely just sensation. There was no soles of feet or bathroom floor just sensation.

A

verb implies not just a doer, but an action in time. A verb is an action, a doing. In order to an action take place not just a doer (in case of an experiencer = person = body) is needed, but time in which the action (the action of experiencing itself between two seeming objects/bodies) unfolds.
Is this clear?

Yes I do get that that when it is seen that there is no body and therefore no doer there is just the pure experience and nothing else.

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?

No there is just the ever present moment when thoughts of past future and present are ignored.

Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

I always would have thought this was the case but I can see now that it is just thought that tells me time moved from one moment to the next but there is only this ever lasting moment.

Any actual experience of one event following another?

I can see that all events are in the now but there are lots of thoughts telling me this is rubbish and of course there is a past and present and future otherwise how do you explain the physical body ageing. I'm finding this one difficult to grasp. Or is this again just thought telling this since there is no body as such and therefore how can it age. I need help with this one.

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

It doesn't move at all it just is.

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

Thought will tell me that when I stop and close my eyes to examine the moment that that's when it began and that when I look at my phone to type this response that's when it stops but it's there the whole time isn't it there's no beginning or end to the moment.

How long does the ‘now’ last

?

The now is here continually always and eternal.

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

Again thought will tell me that when I concentrate on the now that's the moment it starts and when I change my focus to something else that's when it ends but it's here always and externally. This is slowly being seen but it isn't really sinking in yet. Not sure if that makes sense.

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

It never becomes the past cos it's always here and now it contains,what thought will tell me, is the past present and future.

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

It is only a thought about the 'past' which is in the now.

So

is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

I can see that there are only thoughts about time but there thoughts are coming thick and fast telling me to quit this and give it up. I'm getting better at observing them and not getting too caught up in them but it feels like I'm a million miles away from seeing through the thought story instantly as you describe your experience to be.
Thanks for your help. I have typed this on my phone so can't use the quote tool properly.


Take Care

Ado

[forgetmenot]

Hello Ado,

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?

No there is just the ever present moment when thoughts of past future and present are ignored.

Can there ever be any other time but the herenow? Is the ‘here’ a place and is the ‘now’ a time or is it referring to THIS/experience exactly as it is?

Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

I always would have thought this was the case but I can see now that it is just thought that tells me time moved from one moment to the next but there is only this ever lasting moment.

Lovely :)

Any actual experience of one event following another?

I can see that all events are in the now but there are lots of thoughts telling me this is rubbish and of course there is a past and present and future otherwise how do you explain the physical body ageing. I'm finding this one difficult to grasp. Or is this again just thought telling this since there is no body as such and therefore how can it age. I need help with this one.

Look into the mirror throughout the day. Body image appears... notice that all that's really there are some colours, and a thought-story saying 'these colours are my body'

When you return to the mirror each time, consider whether these 'body colours' have ever appeared before.

Has this body image + story ever appeared before - or is this the only time you have ever been aware of these *exact* colours and this exact story about the body?

Can you find any previous appearances of the body? Where are they? If not how can it be known that the body has appeared before?

Is the appearance just appearing 'now' with only a thought-story claiming you've seen this body before?

Do that for today and report back what you find.

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

Thought will tell me that when I stop and close my eyes to examine the moment that that's when it began and that when I look at my phone to type this response that's when it stops but it's there the whole time isn't it there's no beginning or end to the moment.

What is “there the whole time”?

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

Again thought will tell me that when I concentrate on the now that's the moment it starts and when I change my focus to something else that's when it ends but it's here always and externally. This is slowly being seen but it isn't really sinking in yet. Not sure if that makes sense.

So what you are saying is that thought postulates the ‘now’ moment begins when your attention is on one thing and that ‘now’ moment passes when your attention moves to something else?

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

It never becomes the past cos it's always here and now it contains,what thought will tell me, is the past present and future.

Lovely

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

It is only a thought about the 'past' which is in the now.

Yes..the thought about the past is arising in this current moment. However, is a thought a thought? Or is experience seemingly appearing as a thought? If you drop the label and meaning of what a thought is…what is it exactly?

