Looking for guide :)

[Vivien]

Dear Pete,

How to see expectations as only thoughts and not believe them? Should I spend a lot of time on this?

It seems that you try to control or grasp this process.

Is there a ‘you’ or a ‘thing’ that could make believing or not believing happen?
Or believing or not believing stories just happens by ‘themselves’?

Ok. I still think there should be a way to differentiate believing that no self has been (self-delusion out of want to get the possible benefits of seeing there is no self) seen and real seeing. However, I am willing to put this away for now.

Good. This is just another form of grasping it intellectually.

Meaninglessness, apathy, mental breakdown, depression, loss of motivation
I may drop out of college, retract from social life, become depressed, not being able to take care of myself because of loss of motivation

So the fear is ABOUT this story and it’s not about what is actually happening. This is just thoughts believed and not seen only as arising thoughts.

Fear is not to be feared or even avoided; fear is our friend! It has many uses! It prevents us from walking off cliffs and from engaging in life-threatening exercises. But fear is not limited to protecting us from real danger; it also attempts to protect us from imaginary danger. The key is to look for what it is protecting!

When fear arises as we walk near a high cliff, what is being protected is the body. If the body should fall, and be broken, its life might cease, so fear attempts to protect the body from death.

But when fear arises as we search for a separate entity "self", what is being protected other than the belief in a "self"? "Self" is not an actual entity and cannot be harmed.

Would be nice to know how much time I’m expected to invest into these questions.

As often as thoughts arise saying to do it. Investigation can go on wherever you are, whatever you do. While eating, cleaning, washing teeth, driving, walking, waking up, falling asleep, having conversation with others, typing the answer to these questions. Every moment is an opportunity to look.

Yes, I believe it can. A thought may or may not be true. It is true of it correlates with DE. Some statements are hard to deny, like this one: “something exists”. It can be verified in DE.
Another way to understand your question could be: can a thought itself be the thing it is about? Besides the thought “this is a thought” this will not be possible.

Before going to the content of thoughts, let’s have a deeper look on thoughts in general. Sit for about 15 minutes and investigate these questions:

Where thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
What is the thinker of thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?

Is there an 'I' that has ownership of thoughts?
What do the thoughts belong to? What owns them?

Do you think thoughts or you are just being thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

Please go through these questions and answer ALL of them one-by-one. Don’t miss any. Take your time.

Love, Vivien

[Pete777]

Is there a ‘you’ or a ‘thing’ that could make believing or not believing happen?

Haven’t found this me in DE that believes or does not believe in the self. Is it a me? Well, it could exist outside DE, but I don’t know if it really does.

Or believing or not believing stories just happens by ‘themselves’?

Yes, this seems to be the case

Where thoughts come from?

Thoughts just show up

Where are they going?

Thoughts just disappear

Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

Not sure. But Haven’t managed to do it.

Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?

Hmm. When relaxing I can’t know what the next thought will be. But if I “manipulating” it, it can be predicted. I can f. ex say this: the next thought will be “car” – and then the next thought is “car”

Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

No, or it can seem that way, because the inner commentary isn’t viewed as thoughts. But sometimes it is seen that this too is thought, and it’s not chosen.

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?

I Can’t find nothing but thoughts and sensations. I can’t find an I doing it in DE.

“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?

I don’t know – some sensations in the head comes to attention, but these can’t be the I. It’s an assumption, but the I can’t be found.

What is the thinker of thoughts?

I don’t know – not found in DE

Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?

no

Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

yes, this could be. But the I thought seems very real – not like just a thought.

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?

Don’t know. Some thoughts can be repeated for long periods of time. Is there an I doing it? Don’t know, can’t find it.

Is there an 'I' that has ownership of thoughts?

Lol – there is thoughts – but an owner of them seems ridiculous atm. :p

What do the thoughts belong to? What owns them?

lol – what owns thoughts – I don’t know. Seems weird for there to be something that owns thoughts.

Do you think thoughts or you are just being thought?

Resistance to saying that “I” am just a thought. But at least I can’t find the I outside thought.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

No, I don’t think so. Haven’t been able to do it.

