Re: I would like to be guided by Poppyseed :)
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2025 9:57 am
Sure, Reby! Thanks for letting me know :)
Liberation Unleashed Forum The Gate
https://liberationunleashed.com:443/nation/
https://liberationunleashed.com:443/nation/viewtopic.php?t=9943
NoTouch the lighter.
Be utterly still. Feel the sensation.
Now:
Can you find anything in the sensation itself that says “lighter”?
It is ungraspableDoes the sensation has a certain shape, or is it ungraspable?
NoCan the sensation declare itself to be anything at all?
NoCan it say “I am a separate object, I am volume, I am outside of perception”?
All added by thoughtOr is that only added by thought?
I continue to see the existence of the objectSo try this:
Instead of deconstructing the object… try letting it win.
Let the lighter be exactly as it appears in DE: colour, sensation, a thought that says “lighter”.
Now where is the object—as a thing-in-itself?
color and sensation but this is also a thought so I don't knowBut what is it without the thought?
Do you see?
No, not from this perspective.Those shapes aren’t really there - they are only formed out of colour - but they SEEM (appear) to be. So from that perspective...do the shapes really exist?
I can't find this borderOK… Now LOOK! Where is the border where seeing ends and the seen begins?
It's a mental constructCan you find any beams or lasers (that seeing is made of), anything at all OR that border is it a mental construct?
Yes1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?
No) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?
No) Can what is seeing/witnessing the blackness be found?
There is only blackness, everything else is just a thoughtCan a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me'/Reby, a person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?
For a moment I saw that.. no! It seemed quite funny to me, I laughed.. but I can't replicateCan an INHERENT SEE-ER be found?
NoWould anything that is suggested as the see-er/observer/experiencer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
It seems like you are expecting a drastic change in experience. Can description of experience change the actual raw experience?? It’s not that you were seeing objects before and now you will stop all of a sudden – it’s all a description/thought that comes after/layered over the raw seeing - both "I see an object" and "There is no object" are descriptions layered on top of the raw experience. Shapes and dimensions are not inherent to the raw experience, they are added in the description – “this is an object”, “I continue to see the existence of the object”. These are all thoughts after/over the raw seeing.Now where is the object—as a thing-in-itself?I continue to see the existence of the object
Right now—in the raw, alive present—feel into that not-knowing.Color and sensation but this is also a thought so I don't know.
If you are expecting that you would be laughing non stop after seeing no self, you are mistaken and in the wrong place – remember no fireworks, just a subtle shift of perceptions. To be able to replicate/to maintain takes an agency, a doer. Seeing no self is not a state, it is just seeing though the illusion/descriptions/perceptions - the mirage of an oasis is just the desert. There is a difference between an illusion and a delusion. One is known not be real, while the other is believed to be true. The mirage of an oasis does not disappear after it is seen as the desert, but you know very well that you won't be getting water.For a moment I saw that.. no! It seemed quite funny to me, I laughed.. but I can't replicate
NoIt seems like you are expecting a drastic change in experience. Can description of experience change the actual raw experience??
Ok I think I get it..It’s not that you were seeing objects before and now you will stop all of a sudden – it’s all a description/thought that comes after/layered over the raw seeing - both "I see an object" and "There is no object" are descriptions layered on top of the raw experience. Shapes and dimensions are not inherent to the raw experience, they are added in the description – “this is an object”, “I continue to see the existence of the object”. These are all thoughts after/over the raw seeing.
When I took the piece of chocolate, it was smooth and a little cold to the touch. As soon as I put it in my mouth, it started to melt. The flavor is "soft" and sweet, intense, it left me with a creamy sensation.3.Describe the experience in as much detail as possible.
Write the description here. What was the experience like?
a lot of effort to try to keep the imagination on the imagined experience the imagination is very poor in detailsAfter you have done this, tell me what you noticed when you compared these three experiences: 1. Imaginary piece of chocolate
the experience of taste and mouthfeel is effortless and rich in content2. Real piece of chocolate
when I wrote the experience, the memory of the experience I had just had made the description richerDescription of eating the real piece of chocolate
In thoughtIn the imaginary chocolate—was there an “eater”?
Only thoughtWhat is actually present? Was there any actual chocolate? Or only mental image + sensation + thought?
No in the sense that there was only the taste. Yes because I was the one doing it.. an ambivalent answerIn the real chocolate—was there still an “eater”?
Sensations plus thoughts about me eating chocolateOr only sensations?
More real and more intenseWas this experience more real? Or just more intense?
The thought/IIn the description—who is speaking?
The speaker is nothing but the thought... but...Can that “speaker” be found outside of thought?
In the body that has these experiences... in that which is aware of them...Where exactly is “you” in any of the three stages?
I understand but I just understandIs it ever more than a mental image—attached to a sensation—narrated by a thought?
I took some more time to see if I could do it but so far I haven't been able to.Stay with this.
Don't move until the mechanism is felt as illusion, not understood as concept.
No, color and sensation exist independently of thought.Right now, there is colour. There is sensation. But is that actually a thought? Or is the label “thought” being added after the fact?
they are real, present undefined and ungraspableLook now.