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

I can see that there are only thoughts about time but there thoughts are coming thick and fast telling me to quit this and give it up. I'm getting better at observing them and not getting too caught up in them but it feels like I'm a million miles away from seeing through the thought story instantly as you describe your experience to be.

You are doing fantastic….keep it up...you are starting to see how the nature of thought works. It comes in thick and fast telling you all sorts of things...but when you LOOK...you can see it is full of BS! The more you learn to observe thought the easier it gets…and yes, thought will keep telling you to give up, that you will never make it etc. Here is a great clip of a character called Glum who personifies those thoughts perfectly!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqALm_rmM1g

Sending love,
Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,
I have a busy day today doing a workshop in a school then travelling up to Dublin to see my Mum and family so will try and send a post later this evening or tomorrow morning at the latest.

All the best

Ado

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

Apologies for the delay in responding to ur last post. I have extended my stay with my Mum and haven't had a minute to myself. I have been practising the mirror exercise and also I closed my eyes while having a hot towel shave in a barber and focused purely on the sensation and experience while putting thoughts to one side which was interesting. I'll post a more in-depth response tomorrow.

All the best

Ado

[forgetmenot]

No worries, Ado. You are looking throughout your day...and that it the important part :)

Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

I have been up visiting my Mum and brother and sister and their famalies. I have been feeling really good up till today and I am noticing that when the mood is good there are lots of thoughts around resistance with letting go of the story of me but when the mood is low the willingness to get on with looking us much stronger.
Anyhow I'm about to drive back home and I'll post this when I get back.

Has this body image + story ever appeared before - or is this the only time you have ever been aware of these *exact* colours and this exact story about the body?

Of course the body image right before me in this moment has never appeared before exactly as it is now. Another time when I looked in the mirror there was a slightly different shape and different colour depending on what clothes were involved in making up that particular image. And then there are the thought story about the image seen in the mirror which is never the same depending on mood and feelings in that moment.

Can

you find any previous appearances of the body? Where are they? If not how can it be known that the body has appeared before?

There are no other appearances of the body except in memory and thought. If the body has only appeared in thoughts and memories or mental images how can it be known that it appeared before. It can't have when thoughts are put to one side and not believed.

Is

the appearance just appearing 'now' with only a thought-story claiming you've seen this body before?

Yes it is only appearing right in this moment with strong thoughts telling me I've seen it before. Thoughts like you've lost weight put on weight you're getting more grey hair etc etc…. These thoughts all add to the thought story if me being this body.

Do that for today and report back what you find

As my responses indicate there is nothing there in AE to indicate there was a body appearing before this very moment. It is all only the thought story which tells my any different. That thought story is still very strong though but there is a sense that it loosening ever so slightly.

What is “there the whole time”?

Nothing just experience. There is just colour sound taste smell sensation and nothing else.

So what you are saying is that thought postulates the ‘now’ moment begins when your attention is on one thing and that ‘now’ moment passes when your attention moves to something else

?

That's what thought will tell try and convince me of but the moment is just there with no beginning middle or end to it.

Yes

..the thought about the past is arising in this current moment. However, is a thought a thought? Or is experience seemingly appearing as a thought? If you drop the label and meaning of what a thought is…what is it exactly?

Yes it is all just experience and only thought that tries to label experience as something when it just is full stop.

Take Care

Ado

[forgetmenot]

Hey Ado,

I have been up visiting my Mum and brother and sister and their famalies. I have been feeling really good up till today and I am noticing that when the mood is good there are lots of thoughts around resistance with letting go of the story of me but when the mood is low the willingness to get on with looking us much stronger.
Anyhow I'm about to drive back home and I'll post this when I get back.

Yes, suffering has always been the catalyst to find the end of it! If suffering did not happen, then you wouldn’t be here wanting to see through the separate self as a means to end suffering. But in and of itself this means nothing. This is all just happening….a story. There is no one who is seeking enlightenment as what you are does not need enlightening! It doesn’t matter how many times you look, you realise the absence of a separate self…so no amount of suffering is going to change that. It is to see that suffering is appearing but that it is not happening to a someone or something. If you are aware of it then you cannot be in it.