[Vivien]

Dear Pete,

Haven’t found this me in DE that believes or does not believe in the self. Is it a me?

So the question is about whether is there a self that could be me???
Is there an assumption about having two entities, a self, and a me???

Well, it could exist outside DE, but I don’t know if it really does.
Really?? OK, please describe the difference (if there is any) between direct experience and the ‘outside’ of DE.

Vivien: Or believing or not believing stories just happens by ‘themselves’?

Pete: Yes, this seems to be the case

It SEEMS to be the case, or IS IT the case?

Don’t just assume, but LOOK!

Vivien: Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

Pete: Not sure. But Haven’t managed to do it.

Then do it again and again and again, until the answer is clearly seen. Report back what's been seen.

Hmm. When relaxing I can’t know what the next thought will be. But if I “manipulating” it, it can be predicted. I can f. ex say this: the next thought will be “car” – and then the next thought is “car”

Really? This is just a story believed. LOOK.

Is there a ‘you’ that is doing the manipulating, or the sense of manipulation just happens?

I Can’t find nothing but thoughts and sensations. I can’t find an I doing it in DE.

And can an ‘I’ be found ‘outside’ of DE?
Is there outside and inside at all?
Is there an ‘I’ anywhere, in any form, except as a thought?

Vivien: “I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?

Pete: I don’t know – some sensations in the head comes to attention, but these can’t be the I. It’s an assumption, but the I can’t be found.

and

But the I thought seems very real – not like just a thought.

Observe this:

Say out loud the word ‘I’ several times. At the same time try to trace back where the word ‘I’ point to. Try to localise where is the ‘I’ exactly.

You can observe that whenever the word ‘I’ is said or even thought about the focus of attention goes automatically to the bodily sensations (usually somewhere to the upper body or head or both). So there is a direct, automatic association between the word ‘I’ and the felt sensations in the body.

So the word ‘I’ and the bodily sensations are welded together, creating the SENSE of ‘me’. The ‘sense’ part is coming from the felt sensations, and ‘me’ part is coming as a thought. When this is not seen, BUMMM! The illusion of ‘me’ is created. Can you see this?

So, can the ‘I’ be found in the actual experience other than a thought?

Vivien: Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?

Pete: Don’t know. Some thoughts can be repeated for long periods of time. Is there an I doing it? Don’t know, can’t find it.

Then look again and again and again, until it is clearly seen. Report back what's been seen.

Vivien: Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

Pete: No, I don’t think so. Haven’t been able to do it.

Then look again and again and again, until it is clearly seen. Report back what's been seen.

Resistance to saying that “I” am just a thought. But at least I can’t find the I outside thought.

If this resistance comes up later at any time, please let me know and we can investigate it.

Love, Vivien

[Pete777]

Tried to be certain before answering, so I am doing one question at a time.

Vivien: Or believing or not believing stories just happens by ‘themselves’
Pete: Yes, this seems to be the case
It SEEMS to be the case, or IS IT the case?

WHen looking there is found no one doing the believing. There is still doubt about this. Will continue.

[Vivien]

Dear Pete,

I’ll wait until you answer all the questions, then I reply back to all. So just keep going on. :)

Love, Vivien

[Pete777]

Seen that that believing just happens. Also seen that thoughts saying otherwise also just happens. The thoughts saying otherwise are still believed to some extent though.

A problem might be with my expectations regarding seeing that believing stories just happens. I have not found anything that disproves this. There is still a belief that saying that believing just happens just comes from wanting the benefits of seeing no self. This belief is in itself just happening, but that doesn't seem to give any confidence in the believing just happens-statement.

I feel a little stressed thinking I'm not getting the expected progress with the questions. This makes me inclined to just state that believing just happens.

[Vivien]

Dear Pete,

How things are going?

Seen that that believing just happens. Also seen that thoughts saying otherwise also just happens. The thoughts saying otherwise are still believed to some extent though.

Very good looking

A problem might be with my expectations regarding seeing that believing stories just happens.

OK, let’s examine this.

Is there any choice whatsoever in when believing or not believing the story happens?
Can it be controlled?
Or in one moment story is believed, and in the next it’s just seen through?

