Stuck in the mud

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

I agree with your summary of where I am currently.

Play with these two poles - direct experience and "me" belief.

During the quiet time I could find no self in direct experience. I sat for a while watching thoughts, bodily sensations and the senses. After a while I became aware of the repeating sentence "there is no self" and then I notice the thought that a 'me' was repeating this. But this was not true, as it was just a thought all be it a repeating thought and it was a belief in the thought that created another thought that this was a separate 'me'. This had to be nothing more than a belief, so I returned to just sitting quietly, watching thoughts, bodily sensations and the senses. And then a 'me' thought said "something dramatic must happen for you to really no this". But again this was just thought setting up a belief in a 'me' creating this, which was not true as it was a thought and I no thoughts just arise, there is no 'me' directing them. So it is nothing more than a belief created by a thought.

Best wishes
Diane

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

Great work!

it was a belief in the thought that created another thought that this was a separate 'me'. This had to be nothing more than a belief

It is this belief that we are now homing in on.

When conditions are right, it is clear that there is no self to be found in direct experience - this is half the work done, very good!

The other half of the work is to look into this belief that still arises - there is still more to do here.

This is a continuation and deepening of what you did last time. It is best to start, as you did before, by putting aside some quiet time, grounding your awareness in direct experience, and confirming again that no self can be found in direct experience.

If you find that you can sit quietly for the time you've put aside, noting direct experience, and you find at no point that the 'belief' experience arises, then great! That is all helping to establish a deeper familiarity with direct experience.

However, usually, at some point, the belief will arise again.... When this happens, these are the things to look out for:

• Do you notice exactly how the belief is created as it arises? There will be a sequence of events that take place as this happens, a series of thoughts, sensations, feelings... they will be subtle, quick, and easy to miss, but now you've been primed to look out for them, there is a good chance you'll notice how the belief is constructed.
• Once the belief has arisen, what is it made up of and sustained? What sensations, what thought content sustain this experience of 'belief'?
• Before long, no doubt you'll find that direct experience is re-established, and it is again obvious that no self can be found in direct experience ... so how did the 'belief' pass? Is there a series of thoughts, feelings and sensations involved? Does it just suddenly 'pop'?

Best wishes,

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

During the exercise which I did several times, I noticed thoughts that "willed actions come from thought, that thought was driving the willed action". There were burning sensations travelling along my legs and feelings of unease that the thought was in control which intensified the unease.

The thoughts and unease were sustained by the belief that I was wrong to believe that willed actions just arise, that I had been mistaken even though I was so sure yesterday during the exercise that willed action is not controlled by self. Disappointment and unease continued until I became aware that this was a 'thought' and I returned to the sensations in the body. The belief passed but when I established direct experience after a while another thought arose about a child and an adult drifting away. That is all I can remember.

Best wishes
Diane

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

OK, good work.

[...] I became aware that this was a 'thought' and I returned to the sensations in the body

I'd like to draw particular attention to this ... it is a very good answer to the question: how does 'self belief' come to an end? The key is to notice thought as thought, upon which it is natural for attention to return to direct experience. Do you recognise this process?

Let's see if we can get more clarity about what is going on at the 'other end', when self-view takes over....

To help work with this, let's first find out how to trigger the eruption of self-view. I can't tell you exactly what will work, but you can experiment, or you might even know straight away.... so is there a particular thought, reflection or memory that you know will kick off the habitual belief in self?

Once there is a reliable way to trigger it, you can put some quiet time aside, attend to direct experience, and once it is again clear that there is no self to be found in direct experience, watch carefully what happens when self-view is triggered.

It will probably all happen rather quickly, but do you spot the steps that unfold to create the experience of self-belief?

Best wishes,

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

watch carefully what happens when self-view is triggered.

The trigger I used was the thought "You haven't made progress because nothing dramatic has happened, so therefore there is still a 'self' in control of thoughts". This thought is alarming because how can it be true when I know I have made progress. But the thought gives rise to a lowering of mood a feeling of being down. That gives rise to another thought "I can't stop the thought or the feeling down and therefore the self is in control".

The thoughts create the experience of self belief.

It has taken a while to do this exercise and I am not sure where I am with it. So I will stop now and maybe have another go tomorrow.

Best wishes
Diane

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

OK give it another go when you are ready.

Of course you'll need to "reset" back to direct experience each time too - all good practice!

Best wishes

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

watch carefully what happens when self-view is triggered.

"You can't do this. You are not clever enough, you always fail".

A series of thoughts arose which turned into a loud voice in my head. There were tingling and burning sensations in my lower limbs. Then sadness and a heaviness in my upper body. These thoughts turned into a story which I drifted off into. Something brought me back, although I am not sure what. I just became aware of sitting in the chair feeling down and upset and so returned to the sensations in my body. It was a very unpleasant experience.

I conclude that critical thoughts about myself I believe to be true, because a loud voice is saying them in my head which I think is not said by me but another 'self'. But it can only be more thoughts.

Best wishes
Diane

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

Well done, that took some courage.

It was a very unpleasant experience.

OK, that certainly comes across in what you wrote. I take it that these kinds of experiences are familiar, though, and that these thoughts / feelings erupt habitually during day-to-day life too?

It strikes me that there is more going on in this case than just the arising of self-view .... there are also emotional issues tied up with those harsh judgements. We can work with these challenging experiences - they do 'contain' the self-view we are looking into - but of course, it will not always be very comfortable. A gentler approach would be to work on the emotional issues outside LU first, for example with a psychological approach (eg "Feeding your Demons") or through a meditation practices like mettabhavana.

