MP

[Meera]

in another attempt just now i had a sense of i am doing the breathing. but same time it was in such uncontrolled way sometimes silent and steady. then deep and heavy. then with shakes. but same time how it can be a me if it shows up so uncontrolled. i think i got stuck trying to „not release“ something? and then it got me into the believe that i am the doer. was trying to find this me but i couldn’t.

i feel a bit stuck..

[graceabounds]

Hello,

Yes it can be gradual, but the loss of reactivity and sense seeing there is no one is in control are important landmarks. Is there still a sense of seeking?

Sleeplessness can happen. Also conditioning can push back, and old patterns can resurface. It doesn’t mean you’ve “lost” clarity. It’s just more material being shown to be seen.

Sensations are not proof of an ‘I’. sensations are just sensations. The “I” only comes in as a thought-story about them. If you believe any of these sensations indicate a self, that’s exactly the kind of subtle identification to look at. That sense of “I am doing the breathing” is precisely another selfing flare-up—a thought-story riding on top of raw sensation.

Stay with the raw breath exactly as it’s showing up—steady, shaky, heavy—without trying to influence or resist.
3Notice the instant a thought says, “I am doing this” or “I’m stuck”. See it as a label slapped on top of sensation. Let it pass without buying in. Come back to: movement of air, expansion/contraction, look directly for a one controlling any of it.

So right now, is there an actual doer in the middle of it, or is there only breathing happening?

[Meera]

Is there still a sense of seeking?

no.. there’s no seer.

That sense of “I am doing the breathing” is precisely another selfing flare-up—a thought-story riding on top of raw sensation.

Okay yes that’s what it feels like. It came up because i wanted to do it right and the though of „don’t adapt breathing to release something“ but releasing something actually would be more like a wanting to get ease or something out and there was no attempt to it. So yes.. breathing is simply just happening.

I just felt some unease and felt to ask if there’s a feeler. heat, pulsation. moving up. it became less or disappeared. i i couldn’t find a feeler.

[graceabounds]

Exactly that’s it. You saw the loop:
Wanting to “do it right” → thought of “don’t adapt” → subtle stance of controlling → sense of “I am doing.”
And then, as soon as it’s looked at directly, it’s clear ! breathing’s just there, self-running. :) As it has always been…

Same with the unease, heat, pulsation:
The mind’s default is to smuggle in a “feeler” but when you actually check, there’s only sensation. No one inside receiving it. Just warmth, movement, changing. Then it fades.

This is the key point: the self never actually exists in the moment. it only appears as a mental overlay, after the fact, as commentary about what’s already happening.

Stay with that rawness. Don’t just see it once, test it in every appearance:
Sensation: only sensation? Or sensation + story?
Thought: just thought? Or thought + belief that it’s “me thinking”?
Action: just happening? Or action + belief in a doer?

Right now is there any place a self is actually present, outside of a thought about it?

[Meera]

i read just ur first two blocks and after some lines i had to cry just on each word. „As it has always been“… yes that feels so familiar.. there’s such delight and warmth inside..

yes right. how i was trying to control or change this natural thing that has always been.. i felt like a voice telling, hey, it’s okay.. it’s all ok. and looking at this fighting which is so exhausting.

i’ll do the exercise in a silent moment soon.

[Meera]

im so stuck.. i just feel still like im in the body..

i hear the voices of my son and husband constantly it’s so difficult to not label them.

what i notice now is that there are no strong sensations (beside of the hearing).. thoughts that i’m stuck… wanna see. want so much to see and break through this illusion. doing it wrong. lost and irritated. like i fell a step behind from where i was. i think im dramatizing.

okay now silence…

i feel even wrong about writing this and taking your time. it might be just blabla and feel a temptation to look into other threads how others do. i’m totally in a loop. it’s so dumb to even share this.

what is even this nausea always. why i again feel threatened by my husband whereas days ago i was at such ease and felt that all the weight of being the doer went off.

is it not off the rules and i shall only share what is my direct experience?

i’ll try again.. i feel like i unlearned it. or that i can’t do it anymore.

[Meera]

perhaps i’m also having difficulties with language.. or it’s just another excuse.

it feels something could be judged or that i’m not performing well. now there’s warmth everywhere.

[Meera]

ok this will sound now even more weird but.. if there is no me here in this room and the seeing is not done be me.. then what’s that shape of nose or hands or face shape thats always visible around like the same window with same curtains. omg its so clear how dumb this is but really this is what i believed always.. there’s my body. face. i look through eyes and see what my hands are doing. and right now it feels so scary that… don’t know how to continue.

logically i know there’s no time space person.. there’s no borders. but what is all this then.

[Meera]

when i now look at my hand typing i feel the seeing has changed.. it seems much less me now. and looks more like it’s happening and being seen.

[graceabounds]

Hello,

You are doing just fine. This process can be triggering and disorienting, everything stops making sense for a while, the old systems of interpretation are not reliable anymore, and that is OK!

ok this will sound now even more weird but.. if there is no me here in this room and the seeing is not done be me.. then what’s that shape of nose or hands or face shape thats always visible around like the same window with same curtains. omg its so clear how dumb this is but really this is what i believed always.. there’s my body. face. i look through eyes and see what my hands are doing. and right now it feels so scary that… don’t know how to continue.

What you’re seeing right now (nose shape, hands, curtains) is not “you” looking at “your” body parts. It’s exactly the same kind of appearance as the curtains, the wall, or the table. There’s no special status for the shapes that your brain habitually labels “my nose” or “my hands.”

It feels scary because the brain’s entire model of “me inside, world outside” is getting dismantled in real time. That model has been running since early childhood, so it will protest. This fear is the selfing program sounding the alarm: “If I’m not the body, what am I?”!