Love, Vivien

[Pete777]

How things are going?

This have been going well lately. I believe the illusion might have been seen through. At least it is seen that no one is making the inner commentary happen – it just appears. This is seen again and again and results in relaxation. Tell me if this inquiry also is about discovering more than this.

Is there any choice whatsoever in when believing or not believing the story happens?

Thoughts says so, but no choice is seen when looking.

Can it be controlled?

Directly: no.
Indirectly: if seeing through it becomes a habit it, the believing will lessen.

Or in one moment story is believed, and in the next it’s just seen through?

Yes, this is my experience.

Vivien: Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

It can be resisted in the middle. The resistance just arises though. So the answer to your question is no.

Is there a ‘you’ that is doing the manipulating, or the sense of manipulation just happens?

The latter is true.

Is there outside and inside at all?

There is a thought saying this is inside the body. Besides that thought no outside or inside is found.

Is there an ‘I’ anywhere, in any form, except as a thought?

“I” is seen to be a thought believed.

[Vivien]

Dear Pete,

It’s good to hearing from you :)

There is a thought saying this is inside the body. Besides that thought no outside or inside is found.

Yes, exactly.

“I” is seen to be a thought believed.

Good, very good.

At least it is seen that no one is making the inner commentary happen – it just appears. This is seen again and again and results in relaxation. Tell me if this inquiry also is about discovering more than this.

Has it been seen that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?

Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?
Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?

Any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

Whet it is seen that there has never been a self, as a next step, there are further six questions to ask as part of this guiding process. The response is then shared with other guides. They may or may not have further questions.

Once it is confirmed by other guides that seeing through the illusion of the self has happened, our conversation in this thread will come to an end, however you won’t be left alone. There is a whole community of others on FB (exclusive LU community), who have also seen through the ‘self’. Further inquiries and discussions happen there.

Are you ready for the six questions?

Love, Vivien

[Pete777]

Has it been seen that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?

Today the experience have been a bit different. Looking hasn’t resulted in seeing through thoughts to the same extent, so most of the time I feel like I’m here. But when thoughts are seen through it is seen that there is nothing but senses + thought, and that thought just arises. A little bit later in the day the looking seems to work better. It is seen more clearly that the I is just a thought, and therefore has never been a real entity able to control life.

Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

I feel like I’m choosing, but the next moment this I Is seen to be a thought. Is it then really a chooser? No, at least not in DE. It may be a chooser that’s outside awareness, but it’s not “me” (the brain chooses).

Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?

Same answer here. I still feel like I’m here. When looking into this, I is seen to be a thought believed. A thought can’t be responsible for anything at all.

Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?

Same answer as above. It still seems that way, when looking this is seen to be a thought. A thought couldn’t start the conversation.

Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?

Same anwer as the above.

Any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

Well, I can’t say this insight is a knowing in the sense that it is available at all times. Sometimes when the I -thought is believed, looking is attempted, but the thought is still believed. Other times it seems really obvious. Seeing that inner commentary is just a thought shifts the perspective of that thought - but only in that moment. The perspective isn't shifted at all times. I don't know if this is to be exptected. Also there is some comparisment to knowledge about others experience (grief/sadness) - this hasn't happened here yet. But you've already told me that expectations doesn't do any good - so I try to leave it.

Also the answer for ur questions is kind of a deduction. I is a thought - and a thought can't do anything. Maybe I should play with intention to experience it more directly.

[Pete777]

Are you ready for the six questions?

I believe I am - but see the other answers

[Vivien]

Dear Pete,

Today the experience have been a bit different. Looking hasn’t resulted in seeing through thoughts to the same extent, so most of the time I feel like I’m here. But when thoughts are seen through it is seen that there is nothing but senses + thought, and that thought just arises. A little bit later in the day the looking seems to work better. It is seen more clearly that the I is just a thought, and therefore has never been a real entity able to control life.