Do that for today and report back what you find

As my responses indicate there is nothing there in AE to indicate there was a body appearing before this very moment. It is all only the thought story which tells my any different. That thought story is still very strong though but there is a sense that it loosening ever so slightly.

So what is the difference between a “very strong thought” and a not very strong thought?
Does one mean more because it SEEMS to be “very strong”?

What is “there the whole time”?

Nothing just experience. There is just colour sound taste smell sensation and nothing else.

Yes. And what is the AE of the mirror?

So what you are saying is that thought postulates the ‘now’ moment begins when your attention is on one thing and that ‘now’ moment passes when your attention moves to something else?

That's what thought will tell try and convince me of but the moment is just there with no beginning middle or end to it.

Thought is not trying to convince anyone of anything. Thought isn’t sitting somewhere contemplating how to trap you into believing something! Where exactly is this ‘you’ that thought is trying to convince?

Thought is not what thought describes itself as. A thought isn't known because of its appearance or its content...it is known because it is THIS/experience. Watch how noticing is prior to thinking. Thought is part of what is noticed.


Past and memory go hand-in-hand as almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened; that a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

Please don’t go to thought explanation, but just let a memory be there, and look at it.

What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

WHEN does the memory actually appear?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about the past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is a difference, how is that difference known exactly?

Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say… but what actually is.

Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

I'm noticing that I'm using food as an a way to disconnect from the inquiry and trying to focus on your questions and my responses and just noticing the thoughts as they appear. Some days this is harder to do than others and today was one of those days. Also my back is weak and causing pain. I'm having to remind myself to see the pain as just another sensation and not adding a woah is me story to it.

So

what is the difference between a “very strong thought” and a not very strong thought?
Does one mean more because it SEEMS to be “very strong”?

Thanks for pointing this out to me and of course all thoughts are just thoughts a "very strong thought" is just another thought. Thoughts can't be strong or weak they are just appearing and passing through.

Yes

. And what is the AE of the mirror?

The mirror is just another image or colour or a display and nothing more.

What

is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?

Memory is just another thought which will be followed by more thoughts which were assumed before now to be a fact or memory of something that actually happened.
Memory is made of a thought and more thoughts follow on and thoughts come in what was assumed until now to be a sequence of a memory of something that happened. These thoughts may contain images but again these are also thoughts.

What

is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

Usually a memory thought contains an image of the event that is being remembered while a general thought may or may not contain an image. Memory thoughts can also be quickly followed by a feeling or sensation associated with the memory thought depending on the event being remembered. But essentially they are all just thoughts arising and falling away with nothing distinguishing one thought from another.

WHEN does the memory actually appear

?

It doesn't appear it is only a thought of a memory which is also just another thought that appears.

How

is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

It isn't known that it's a memory of something that has happened it is only another thought or image that thought will tell us is familiar or known to me.
If I look at a photo/image of myself and my ex wife on our wedding day that triggers memory thoughts of that day. But they are all just more thoughts and images appearing in the eternal now aren't they. Thought will tell me that the photograph is proof that the wedding happened and that image was taken on the day etc etc … but they are all still just thoughts and are not part of what's happening this very moment.

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of

?

A future thought is just more thought and usually either fearful thoughts like money worries or job security or will I find a partner or fantasy thoughts about winning the lotto living in a nicer house etc etc....Essentially future thoughts are just made up of thoughts and nothing else.

WHEN does the future thought appear

?

It can appear at anytime there's no rhyme or reason to it.

What

is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

Again there is no difference except maybe like a past memory thought there could be more emotion/sensation that comes along with the thoughts depending on whether they are fearful future thoughts or fantasy future thoughts.

How

is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

It can't be known because the thoughts are imagined situations and any images that may be part of the future thoughts aren't recognised as images seen before maybe.


Then

let’s compare a thought about the past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is a difference, how is that difference known exactly?