You don’t need to answer that question. You can’t. And trying will only put you back in concept.

Instead look at the “nose” in your visual field:
Without the label “nose,” what is it?
Is it in the same space as the curtains, or in a different “inside” space?
Does the appearance itself tell you it belongs to a “me,” or is that only a thought layered on top?

Do the same with the hands: is there anything in direct experience that says “this is my hand,” or is that ownership just another thought?

What you’ll find is that all of it… nose, curtains, hands etc… are just shapes, colors, sensations, none of which point to a separate “I” behind them.

Right now, can you look and tell me — is there an actual seer separate from the seeing?

what i notice now is that there are no strong sensations (beside of the hearing).. thoughts that i’m stuck… wanna see. want so much to see and break through this illusion. doing it wrong. lost and irritated. like i fell a step behind from where i was. i think im dramatizing.

The one who is lost, the one who dramatizes, the one who is stuck… are any of these you?

Look closely: in the raw, actual experience of hearing and whatever else is here, where’s the separate entity who’s doing it wrong? Can you find it?

The following exercise is designed to let you ‘feel’ the difference between actual experience and imagined experience:

Close your eyes and imagine that you are holding a spoon. Imagine the spoons form, its size, its weight, its temperature. Look and feel at the imaginary spoon for a while.

Then open your eyes … is there a spoon here, in real life?
So how did you see that there is no spoon?
What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear or did it never exist?

Notice that there was no boom and no bright flashes of light when the imaginary spoon was no longer imagined. Remember this, the shift to seeing through the illusion of a separate self is not going to be any more than this, it is just a dropping of a belief – the belief is the glue that holds the illusion together.

Now go and get a spoon from the kitchen and hold it in the same way that you imagined it.
Feel the spoon’s form, its size, its weight, its temperature.
Close your eyes and feel the spoon for a while.

Now open your eyes … is there a spoon here, in real life?
Are the image of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same?
How does imagining and experiencing the same thing differ?

Now close your eyes again and bring your attention to the image of “me”, the separate individual entity. Spend some time exploring this, and then answer the following question:
Is it an image or is it an actual entity?

(The questions are really just there for you to consider as you do the exercise, I do not need detailed answers to each one, just some reflections on how the exercise went for you, or if you have any questions or need any clarification.)

[Meera]

this helped a lot. there’s much more clarity about the face and nose shape.

yesterday night i felt for a moment completely like not in a body and it felt almost like the perspective shifted.. i was half asleep and got out.

today there was a moment saying that no.. there is really no me in all this. in all those sensations, sounds; and an understanding that there is just no I necessary between all this. everything just is. without any me necessary there. lots of cry. it was a beautiful moment to realize this and felt very loosening. when i opened my eyes the body didn’t feel like mine. it was weird.. i didn’t know even how to handle all this. just nothing inside that wants to move.

after some quite some time not moving at all and hanging just down and don’t know how to operate the body again a slight worry then came up: can i even handle all this and be there for my son)?. guess that’s what brought me back. again i feel the hands are mine and they have borders that can be felt.

to me it felt again like the me became so much smaller. but the shift is not happening.

again i logically understand that it’s all an illusion. just can’t look fully through yet.

i will keep it up. will not give up.

[graceabounds]

Beautiful.

today there was a moment saying that no.. there is really no me in all this. in all those sensations, sounds; and an understanding that there is just no I necessary between all this. everything just is. without any me necessary there. lots of cry. it was a beautiful moment to realize this and felt very loosening.

This moment you describe is already the looking-through. The “shift” you’re waiting for is another story layer, another expectation (thought) the mind holds onto from somewhere in the background. Right here in that motionless, borderless quiet, there is nothing missing. But notice how the worry pulled back into the familiar reference point of me who must manage life. That’s the selfing reflex kicking back in to re-establish orientation.

That “pull back” doesn’t undo anything. It just reactivates a habit loop. The seeing itself (that there’s no I necessary) is untouched. The belief “I can’t handle this” is itself just more content arising in the same field as sensations, sounds, and sights. It has no special authority, except the one given by identifying with it.

The “shift” you think hasn’t happened is just the absence of the drama you expected. This is it. The rest is conditioning trying to claim it or reject it.

Let’s circle back to this exploring of ownership of thoughts…

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one
thought follows another thought’?

Ultimately are any of these thoughts YOURS?
Are they owned?

Are you paying attention at every moment to what your son needs? Or does feeding, comforting, nurturing happen without continual thought about it? Take a look, see if you can catch some automatic movements: towards preparing food for yourself or him, towards picking him up, even talking to him or your husband… is there premeditation for all of this? Is there a controller of it?

look at those moments in real time. Not in memory. Not in theory.

When the hand reaches for the bottle, when your body turns toward a cry, when words come out… is there really a little “operator” inside pushing levers? Or does it all just happen, as naturally as the sound of his voice happening, the warmth of his skin happening?

See if you can catch even one movement that required an “I” to make it happen. :)

[Meera]

thoughts come and go and the doing always happens independently of them. not in any systematic way or ordered by any thought. there might be thoughts about what perhaps to do next but the doing could happen a while later or even not. the doing just happens. no thought necessary for this. and for the thoughts no I is needed. they do not come from any I or are done by any I. no operator needed for anything.

[graceabounds]

You’re already seeing in real time that self is only ever a thought-label applied after the fact. What remains is conditioning — reflexive thoughts and sensations — that suggest a self but never actually show one. The “shift” is not an event to wait for; it’s simply this ongoing recognition applied again and again until even the suggestion of a self loses credibility entirely.

So, taking a look, now, is there anything missing?

[Meera]

no there’s nothing missing. it was not there.