There is no spoon

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Lenila
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Re: There is no spoon

Postby Lenila » Tue Jul 08, 2025 9:37 am

Ok, here are my next answers after doing the 20min exercise:
1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
With just writing verbs, the moment ist stripped down a little more to describable" facts". In the "I" -version there is an added parameter/character that is assumed
Maybe both can not be proven to be true, but in that case the version without "I" has less potentially false parameters
2. What is here without labels?
Everything that can be perceived. Just this. And its the same as with labels, but without having to be anything. Labels are just put on top of "just what is"
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
Labels seem to distract from/cut off the immersion in the experience. When thinking about the taste of coffee, there is less to no focus on the actual tasting. So, yes labels seem to affect the experience because they also have a comparison to previous experiences accompanied. If a label says:"this is coffee taste", then the actual tasting of the coffee here and now will be compared to previous coffee tastes and will be experienced not for what it is right now. It will be filtered through previous coffee tastes. So its filtered coffee (sorry, shitty pun intended)
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?
When writing with the use of "I": There was contracting in the chest, tension arose, slight discomfort
When writing without I and just using verbs: The contration loosened up a bit, mild relaxation

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Anastacia42
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Re: There is no spoon

Postby Anastacia42 » Tue Jul 08, 2025 1:05 pm

Filtered coffee - that's funny.

"
less potentially false parameters "
is pretty funny, too. True, but a little complicated.
Can you see how that answer is from thinking and not from direct experience?

Please stick to reporting what your 5 senses say.

Let's look a little deep red a couple of aspects of this.

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.


We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Loving,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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Lenila
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Re: There is no spoon

Postby Lenila » Tue Jul 08, 2025 3:03 pm

Dear Anastasia,
Can you see how that answer is from thinking and not from direct experience?
Yes this is seen, and in future it will be tried to just answer from direct experience.

This leads though a bit to the problem that seems to exist with that question:
1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
(from your last exercise)
There was not a clear sensation there. Nothing to obviously distinguish.

And there seems to be the same issue now with the lying test.
Various lies were tried now, with various levels of emotionally charged thoughts attached to them. But they don't seem to cause a really distinguishable body reaction, that can be differentiated for sure. The contractions are sometimes there when lied, sometimes not. Sometimes there are even contractions when the truth ist told.
At least now when tried alone at home.

Do you think someone is needed to lie into the face, so it gets clearer?

I really don't wanna be the special snowflake here or a pessimist. I just wanna be really honest. And if I'm even more honest, this seeming lack of feeling of body sensations is what I have encountered already before in inquiries and so worry grows more and more that this is what keeps me in thoughts so much. I know, all just stories, but I guess thoughts try now to come up with a solution.

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Anastacia42
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Re: There is no spoon

Postby Anastacia42 » Tue Jul 08, 2025 3:32 pm

Passive voice isn't reporting from Direct Experience, although I can understand you are trying to avoid using "I."

Okay, let's get you more in touch with the truth/lie or Body Yes/Body No Sensations. For times when you felt the contraction on something you thought was true, either it wasn't true or you had another thought there, maybe quickly.
Can you please give an example?

Watch Pernille's videos on this and see if there is any help there:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n6RnrkOD7 ... BphAoK764

Loving,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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Lenila
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Re: There is no spoon

Postby Lenila » Tue Jul 08, 2025 4:40 pm

For times when you felt the contraction on something you thought was true, either it wasn't true or you had another thought there, maybe quickly.
I guess there was maybe another thought there, that went too quick to realize it.
For example I tried with lying about my shoe size (which is emotionally not loaded at all)
And yeah interestingly enough there was a contraction, which I think was more coming from the subtle thought, "this is not working, I don't feel these things, this is too subtle"

But I also tried with a lie about my age.
My age for example is a thing that bothers me lately.
But also here, I did not sense a difference between the "lie contraction", or the "age problem contraction".

And lately I feel there are days, like today, when a lot of contractions are passing through and then everything gets very blurry.