I can't see any difference except that thought will tell me that recognised images of the past appearing as thoughts are proof that these events happened like the photo example I mentioned above. While future thoughts usually involving something that's about to happen like an exam coming up or a job interview. But all thoughts appear in the here and now and have no bearing on the past or the future they are just thoughts arising and falling away in the now.

Not sure if any of that makes sense.

All the best.

Ado

[forgetmenot]

Hello Ado,

I'm noticing that I'm using food as an a way to disconnect from the inquiry and trying to focus on your questions and my responses and just noticing the thoughts as they appear. Some days this is harder to do than others and today was one of those days. Also my back is weak and causing pain. I'm having to remind myself to see the pain as just another sensation and not adding a woah is me story to it.

How wonderful to be aware of this. Once you become aware of something..that is half the battle won, so to speak. In this moment a choice arises and ‘you’ can choose to either follow using the food to disconnect or to look at it. Is there a sensation/feeling that arises that takes you away from the inquiry to go eat food instead? Notice this…and let me know what you find.

And it’s really great that you are reminding yourself that the pain is simply sensation plus thoughts about the pain and no adding the whoa is me! That is really great to hear! If the need to see a doctor about the pain arises, then do that. There is no need to be stoic about pain and think that it has to be lived with...so to speak.

So what is the difference between a “very strong thought” and a not very strong thought?
Does one mean more because it SEEMS to be “very strong”?

Thanks for pointing this out to me and of course all thoughts are just thoughts a "very strong thought" is just another thought. Thoughts can't be strong or weak they are just appearing and passing through.

Yes :)

Yes . And what is the AE of the mirror?

The mirror is just another image or colour or a display and nothing more.

Yes, exactly. How can colour reflect an image of a me?!

What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?

Memory is just another thought which will be followed by more thoughts which were assumed before now to be a fact or memory of something that actually happened.
Memory is made of a thought and more thoughts follow on and thoughts come in what was assumed until now to be a sequence of a memory of something that happened. These thoughts may contain images but again these are also thoughts.

Yes, and when you see this how does it make you feel?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

Usually a memory thought contains an image of the event that is being remembered while a general thought may or may not contain an image. Memory thoughts can also be quickly followed by a feeling or sensation associated with the memory thought depending on the event being remembered. But essentially they are all just thoughts arising and falling away with nothing distinguishing one thought from another.

General thoughts and memory thoughts are simply thought. There is no difference. It is only a thought that says they are different and one is more significant than another.

How is it known that a so called ‘memory’ thought activates a sensation?
What exactly does that link appear to be?

1) Imagine holding sensation in the right hand and thought in the left hand.
Does thought, on the one hand, and sensation, on the other, know about each other? Is there a link between the two?

2) Imagine sensation and thought are resting on either side of a pair of scales. When sensation is looked at it gets heavier. When thought is looked at it gets heavier.
Is it possible to look at both thought and sensation at the same time to balance the scales?

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

It isn't known that it's a memory of something that has happened it is only another thought or image that thought will tell us is familiar or known to me.

If I look at a photo/image of myself and my ex wife on our wedding day that triggers memory thoughts of that day. But they are all just more thoughts and images appearing in the eternal now aren't they. Thought will tell me that the photograph is proof that the wedding happened and that image was taken on the day etc etc … but they are all still just thoughts and are not part of what's happening this very moment.

Yes…nice! :) How is it known that you have an ex-wife in this moment? Is the colour labelled as ‘ex-wife’ in your direct actual experience right now? If not, then it is only thoughts about an ex-wife. Let’s say even, for example, that she was visiting you but was not in your awareness right now (she is in another room), is colour labelled as ‘ex-wife’ in your direct actual experience right at the moment? No. So it would still be thoughts about colour labelled as ex-wife.

This is a great analogy of how all time is contained in an instant.
In the opening instant of a dream you find the 1st person dream character speeding along a highway towards the airport, because he is late for his holiday flight, because his wife couldn't find her passport.
Now you will notice that this is just the opening instant of the dream, yet it contains a whole "history" of being a person who is an adult and is married to a woman who left her passport behind, etc. It contains "memories" of having the drama with the lost passport, and it has a whole imaginary future too, in the flight and the holiday.
Do you see the analogy that is being drawn?

