Read Jed's Trilogy; something resonates

[Magdalena]

Hello John,

there gonna be a decision to made whether to sleep or not.

Oh sure, a decision can happen, no doubt.

But has it ever happened that the decision was to not go to bed, and yet falling asleep was what happened next? Or the other way around: decision to go to bed, and still no falling asleep?

So much for the strength of decisions. 😉

So, yes, decisions are made – but if “me”/”John” was the maker of that decision, wouldn’t the “me”/”John” make sure that the decision was properly executed to the end?

Or maybe it’s more like a thought says “I made the decision…” while what is perceived as “decision” (=another thought) simply happens, and then whatever happens next (working or sleeping) – simply happens (or not)?

LOOK into the process more closely.

I started as u TOLD ME, and the instructions I followed, so I put my hands and flip-flop.

Ha ha ha, if I told you to go give your place a real good clean right now, would you? 😉

After a while it becomes uncouscious while the hand is still flip-flop in routine.

Not really unconscious, was it – I mean you were not lying under your table drunk or something. But, yes – kind of automatic?

it still seems my intention initiated the movement to start or to stop.

But your intention is nothing to go by. You said you’re a smoker, right? I imagine that, like many smokers, you had an intention at least once in your life to stop smoking – is that right? And if you did – well, it didn’t quite work because you say you still smoke. Same could be true about any other habits that people have, like not going to the gym or wasting their time playing games or something.

Seems no, only intentions.

OK, so I have another experiment for you to examine your ideas of intentions, choices and control (all part of the same package) that you seem to believe in.


Try this:
Get two foods you like, one that is a 'bad' food, like a piece of chocolate and the other a 'good food,' like a piece of apple.

Thoughts might come up while looking at them, saying stuff about eating one food or the other. Disregard the thoughts. Eventually one of the foods will get eaten first.

Look carefully for any evidence in actual experience to see if those thoughts/intentions/decisions controlled the behaviour, rather than just guessing what might happen.


And another experiment:
Count to 5, and raise either your left or right arm, or not.

Any intention in this? Any control? Any decision?


Try these experiments as many times as you like, and then spend the next day looking carefully into various situations in which people believe they act on some intention/decision/choice.

Could be anything - whether to have tea or coffee, whether to say something pleasant or unpleasant to someone you meet, whether to drive/walk this way or the other, whether to pick up this product or the other from a supermarket shelf when shopping, and so on.

Get creative - watch - and then come back to tell me what you have observed.

[JohnWhite]

Dear Magdalena,

I have doing practices and noticing things as u suggest, though not fully get the meaning, but I have some thoughts and I'd like u to know it, whether it is bullshit or not.

But has it ever happened that the decision was to not go to bed, and yet falling asleep was what happened next? Or the other way around: decision to go to bed, and still no falling asleep?

Sure! Just like u said! As I am working from 8:30 - 19:00 everyday, the work took so much of my energy, and those "No Self" problems hitting me never-endingly, every time I go back to home just feeling tired, exhausted and a strongly ambition to get all the problems solved and end my suffering. But, time just fly away and when I noticed I have gone through different kind of videos and books but not dig very deep into them and time has hit in 23:00, etc. And when in 23:00 or so, I decide not to sleep but feel asleep, there are so much contradiction. When I go to my bed, a hugh feeling that I haven't make any progress in my searching for truth hit me and I can't real fall asleep soon.

So I know what u said in "So much for the strength of decisions. 😉". T T

So, yes, decisions are made – but if “me”/”John” was the maker of that decision, wouldn’t the “me”/”John” make sure that the decision was properly executed to the end?

Exactly, and the fact I can't make my decisions become real just make me depressed and feeling weak, and I will think that I am not strong enough or I haven't find the right status to achieve my decision. (Maybe it is illustion?)

Or maybe it’s more like a thought says “I made the decision…” while what is perceived as “decision” (=another thought) simply happens, and then whatever happens next (working or sleeping) – simply happens (or not)?

Are u meaning, that 1."I made the decision" 2."the decision about ..." 3."the decision just take place right now"?

This kind of illustration make sense, but I read it just as a plain one, there is no urgency and me-sense as in my real situation.

Ha ha ha, if I told you to go give your place a real good clean right now, would you? 😉

Ha ha! I would like to but there will be a huge refuseness to that because I think it is not important comparing to the conversation or investigation about "No Self" right now. But if u insisted so I would do it cause I trust on u as our conversation begins.

Not really unconscious, was it – I mean you were not lying under your table drunk or something. But, yes – kind of automatic?

Yes, u said it quite right. It's kind of automatic.
I once had a conversation with my friend and the memory shocks me a lot till now. It was a late night and we talked in the college corridor, when conversation went into knowing or unknowing topic, he raised his arm and said "I just want to raise my arm, and my arm raised, while I don't know how the mechanism in it." Ur question and comment just reminds me that one.