Are the raw textures of sight and touch inherently conceptual? Or are they just present, undefined, ungraspable?
YesThen notice: the naming happens on top of something already here (the raw experience of chocolate).
Can you see that? Can you feel the difference between what is actually present and the mental overlay?
Perception IS the perceived, they are one thingStare at the “lighter.” FEEL it.
Where, precisely, is the boundary between perception and the perceived?
Pure perceptionNow drop the idea of “lighter,” drop “hand,” drop “self,” drop even “experience.”
What remains?
The perception of the sensesBe precise. No philosophy.
What is here when thought doesn’t define it?
The perceivedReport from this moment only. Don’t bring memory.
What is this, right now?
Ok, thanks :)Just to clear something up...
(For a moment I saw that.. no! It seemed quite funny to me, I laughed.. but I can't replicate)
If you are expecting that you would be laughing non stop after seeing no self, you are mistaken and in the wrong place – remember no fireworks, just a subtle shift of perceptions. To be able to replicate/to maintain takes an agency, a doer. Seeing no self is not a state, it is just seeing though the illusion/descriptions/perceptions - the mirage of an oasis is just the desert. There is a difference between an illusion and a delusion. One is known not be real, while the other is believed to be true. The mirage of an oasis does not disappear after it is seen as the desert, but you know very well that you won't be getting water.
In the real chocolate—was there still an “eater”?No in the sense that there was only the taste. Yes because I was the one doing it.. an ambivalent answer
Exactly. There was no eater—only tasting. Now let’s burn that ambivalence to the ground.Or only sensations?Sensations plus thoughts about me eating chocolate
Exactly. That’s not enough. This is not about understanding but seeing! But tell me... So you don’t see the thought overlay over the raw DE? There is raw indescribable sensation and then there is a thought that gives it meaning - it says "this is so and so". But let's try the reverse. I recently tried a fruit that the locals call sour soap. If I give you a description – the fruit is fragrant, sweet and sour, fleshy, and soft – did you manage to experience and get an idea what the fruit exactly tastes like? Did you have the raw experience?Is it ever more than a mental image—attached to a sensation—narrated by a thought?I understand but I just understand
What exactly is perceiving without thought? To perceive means to become aware or conscious of (something); come to realize or understand.What remains?Pure perception
Now that you know how to look, let’s investigate the “body”…Where exactly is “you” in any of the three stages?In the body that has these experiences... in that which is aware of them...
In the bodyWhere precisely is the one “doing it”?
It is assumed to be already here, in the bodyBut at what point did a “you” emerge in that chain?
NoWas there a doer who chose to feel the texture?
Just happenDid “you” initiate the melting, or did it just happen?
In thoughtWhere is the you that is eating?
In ThoughtIs there a command center?
In ThoughtA “mouth-owner”?
In ThoughtA “taster”?
Taste and the thought about me living that experienceOr is it all just taste… sensation… and the thought, after the fact, that says “I ate”?
Yes I see it, I think so.So you don’t see the thought overlay over the raw DE?
Nodid you manage to experience and get an idea what the fruit exactly tastes like? Did you have the raw experience?
Color, sound, touch, hearing, tasteWhat exactly is perceiving without thought?
I don't know.. something has to do it... by forceRight now—what is perceiving these words?
NoCan you find anything at all doing it?
There is only this and thought about meOr is there just… this… happening?
NoCan you find any edge to perceiving?
NoIs it located? Is it owned? Does it have a source?
sorry I'm not sure I understand this questionWithout a thought… is there even the notion that something is happening?
BWhen you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”?
NoCan it be known how tall the body is?
NoDoes the body have a weight or volume?
NoIn the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
NoIs there a boundary between the body and the chair?
Just one sensationAt the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
I see it's just a body but it's ALSO my bodyIs it "my" body, or is it just a body?
the border between inside and outside is the skin..Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
Sensations and colorsWhat does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
yes the body does thingsCan the 'body' do things?
Something is happening… you said “There is only this and thought about me”, so can it be known what is happening without the description/thought? You see, I like the word “THIS” as it is more like a pointing word – pointing to whatever is directly experienced like an arrow with no extra meaning – rather than labelling the experience. Looking is just staying with the experience without the commentary/the narration. Looking is a nonverbal action, thinking is verbal—it is naming experience. Both work together as one mechanism. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory), like the sour soap fruit. Do you see that?Without a thought… is there even the notion that something is happening?sorry I'm not sure I understand this question
Look again. Right now. Drop all explanations. Drop “force.” Drop “something.”Right now—what is perceiving these words?I don't know.. something has to do it... by force
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?I see it's just a body but it's ALSO my body
But where is the “my” in direct experience?Where precisely is the one “doing it”?In the body
Yes—the skin is the perfect lie. It seems like the boundary… but look again.Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?the border between inside and outside is the skin..
We’ll have a look next…Can the 'body' do things?yes the body does things
Eating an apple:Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.
Absolutely YES! Sorry I didn't understand what you were asking (I'm using the translator and maybe some meaning is lost here and there)so can it be known what is happening without the description/thought?