But I have felt before what you are talking about and I think I know what you mean. Very often when I lied, there was a contraction paired with a tingling, or even hot vibrating in the chest. So even if it didn't really happen today I think I know what to look for. Maybe it was also blurred because of performance stress coming with this test, don't know.
If you insist I see it now, I guess I would have to try it on a less emotionally loaded day, I guess. Tried it with a bunch of other lies too, but no difference that is clear enough to be used as a precise tool.
And I will keep doing the lie test over and over again and see if there are similar sensations adding up. Maybe if its not so clear with lets say 20 lies, maybe it gets clearer with hundreds of lies.

But I repeated the exercise again now, with writing everything in "I" and just in verbs again, and there is a slight difference. This one I have also noticed before. Very, very subtle though and thoughts still tell me: you might just imagining that. But there is a and also was beforea bit of a lighter sensation in the body and chest without the "I", then when writing with an "I".

Just about question number 1 in the previous exercise:
1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
If you say though the contraction in the "I" version comes from my body, that notices a lie, that's something I could only believe you now (which is not what we want here now, right?). For me this lightness without the "I" could also come from not having the stress of being a person who is sitting alone in a room, doing this exercise. Or from the freedom of any limiting story about a me, that comes with it.
Also how can a sensation ever tell me anything about truth? I mean isn't this entire awakening thing also about the insight that we can never ever know anything really? If you ask me about truth, isn't that also just a concept?


Yeah sorry if I'm not making it easy here...

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Anastacia42
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Re: There is no spoon

Postby Anastacia42 » Tue Jul 08, 2025 8:08 pm

You don't have to be completely clear about this right now.

Everyone has this truth/lie sense. You can call it yes/no if you prefer. The point is that when you clearly see no separate self you will be feeling the expansion and lightness of the truth/yes feeling. Any contraction or tightness means there is still a lie. I don't expect you to believe it. It can be proven in your own body if you pay attention clearly.

I'm not sure what you did to check on these:
But also here, I did not sense a difference between the "lie contraction", or the "age problem contraction".
Make a simple declarative statement:

There is a self.
There is no self.
My age is a problem.

Then check your gut feeling. Let me know what statement you used.

It only takes once. Never does it take any repetition, except to find the feeling clearly if thinking is drowning it out, and certainly not 20 or 100 times.

Do NOT believe it just because I and Pernille and others say so. This you must check in your own body. And no, I don't insist you get clear about it now. It is just a very useful tool in this inquiry. As Pernille says, this is not some woo woo. This is science. The body has measurable changes.
Much love,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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Lenila
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Re: There is no spoon

Postby Lenila » Wed Jul 09, 2025 10:12 am

Hey Anastasia,

thank you so much for being so patient with me.

If its ok, I would take a few days of a break from this. Since 2 two days I have a lot of contractions coming up. And I mean A LOT. So I think that is also a reason why this is now too subtle to notice, because there is a burn i'm constantly sitting in and I also wanna don't want to run away from anymore.

I honestly felt this body-yes and body-no already and what Pernille and you state here makes not only sense, it was also seen at some point already. But right now, again its all a bit overwhelming.

Maybe its just a story, but 1 month ago for two days I did have a direct seeing experience of how the whole selfing mechanism works. And since then everything seems to fall apart. There are days when there are almost no stories that create a Leni, or at least they are seen with amusement, and there are days like the last two, where these stories are again so near, that they can be seen as "just stories" with a lot of effort and they are accompanied by contractions and burning sensations all day long. So all there is, is just sitting with all focus on theses sensation.

I mean I tried it again right now with the three statements of yours: "There is a self", "there is no self", and "I have no problem with my aging face" - and there was not really a big difference between all three statements in the sensations. There are just waves moving around, doing whatever the fuck they wanna do, and I don't seem to see anytghing clearly.

But I really wanna give this an honest shot. So if its ok, to give this a bit of time until the heavy sensations have settles a bit again. Today there is just a lot of crying and shaking, I guess.

