Thread for Monja Gitana

[Mad biker]

I can't separate thought and sensation. They are happening simultaneously.

That's just fine, no probs! That's the funny thing with conditioned arisings and can help them to seem like such a convincing package as they they are 100% 'real' or even 'objective' sometimes!

I could see more clearly the whole thing arising. I could see a choice and I chose the familiar one. I just went with it. But I could feel a loosening going on, a letting go in the midst of the seemingly chaos of emotions, thoughts and sensations.

YAY!!! You are right on the money here, spotting the 'maker of the ridgepole' that co-creates a sense of 'self', a me that is hurt.

I would not discuss this 'no self' territory with the boyfriend at present if I were you. They can accidentally and well-meaningly point us away from the gate at crucial moments.

[Mad biker]

Mistake above should read; "...AS IF THEY ARE 100% 'REAL'..."

[Mad biker]

Tell me how you are now?
Mbx

[Monja gitana]

Hi, I'm good thanks, in London now for a couple of weeks.

I told the boyfriend a while ago. When I had the reaction the other day he reacted quite strongly back which I found odd because I felt I was just having a reaction to something that at the moment I'm reacting to and it didn't feel like a big deal to me. I had a sense that something was just playing out and it does feel like its losing its momentum. But there is still a part of me that's attached to it but I'm not too worried about it.

The journey from Barcelona to London yesterday felt feel of wonder and amazement. My senses felt very open and alive to what was happening around me. Everything looked beautiful, the greeness, the people, the river, the buildings. I felt connected, open and free. MG x

[Mad biker]

Two weeks in London? Cool! Let's move on to two posts per day OK?

But there is still a part of me that's attached to it

Is that an actual fact Gitana? It sounds like an idea. It sounds like 'thought' ie outside of your actual Direct Experience
How would you describe it to a five year old?

Do your few breaths to just arrive there.

Where is this part of 'you' that is "!attached to it"?
Can you point to it now?
Can you point me to it now in Direct Experience?

[Monja gitana]

Yeh, you're right, its a thought and then various sensations and emotions happen which I then see as 'me' and this is who I am. The part thats attached to it is in the thoughts,. Right now I'm thinking about the thing that I reacted to and its just 'thinking' about something, thoughts. I'm just sitting here, thoughts are arising, birds are singing, people are talking downstairs, sound of the rain, pressure on my left shin where my right leg is resting on it. And everything is moving, flowing, the thoughts, sounds sensations.MG x

[Mad biker]

Right now I'm thinking about the thing that I reacted to and its just 'thinking' about something, thoughts. I'm just sitting here, thoughts are arising, birds are singing, people are talking downstairs, sound of the rain, pressure on my left shin where my right leg is resting on it. And everything is moving, flowing, the thoughts, sounds sensations.

Mmm! Lovely stuff!

But look, what does this bit mean?

The part thats attached to it is in the thoughts,.

:

Can you take me through the full meaning of that sentence in detail?
Mbx

[Monja gitana]

The thoughts so often feel like me. When I'm reacting the thoughts are loud and clear and I'm more aware of them than anything else that is going on, like the knot in my stomach, constricted throat, whatever sensations are arising, the other person. MG x

[Mad biker]

The thoughts so often feel like me. When I'm reacting the thoughts are loud and clear and I'm more aware of them than anything else that is going on,

OK. It is quite normal for people to believe that 'thought' is who they are, that thought is somehow them, that thought is indeed 'self'. Now although the Buddha called this nuts, you have not been remarkably so, in what could be, in all sobriety, called a world of fellow nutters.

Now just arrive there with some breathing and take yourself through this next bit gently with a completely relaxed mudra:

Can a thought think anything?
Can a thought DO anything?
Can a thought actually MAKE anything happen?
Can a thought even 'decide' what 'it' is going to 'think' next? (we might decide to follow the breathing but a lot of the time that just does not happen, right?)

Does a thought think?

CAN a thought think itself? Or indeed can it, ITSELF, think?
Don't thoughts just arise by themselves?

Don't thoughts just stop by themselves?
Haven't we all had the sensation that comes from noticing that there was this big MAJOR number of a theme that was exercising our thought in a big deal way for an hour or so, but looking back at it a few hours later it all seems a lot less of a big deal even though the actual details of the objective situation still remain unchanged?

But are thoughts not ALWAYS about the past?
Thoughts are never about the present moment because as soon as we can label a mental event; 'a thought' it has already just passed away. Has it not? Just think about it.

How could 'you' therefore be your thoughts? How could 'thought' really be honestly said to be what 'you' in fact are?

Unless you are saying that you are a fleeting phenomenon that has already passed away?

Would it not be more true to say that what I call Monja Gitana is simply a five skandha package participating in the flow of conditioned arisings just like every other atom in the universe? That this is a mutually interdependent ballet where labels only get in the way by seeming to create separation where no separation actually exists? (Even in scientifically verifiable objective fact thanks to Quantum Physics etc, by the way).

Get back to me again today.
Mbx

[Monja gitana]

Sorry didn't get back to you again yesterday, full on day helping a friend prepare for a party.

Gee, thoughts can't do much, they are so insubstantial and fleeting. They can't do any of the above things that you mentioned. Like you said they arise and pass. Yeh, so if I was thought I wouldn't exist. The thoughts are part of the package deal along with everything else.

Going to stay with a friend tonight so won't be able to get back to you until tomorrow.MG x

[Gita]

OK,no probs, see you back here tomorrow then.
It's also OK about you not getting back yesterday either. I had meant to say get back if you can, but the 'if you can' bit did not get typed!
Mbx

[Mad biker]

if I was thought I wouldn't exist.

Well is there indeed a 'you' which actually exists? Is there indeed a 'self' at all?

In what way is the thinker separate from thought?

If your 'self' is not thought, then what or where is 'the self'?

[Mad biker]

Perhaps the Buddha was right after all?

He said that the psycho-physical organism was made up of the five skandhas, full stop, with nothing else.

He did not add "Oh yeah and I forgot to mention that there's a wee Monja Gitana inside there too folks, operating levers, switches and stuff"

[Mad biker]

How are things Gitana?
Mbx

[Monja gitana]

Hi MB, sorry for not getting back to you. Its always pretty full on when I'm back in London. I'm going away now till Sunday eve and I wont have internet access. Will reply on Monday. MGx