Yes, I see it. I think that the problem is precisely this, being able to escape the hypnosis of thought to be able to simply see things as they are. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for the effort you put into trying to make me understand!Looking is just staying with the experience without the commentary/the narration. Looking is a nonverbal action, thinking is verbal—it is naming experience. Both work together as one mechanism. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory), like the sour soap fruit. Do you see that?
Actually when I can glimpse that there is only this and nothing that perceives it, (but it always remains a subtle echo of me) the body simply relaxes into what is there. It is liberating but I can't see it completely free from the idea of being that which perceivesIs anything actually doing the perceiving?
trying to look, is the entity the one trying to look. It's like wanting to walk stepping on my own toes.Look closer. Not “think about”—look.
Is there an entity?
I feels like there is an observer behind the eyesA perceiving machine? A watcher behind the eyes (e.g. seeing "blackness")?
everything is happening but I'm in the foregroundOr is this just… happening?
There isn'tBut where is the “my” in direct experience?
NoRight now—eyes closed—feel the body.
Is there any evidence of an owner?
NoCan you find a tag that says “mine”?
sensations and the thought that continues to speak about meOr are there just raw sensations—warmth, pressure, movement?
ThoughtLet’s strip it:
“Body” is a label.
“My” is a label.
“Mine” is a story.
Sensation is what’s actually here.
Can you find anything in the actual experience that claims ownership?
I still don't trust direct experience exclusively.If “body” is just a label over sensations and colours, how can the doer/owner be inside sensations and colour?
I'm sorry I'm not able to answer these questionsIf there’s no owner of the body…
…and no self to be found in sensation, or thought…
What is the self? Where was it ever?
Tell me now—don’t reach for logic:
Was there ever a “you”?
I know we've already covered this but the different colors have meaning for me..I feel the border with perception, for example if I pick up the remote control (black) I don't just see the border between it and my pink hand, I also perceive it with sensation where the borders correspond to what I see in the colors. It's a perception confirmed by the different angles of the senses and this makes it a finished objectYes—the skin is the perfect lie. It seems like the boundary… but look again.
Right now—direct experience only: Is there actually a boundary?
Just a feeling.... but I don't have to look, seeing confuses meTouch your arm.
Where is the line between sensation and touching? Are there two sensations - one of fingers and one of skin - or just ONE (labelled "fingers toucing skin")?
Still yes..Is there “you” inside, and “world” outside?
Touching my arm, with my eyes closed, there is only the sensation. With my eyes open there is still only the sensation but let's say the boundary between reality and concepts becomes more blurredOr just sensation—neither in nor out?
With my eyes closed, no, I can't define the boundariesDoes the sensation have a boundary - where does it start and where does it end?
no I only see colorNow stare at your hand.
Do you see “inside” and “outside”?
Yes it is thisOr is that a thought superimposed on color, shape, pressure?
Now my hand is resting on the table. The border seems to me to be the line where the color of my hand ends and the color of the table begins... if I touch my hand I feel the touch, if I touch the table, I don't feel the touch, so the border, i must again to confirm that it is the skin....Where’s the line?
Can you find it?
If I can't point to the body I don't know where I amSo go even deeper:
Where are you located?
Point to it.
Not a body. Not a name. Not a thought. You!
It's the body and the skin is the borderWhere is this “you” that’s supposedly inside the skin?
Inside and outside are real for me, the border is still there for meIf inside and outside are both stories—
and if no border can actually be found—
Is there any place “you” begin or end?
I understand this.Or has this always been boundary-less happening—with labels pasted on?
Behind the lookNow tell me:
Without reference to memory or language—
Where is “you”?
Look.
Thank you for doing such wonderful looking! :) It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit. How does it feel to see what actually is? Please give me a line or two with each of your replies to keep the momentum goingHolding the apple in your hand, simply: sensation
Seeing the apple, simply: color
How can it be known, if knowledge is also a description (a description of descriptions)? You seem to believe that there is a direct correspondence between labels and raw experience. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not. So let’s challenge this :so can it be known what is happening without the description/thought?Absolutely YES! Sorry I didn't understand what you were asking (I'm using the translator and maybe some meaning is lost here and there)
Feels like? Remember “feels like” is a thought; nothing in DE is “feels like” – it’s either here or not. And if it is here you should be able to give a full description (like with an apple). Also go back to the “blackness” and check if there are any eyes in the seeing of “blackness”. Read the description properly.I feels like there is an observer behind the eyes
But that “I who struggles”—can it be found outside the struggle?trying to look, is the entity the one trying to look. It's like wanting to walk stepping on my own toes.
I know this is "thinking about" but I struggle to "exclude myself" when I feel like the one who excludes.
Hehe, even if these beliefs are about Santa and unicorns???I still don't trust direct experience exclusively.
So in direct experience the perception of the body is sensations and colours and this is clear to me. However, thought says (and I believe it) that the body has a consistency, a volume, internal organs, an intelligent brain that creates consciousness....
Sorry but I just can't ignore these beliefs (it doesn't mean I don't want to try, it's just to put my weak points on the table)