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of?

A future thought is just more thought and usually either fearful thoughts like money worries or job security or will I find a partner or fantasy thoughts about winning the lotto living in a nicer house etc etc....Essentially future thoughts are just made up of thoughts and nothing else.

Future thoughts are always based on past thoughts. You can do the following inquiry around those type of thoughts..or any thought for that matter. So, I would like you to do the inquiry on one of those ‘fears’ you mentioned above and let me know how you go.

'Do I actually KNOW this right now?'
That is a question to ask to help in LOOKING.

LOOKING is about seeing what is actually appearing/happening now. This means LOOKING without taking anything ‘from the past’ as knowing anything in this instant.

So, for example, the idea of anxiety seems to be appearing. Close your eyes and ask:-

- 'What do I know right now?'
- 'I’m feeling anxious about driving my car and having an accident’
- 'Do I actually KNOW that right now?'
- 'No, I am just sitting with my eyes closed and feeling anxious’
- ‘Do I actually KNOW that right now?’
- 'No, I am just feeling anxious’
- 'Do I actually KNOW that right now?'
- 'No, There is just sensation in the body'
- 'Do I actually KNOW that right now?'
- ‘No, there is pressure, blackness and vibration’.
- ‘Do I actually KNOW that right now?’
- ‘No.’

Just keep asking questions until you come to what is actually known. LOOKING isn't hard to do. Just look at what you actually KNOW right now.

WHEN does the future thought appear

It can appear at anytime there's no rhyme or reason to it.

It can only appear in the moment it appears ie the current moment. And even that isn’t quite right.

Thought is not what thought describes itself as. Thought divides experience into, and labels them as sound AND smell AND taste AND sensation AND colour AND thought. If you drop the labels…all there is, is THIS/experience appearing exactly as it is. A thought isn't known because of its appearance or its content...it is known because it is THIS/experience.

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

Again there is no difference except maybe like a past memory thought there could be more emotion/sensation that comes along with the thoughts depending on whether they are fearful future thoughts or fantasy future thoughts.

And how is that known – that “there could be more emotion/sensation that comes along with the thoughts depending on whether they are fearful future thoughts or fantasy future thoughts”?

And without thought, how is it known that one thought is more fearful than another?

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

It can't be known because the thoughts are imagined situations and any images that may be part of the future thoughts aren't recognised as images seen before maybe.

How can there be “images seen before”? That points to time. Without thought, how could it possibly be known that something has been seen before?

Then let’s compare a thought about the past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is a difference, how is that difference known exactly?

I can't see any difference except that thought will tell me that recognised images of the past appearing as thoughts are proof that these events happened like the photo example I mentioned above. While future thoughts usually involving something that's about to happen like an exam coming up or a job interview. But all thoughts appear in the here and now and have no bearing on the past or the future they are just thoughts arising and falling away in the now.

Yes…and it’s good to remember this! Do the “do I actually know this right now” exercise on these type of thoughts as well!

Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,
I've had a very hectic day today and I'll post a response tomorrow morning.

Take Care

Ado

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

I've been busy with the girls but I've been looking a lot and here are my responses.

How

wonderful to be aware of this. Once you become aware of something..that is half the battle won, so to speak. In this moment a choice arises and ‘you’ can choose to either follow using the food to disconnect or to look at it. Is there a sensation/feeling that arises that takes you away from the inquiry to go eat food instead? Notice this…and let me know what you find.

What I'm seeing is that there a lack of willingness to sit with stillness and a resistance to letting go of old habits. It's as if the more looking that is done the more thoughts of resistance arise. From the looking I've done so far I know that resistance is just thoughts about resistance which does help to break the cycle. I have noticed in the last few days that there is more stillness there and the more stillness that's noticed the more I am drawn to it. I'm reminding myself a lot that I'm not my thoughts and focusing on sensations and so on.


Yes

exactly. How can colour reflect an image of a me?!

It can't it is just colour and doesn't know anything about a me at all.

Yes

, and when you see this how does it make you feel?