However, assuming you feel sufficiently robust, I suggest that it is worth exploring here some more. In my experience there is an important difference between what happens when these thoughts/feelings taking over unbidden during day-to-day life, and what goes on when they are deliberately triggered.

When triggering something like this deliberately, the observing mind is prepared, and either the thoughts never entirely take over (they are recognised as thoughts), or at least, it is much easier and quicker to 'recover' back to direct experience afterwards. Each time, they are seen a little more deeply for what they are, and they become a little less compelling. So although one might assume that, by triggering experiences like this, they are being somehow reinforced, in practice, they are being seen through and weakened.

So, for example, this time round you learned:

critical thoughts about myself I believe to be true, because a loud voice is saying them in my head [...] it can only be more thoughts.

Yes! Very good.

So perhaps this time, this was only clear afterwards ... but next time, this knowledge will accompany the investigation, and it may be obvious while the thoughts arise that they are, indeed, no more than thoughts, that there is no 'self' driving them, that they will simply arise and pass, and do not require any response.

So it seems to me that this is a fruitful area to work, that important learning and understanding is arising from looking here, and that by taking this learning back into the same area, more will be seen and learned.

However, given that the experiences involved are so unpleasant, you need to consider whether you are comfortable continuing to work here. I do not want to push you beyond what you feel able to face.

Best wishes,

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

Thank you for your very kind and thoughtful reply.

You are right in that these thoughts and feelings erupt habitually during day-to-day life. I also agree that there is more going on than just the arising of self-view, that these are also emotional issues tied up with those harsh judgements.

I would like us to carry on working with these challenging experiences however uncomfortable they get. I have tried over the years, including years of mettabhavana meditation and therapy but with only limited success. The work we have been doing with direct experience, although the most challenging, is working. I am very pleased with the progress I have made. Sometimes just posting that it has been difficult helps me bounce back.

You have guided me skilfully and always when you push me and it is difficult, I do get there in the end. In earlier posts when I had anxiety for several days and we were looking at thoughts, I remember reporting back how one morning in the kitchen that my thoughts were racing and even though I felt awful, in the midst of this I clearly saw that there was no way that a ‘self’ was directing the thoughts. Similarly with hearing when I woke early in the morning and heard the bird song and I knew I was ‘just hearing’. I felt such joy. Recently when we have been examining willed actions and I couldn’t quite get it, you suggested I wait before repeating the sentence. While waiting I spontaneously spun my chair round and round and I new for sure that there was no way a ‘self’ had directed this.

When you pointed out the imaginary ‘self’ has been a bully in the past, I saw this clearly. In the past if this was pointed out to me there was very little I could do. Whereas now I see it more clearly and have a way to work with it. All that I have learned from the work we have done has given me confidence and I have seen through a lot of the illusion. I never managed to get this far in the past even after years of trying.

I would also thank you for all your help, which has already made a huge difference to my life and I am sure I can go further. So I am certainly robust and ready to carry on.

Best wishes
Diane

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

Thanks for that - I am glad you're keen to continue, in spite of the discomfort!

It may not seem very creative, but I would suggest giving the same exercise a third go, with a slightly different emphasis, this time, because I believe this exercise is still yielding new learning.

The slightly different emphasis this time is to

• pay particular attention to the very earliest experiences when triggering, and
• see how long it is possible to maintain a direct experience of what is going on - it may even be possible to maintain direct experience throughout, since each time, you are a bit more familiar with what to expect

So as before, put aside some quiet time, and ground awareness in direct experience first.

At some point, when it feels appropriate, turn attention, with utmost alertness, to the thought/memory/feeling that normally triggers this eruption, and notice as much as possible about exactly what unfolds.

Note that there is no need to encourage the eruption beyond just triggering it. Instead, by recognising thought as thought, feeling as feeling and sensation as sensation, it may well fizzle out rather sooner than usual.

See what you can find out about exactly how this works!

Best wishes,

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

I bring to mind a heavy feeling of unease with thoughts “that it will not change, that it will always be this way”. The unease is about not knowing what will happen and if I will be able to deal with this unease. I don’t want to be feeling the heaviness in my body and the unease in my mind. Because I cannot stop it, I believe it to be a ‘self’ causing this unpleasantness. I want to distract myself to make it stop, but this increases the unpleasant thoughts. I am not sure but there is an interruption, an awareness of what is happening, as apposed to being caught up in what is happening. I notice that I am holding my breath.

I did manage to mostly stay with direct experience while doing this exercise. Not recognizing that it was the feelings of unease arising and wanting to push this away that gave rise to an explanation of a ‘self’. The thoughts around this added to this sense of ‘self’ because I didn’t recognize them as just thoughts. I believed that the loud thoughts were in control rather than that they were just thoughts. This kept the belief in a ‘self’ alive.

Best wishe
Diane

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

Apologies, I have been rather under the weather the last few days, and finding it difficult to focus for long enough to reply properly

I will be in touch again soon,

P

[DianeSt]

HinPerry

Thanks for letting me know. Hope you feel better soon.

Best wishes
Diane

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

Sorry for the long hiatus, and thanks for your patience.... Let's pick things up again!

It has been such a while, I'm not quite sure where to start!

Is there anything you would like to bring in? If not, I could either go back and see if there is a thread to pick up on again.

Sometimes it can also be good just to start with a clean sheet, and see what comes up.....

If you don't have a strong feeling about it, that's fine, I'll cook something up :-)

Best wishes,

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

Thank you for picking up again.

How about starting with a clean sheet and see what comes up. Although, I am not sure what that means but I am drawn to that approach. Could you kick start this.

Thanks

Best wishes
Diane