Good. But it’s important to note that liberation is not about constantly seeing through thoughts and not identifying with the I-thought and stories again, because identification and not seeing through thoughts are just the result of a lifelong conditioning. So X years of conditioning won’t go away in an instance, but without a centre, a ‘me’, there is nothing they could attach to or stick to, so they GRADUALLY fall away. This falling can last until the end of the organism. So expecting that seeing through the illusion of the self is the end is quite unrealistic.

Identification with the I-thought and self-referencing thoughts and stories still arise as a content of thoughts. However, upon investigation (or sometimes without any investigation) it can be seen that they are only thoughts and nothing more, nothing ‘real’.

Seeing that inner commentary is just a thought shifts the perspective of that thought - but only in that moment. The perspective isn't shifted at all times. I don't know if this is to be exptected.

No, not at all. Expecting this is bound to disappointment. See the above comments.

Also there is some comparisment to knowledge about others experience (grief/sadness) - this hasn't happened here yet.

I don’t know what others experiences (grief/sadness) you are talking about. This is nothing else just a content of an arising thought that is believed. Just an expectation that is believed to have to happen in order to another thought must follow “this is it”.

I feel like I’m choosing, but the next moment this I Is seen to be a thought. Is it then really a chooser? No, at least not in DE. It may be a chooser that’s outside awareness, but it’s not “me” (the brain chooses).

Is there anything outside of direct experience?

Is there anything outside of this moment?

How is it known that the brain chooses? Just because a thought suggests so?
How is the brain making the decision/choosing is experienced, with which of the 5 senses?
How is the brain experienced, with which of the 5 senses?

Is there anything that is making a decision, or decision just happens without a doer or owner?

Love, Vivien

[Pete777]

Is there anything outside of direct experience?

Is there anything outside _my_ DE? The only thing I can know and experience is DE. But I can have an idea in my DE that others may also have a DE. Seeing how others behave implies this. But it can't be _known_.

Is there anything outside of this moment?

From this perspective: no. There may be other perspectives too.

How is it known that the brain chooses? Just because a thought suggests so?

Yes. It can't be known in DE. It's just a thought (however, I find little reason to doubt it).

How is the brain making the decision/choosing is experienced, with which of the 5 senses?

The action/thought just arises. No decision/choosing experienced.

How is the brain experienced, with which of the 5 senses?

Only as content of a thought.

Is there anything that is making a decision, or decision just happens without a doer or owner?

A decision just happens. No owner/doer percieved in DE.

[Vivien]

Dear Pete,

Is there anything outside _my_ DE? The only thing I can know and experience is DE. But I can have an idea in my DE that others may also have a DE.

What is the ‘me’ that supposedly has its own DE?
What are others that supposedly have their own DE?

Let’s investigate the body a bit.
With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With only the input from the senses, and without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does it have a weight or a volume of the body?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or outside?

What is the body in the actual experience?

Vivien: How is it known that the brain chooses? Just because a thought suggests so?

Pete: Yes. It can't be known in DE. It's just a thought (however, I find little reason to doubt it).

Can the content of an appearing thought ever be real?
What is the difference between an appearing thought and its content?

Love, Vivien

[Pete777]

What is the ‘me’ that supposedly has its own DE?

there’s a thought believed: “I” – when this is seen there is thoughts and senses. Thoughts and sensing is the the experience here, the “me”.

What are others that supposedly have their own DE?

they are bodies that can be perceived through the senses + a thought that perceives these bodies as persons.

Can it be known how tall the body is?

I find this task hard – “without relying on thoughts/images” – these interfere all the time. I try to suppress this, which leads to frustration. I try to ignore this, which doesn’t seem successful. I try to only look at this which doesn’t seem successful, because only parts of it is looked upon. Any input on this?

Does the sensation in the foot itself imply that that’s where the body ends? Well – if I try to force myself to not consider the mental images I guess no is the answer. Same thing goes for the head. So it can’t be known. Will answer the rest of these questions tomorrow

Can the content of an appearing thought ever be real?

No, but it may correspond with something in reality. If I think that the keys are in my pocket, and upon checking they are found, the thought is “correct”.

What is the difference between an appearing thought and its content?

an appearing thought can be said to be real, but it’s content is in itself not real (but may correspond with something perceived through the other senses, as described above).