On an intellectual level I can this and it makes sense but I'm not really in touch with the enormity of what this means i.e… if there is no memory of a past or history of a me was there ever a me in the first place or rather was there ever anything else but experience with a me structure layered over it…
Right now I don't feel anything but I'm aware of thoughts telling me I should be feeling lots of grief and sadness…. And loss…

How is it known that a so called ‘memory’ thought activates a sensation?
What exactly does that link appear to be

?

It isn't known in actual experience it is a only a thought that makes that link but sometimes it can happen so quickly or automatically it can feel like there is link.

1)

Imagine holding sensation in the right hand and thought in the left hand.
Does thought, on the one hand, and sensation, on the other, know about each other? Is there a link between the two?

There is no connection/link between thought and sensation without thought telling me there is. They both just appear in experience full stop.

2)

Imagine sensation and thought are resting on either side of a pair of scales. When sensation is looked at it gets heavier. When thought is looked at it gets heavier.
Is it possible to look at both thought and sensation at the same time to balance the scales?

Going purely on AE they are both just there in experience and isn't it only thought that tells me that there is an I that can focus on thought or sensation and therefore one can see heavier than the other. I'm not sure about this one maybe you can clarify it for me.

Can

you see the analogy that is being drawn?

Yes I can see that analogy that there character in the dreams whole history and future is being experienced in that glimpse we have of his life in the dream. Is there a point you're making that in that moment he is driving on motarway all there is in his experience and that there details of his past and future are only in his thought process.

So,

for example, the idea of anxiety seems to be appearing. Close your eyes and ask:-

- 'What do I know right now?'
- 'I’m feeling anxious about driving my car and having an accident’
- 'Do I actually KNOW that right now?'
- 'No, I am just sitting with my eyes closed and feeling anxious’
- ‘Do I actually KNOW that right now?’
- 'No, I am just feeling anxious’
- 'Do I actually KNOW that right now?'
- 'No, There is just sensation in the body'
- 'Do I actually KNOW that right now?'
- ‘No, there is pressure, blackness and vibration’.
- ‘Do I actually KNOW that right now?’
- ‘No.’

Just keep asking questions until you come to what is actually known. LOOKING isn't hard to do. Just look at what you actually KNOW right now.

I did this exercise around a post I'd put up on our what's app group in work that got no responses. I was concerned that what I'd put up was inappropriate and was worried about being judged by my colleagues. It is a great exercise to really get down to the nitty gritty of what is actually here right now. The fear and anxiety turned out to be a knot in my tummy which on further inquiry was a very mild sensation that thought was latching onto and making it into a much bigger deal altogether. Essentially there was nothing there in actual experience.

And how is that known – that “there could be more emotion/sensation that comes along with the thoughts depending on whether they are fearful future thoughts or fantasy future thoughts”

?

It isn't known at all it is only thought that tells me this. Without thought there is just purely experience and nothing else. There may well be sensations in experience and taste and smell and touch which thought always tries to interpret. And when thought is just observed in and part of experience nothing needs to be done but just be.

And without thought, how is it known that one thought is more fearful than another?

Exactly it isn't it's only thought that tries to interpret thought itself which again up to now has always linked itself to an I thought which was assumed was who I am.

How can there be “images seen before”? That points to time. Without thought, how could it possibly be known that something has been seen before

?

Of course it is only thought that tells me it has seen these images before. It is only thought that tells me time is linear and there's a past present and future. There is a good understanding that content of thought is not real but it still isn't hitting me on a deep level.

All the best

Ado

[forgetmenot]

Hey Ado,

How wonderful to be aware of this. Once you become aware of something..that is half the battle won, so to speak. In this moment a choice arises and ‘you’ can choose to either follow using the food to disconnect or to look at it. Is there a sensation/feeling that arises that takes you away from the inquiry to go eat food instead? Notice this…and let me know what you find.

What I'm seeing is that there a lack of willingness to sit with stillness and a resistance to letting go of old habits. It's as if the more looking that is done the more thoughts of resistance arise. From the looking I've done so far I know that resistance is just thoughts about resistance which does help to break the cycle. I have noticed in the last few days that there is more stillness there and the more stillness that's noticed the more I am drawn to it. I'm reminding myself a lot that I'm not my thoughts and focusing on sensations and so on.