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Anastacia42
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Re: There is no spoon

Postby Anastacia42 » Wed Jul 09, 2025 6:03 pm

Good morning, Leni,

Oh hon, yes, sometimes there is a bit of upheaval in coming to terms with what is true/yes and what is false/no. You don't have to find the thought to resolve it. If you can stay with the Sensations and relax into it, it should resolve. Avoiding feeling it will just keep it stuck there.

You can always take a break when you need to, but please don't ghost the thread. If you decide to quit, please let me know.

Remind yourself you are safe.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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Lenila
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Re: There is no spoon

Postby Lenila » Thu Jul 10, 2025 7:01 am

Dear Anastasia,

no I would never ghost the thread. I am so very thankful, that LU exists and people like you help through this.
So today things are a bit less rocky.
I mean I did the lie test again today, with not very clear results.
But I will be meeting a friend soon and will tell a lie there to see, what happens in the body.
I mean do we need this to be able to proceed, or could we maybe for now go on with other things in the meanwhile that are not based on this subtle differences?

best
Leni

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Anastacia42
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Re: There is no spoon

Postby Anastacia42 » Thu Jul 10, 2025 11:47 am

Good morning

I'm glad things are less rocky. We can move on. Just try to be aware of body Sensation particularly "gut feeling "

This next one is about how labels do or do not affect reality. I think you get this, but let's be sure.

Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is SEEN.


Loving,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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Lenila
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Re: There is no spoon

Postby Lenila » Thu Jul 10, 2025 12:25 pm

Ok, what is seen in direct experience:
When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?
Seeing of red shapes on white background surrounded by blue shapes on white background.
Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?
The color red is experienced
Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?
No the label "green" has no direct correspondence with reality. It suggests a made up reality in thoughts which doesn't exist in actual reality.
Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?
"Green" is just an overlay. It has nothing to do with the experience.
If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?
The color red will be perceived as before. Just the shapes and form of the word(perceived image) changes
Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?
The labels have no effect on reality itself. The different overlays that come with the words might be more "charged" than others and may vary in level of distraction. For example: the label "bad" might come with an association( train of thoughts) that has stronger sensations attached, than the label green. Both "green" and "bad" are exactly the same though - Labels that distract from direct reality - which is red shapes on white background.


Let me know what is SEEN.

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Anastacia42
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Re: There is no spoon

Postby Anastacia42 » Thu Jul 10, 2025 1:32 pm

Good!

"Self" is like "green." It is nothing but a thought overlay on what is seen, heard, felt, smelled & tasted.

You knew this. It's "no spoon." Here's our version:

Actual/Direct Experience - Apple

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise. Google for a picture of an apple.

Image

When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Have fun and let me know what you find out.


Loving,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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Lenila
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Re: There is no spoon

Postby Lenila » Fri Jul 11, 2025 7:29 am

Color is known and thoughts are known. What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Well as the content of the thought is not found in actual experience it cannot be actually known (I would rather say experienced because know somehow applied understanding - wich is also only labeling right?). The content is always about past, future or a fantasy versions of reality - which makes it always ABOUT but never IS.
And only what IS can be experienced/known.
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
No, there is no "Apple", just color and shape. "Apple" is just a thought.
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
No
However, is an apple actually known?
No, never

Thanks for that!

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Anastacia42
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Re: There is no spoon

Postby Anastacia42 » Fri Jul 11, 2025 10:50 am

Good.

"Self" is just like "apple" & "spoon."

LOOK

Csn. you find any "self" in Actual Experience?

If not. how does it FEE to see this?


If you *think* so. there are more pointers. Such as this one, which is a lot of fun:

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?


Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what ​ chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?


Loving
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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Lenila
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Re: There is no spoon

Postby Lenila » Fri Jul 11, 2025 4:04 pm

Can you find any "self" in Actual Experience?
No
If not. how does it FEEL to see this?
contraction in the chest with a thought label: doubt
How is the movement controlled?
It isn't controlled. It just happens.
Does a thought control it?
No it happens, and a thought comes afterwards with the content: "that was me"
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
No
How is the decision made to turn the hand over?
There was never a decision made.
Who or what ​ chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Noone chose. It just happened
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?
No, If looked, there is just silence.


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