How can what is already happening be resisted exactly? You can't resist what already is!
Where exactly is this “I” that is resisting “letting go of old habits”?

You are wanting what is termed as ‘behaviour’ to change instead of seeing that there is no one/no thing that has behaviours, or that needs anything to change. You are wanting thoughts to change so that the story changes and if the story changes there is the idea that reactions/behaviours will change. The idea that one thing causes another. There is no author of thought, if there were, then you would be able to change the story. But you can’t, so that only further confirms that there is no thinker of thought! And even if story could be changed, that doesn’t mean that behaviour/reactions will change because thoughts are not the triggers for actions/behaviours.

To resolve this you don’t need to get rid of the ‘person’, or thoughts. Thinking is just fine. Stories show up not because of me but about the ‘me’—the character.
Simply see that resistance is resistance, not an entity resisting. Contraction feels like resistance (and suffering) only if it is not allowed to be felt fully. That rejection, denial, avoidance, saying no to a feeling, saying not now- is not an entity, but a sensation. Unpleasant, unwanted, but without names and stories about resistance, unpleasant and unwanted - it’s just a raw sensation.

Yes, and when you see this how does it make you feel?

On an intellectual level I can this and it makes sense but I'm not really in touch with the enormity of what this means i.e… if there is no memory of a past or history of a me was there ever a me in the first place or rather was there ever anything else but experience with a me structure layered over it…
Right now I don't feel anything but I'm aware of thoughts telling me I should be feeling lots of grief and sadness…. And loss…

And why should you be feeling lots of grief and sadness and loss? Why not joy, freedom and relief? Have you really sat with it and just noticed what feelings appear instead of the idea of what SHOULD be felt?


Stop waiting for thought to tell you what is and what isn't.

How is it known that a so called ‘memory’ thought activates a sensation?
What exactly does that link appear to be?

It isn't known in actual experience it is a only a thought that makes that link but sometimes it can happen so quickly or automatically it can feel like there is link.

Really, and how does a link actually feel?

Again...you are waiting for thought to tell you there is no link and that you have SEEN...hooray! LOOK and LOOK again. Do the work (ie do the LOOKING...stop believing thought)...it isn't going to do itself!

1) Imagine holding sensation in the right hand and thought in the left hand.
Does thought, on the one hand, and sensation, on the other, know about each other? Is there a link between the two?
There is no connection/link between thought and sensation without thought telling me there is. They both just appear in experience full stop.

Yes, so it is to see this when they seemingly appear as if they are linked. Thought isn’t going to stop suggesting they aren’t linked! You have seen they aren't linked...so stop following thought. Thought isn't going to change its story to suit your hopes/desires/needs. It's up to you to question what thought is saying...not the other way round!

2) Imagine sensation and thought are resting on either side of a pair of scales. When sensation is looked at it gets heavier. When thought is looked at it gets heavier.

Is it possible to look at both thought and sensation at the same time to balance the scales?
Going purely on AE they are both just there in experience and isn't it only thought that tells me that there is an I that can focus on thought or sensation and therefore one can see heavier than the other. I'm not sure about this one maybe you can clarify it for me.

How about you sit with the exercise and LOOK and see what is being pointed at. When you pay attention to the sensation only…what happens? When you pay attention to thoughts only…what happens? Are you aware of both at the same time?

Can you see the analogy that is being drawn?

Yes I can see that analogy that there character in the dreams whole history and future is being experienced in that glimpse we have of his life in the dream. Is there a point you're making that in that moment he is driving on motarway all there is in his experience and that there details of his past and future are only in his thought process.

All that is happening in that very moment of him driving on the motorway…is all that is happening/appearing. Everything else is the story about ‘his’ seeming life and the lead up to the driving on the motorway and the purpose of it. Where can you find any of that in AE? All that is, in that moment is driving on the motorway. And even that isn't happening when you break that down into AE.

Just keep asking questions until you come to what is actually known. LOOKING isn't hard to do. Just look at what you actually KNOW right now.

I did this exercise around a post I'd put up on our what's app group in work that got no responses. I was concerned that what I'd put up was inappropriate and was worried about being judged by my colleagues. It is a great exercise to really get down to the nitty gritty of what is actually here right now. The fear and anxiety turned out to be a knot in my tummy which on further inquiry was a very mild sensation that thought was latching onto and making it into a much bigger deal altogether. Essentially there was nothing there in actual experience.

All that was there was a sensation.
And “do I actually know that right now”
No. As sensation is just a label too.
All that is there is THIS appearing exactly as it is.

And how is that known – that “there could be more emotion/sensation that comes along with the thoughts depending on whether they are fearful future thoughts or fantasy future thoughts”?

It isn't known at all it is only thought that tells me this. Without thought there is just purely experience and nothing else. There may well be sensations in experience and taste and smell and touch which thought always tries to interpret. And when thought is just observed in and part of experience nothing needs to be done but just be.

Okay…so you have this intellectually…so now you need to apply it. It is like learning the ABC. When you learned the ABC you then had to apply it to learn to read. This is no different. Start to apply what you are learning instead of waiting and wanting something to change. Without application, nothing will change.

Instead of going "but thought says this and thought says that and therefore I have only gotten it intellectually because nothing is changing and I am not perceiving it differently"….actually apply the knowledge and say instead, "that it is only a thought" and then let the thought pass on by. Start to apply what you are learning in this exploration.

And without thought, how is it known that one thought is more fearful than another?

Exactly it isn't it's only thought that tries to interpret thought itself which again up to now has always linked itself to an I thought which was assumed was who I am.

Okay, so each time you LOOK, you see that there is an absence of a separate self. What more are you looking for…ie what more do you want?

How can there be “images seen before”? That points to time. Without thought, how could it possibly be known that something has been seen before?

Of course it is only thought that tells me it has seen these images before. It is only thought that tells me time is linear and there's a past present and future. There is a good understanding that content of thought is not real but it still isn't hitting me on a deep level.

No, because you aren’t apply what you are seeing (the insights). When you learned to swim…did you not have to apply and practice swimming for it to become second nature? This is no different. Start to apply what you have realised! There is no magic wand…you have to do the work by applying what you have seen so far!

Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,
Thanks for your post I have the girls till this evening and I'll respond then.

Take Care

Ado

[Clashnacrona]

Kay,

Thanks for your insights it have me a lot to work on and I have been really busy action. A great friend of mine who had an awakening a year ago and who has been a great support to me since the separation called over yesterday evening. A short while into his visit there was a real stillness noticed and exactly like the incident in the restaurant a while back there was a sense of total peace and joy and lots of tears came with that. There was a total sense of pure experience with no self present whatsoever. Everything seemed to be connected to a profound sense of peace and stillness. It was like In sensed the peace and stillness in my friend which almost acted as a catalyst to recognising that I was also part of that same stillness or experience. It was an exquisitely beautiful moment and yet at the same time there was awareness of thought coming in with a commentary but the thoughts were very faint and far away and were easily seen through.
Awareness of that stillness and peace was there up to miss morning today. At one point I walked out into my back yard to put some stuff on the compost pile and there was an immense and total sense of oneness with everything around me. There grass that was being walked on the birds singing the wind was all part of one and the same experience.
After reading your post I saw clearly that I needed to just put my money where my mouth is and put the insights I've had into practise and that willingness and sensing my friends profound stillness seemed to be the catalyst for what followed. There's definitely a bit of yo yoing happening but that's ok. There has been a shift in perception where thoughts just can't be believed anymore which is just phenomenal. Thank you so much for your guidance and commitment up to today.I'm very grateful. I know I've lots more work to do but there are profound shifts in perception happening and I'm going to keep following through with the looking and investigating.
I'll respond to your questions properly in the next day or two. I'm working tomorrow Tuesday and Wednesday morning so will put up a post by Wednesday evening at the latest.

All the best

Ado