But your intention is nothing to go by. You said you’re a smoker, right? I imagine that, like many smokers, you had an intention at least once in your life to stop smoking – is that right? And if you did – well, it didn’t quite work because you say you still smoke. Same could be true about any other habits that people have, like not going to the gym or wasting their time playing games or something.

Actually u said it quite right! I have wasted time in game, smoking, and masturbation. I have oberseved quite deep in those situations.

It starts with a feeling that I am so boring, cause I felt I haven't fix the ultimate question "No Self" yet, and I don't want to do anything neither. Then those events could get me out of my mind when I do it.

Gaming is especially for losing my mind, but I feel more pain and vein after gaming, so I quit several years ago.

After that, I have started smoking, I could say that I am not so addicted to it, but when I feel so suffering and chaos and wanting to feel that I am in the right way to life, I might smoke to feel as if I am doing the right investigation, cause I have spend so many years in it and BY TELLING ME THAT I would have an outstanding sense in my mind (So embarrasing to say that).

Masturbation is a huge problem that hit me for almost 15 years.
As I said, I grow up in a oppressive environment, all I was allowed to do is study hard. One day I saw some sexy picture of women's boob, a huge sense fired inside my body, and from then on, the searching of sexy media becomes part of my life. Cause I do my reading and writing in computer, it's so easy to feel desperation in not finding the final answers and will get bored, and it's so easy to just look some pornography.
I also paid a lot of attention in trying to get rid of pornography, I had made my mind not to do that, but as subtle as I said, bored bring me into porn, and I wanted to challenge myself not to masturbate but I lose, and I tried to not ejaculate too soon and failed most of time. All is so crazy and chaos. The story goes so long and I write tons of investigation in my memo (in chinese though).

It's so embarrasing to say above things, but I have make my mind to beaten them all, so I would like to not hide anything inside my heart.

---

Look carefully for any evidence in actual experience to see if those thoughts/intentions/decisions controlled the behaviour, rather than just guessing what might happen.

I have done ur suggested practice for my breakfast and dinner.
In the begin, I didn't took any action but look my food, thoughts arised like "it's meat to provide protein", "it's vegetables to provide vitamins", "it's delicious as it looks and smells.", ...
After that, when time to take action, I would decide to take the egg first, and I did it, and my mind said "I just took the action as I decided."

So, I am afraid to say that I don't get the right way to do and understand the practice, I'm sorry. :(

Count to 5, and raise either your left or right arm, or not.

Any intention in this? Any control? Any decision?

I did't realize after I raised my right arm. Cause there was no decision before I took action to raise which arm, it's hard to say that is any control in it. But a vague intention/decision to raise arm is there.

Try these experiments as many times as you like, and then spend the next day looking carefully into various situations in which people believe they act on some intention/decision/choice.

Actually me and my friend always talk about some unexpected events in our lifes. But it happens irrelated only in long time term, like "I wanted to earn money before but finally doing this suck jobs", etc.
As for ordinary decision moment like eat/walk/snatch/drink, it is quite no doubt that we did as we decided.

---

I am reading I.C's <<Liberation Unleashed>> during our conversation, and I read I.C talked about an example that one man regrad the cloud above the sky is under his control. It is quite obvious that the man has illusion. But as for the body-mind complex here, the intention or decision is so real to make the body moveing or the mind thinking.
I feel so sorry that I just, couldn't get what u mean so well, as I know u took so much energy and love for my guidence. I feel so numb about my reading and answers. It is not complain, but I just want to express all my status to u.

Best regards.

[Magdalena]

Dear John,

I feel so sorry that I just, couldn't get what u mean so well, as I know u took so much energy and love for my guidence. I feel so numb about my reading and answers. It is not complain, but I just want to express all my status to u.

John, it’s OK – and I do appreciate your being so honest about it all.

It is all good, seriously. What this has done is to show you as clearly as possible – indeed throwing it in your face – that you have no control over what happens, despite your intentions, your choices, your decisions, your determination – all of it.

Can you see this?

And, as it happens, it is all good.

It’s just that our goal-orientation – to get the experiments right, to solve the questions that puzzle us, to achieve what we want so desperately – all of this forms a sort of veil which makes it hard to see that, simply, whatever happens – happens.

Look, you say you have studied so hard only to find yourself in this job that you dislike. If you look back into all circumstances that brought you to that workplace where you now are – can you honestly say that things could have been any different than they are right now?

I don’t mean fantasising, like “If this or that hadn’t happened, or if these things had turned out differently…” – because the fact is it did happen, and things were as they were.

Do you get my point?

I am not saying you need to view yourself as a victim of circumstances, other people, and so on – not at all.

I am only asking you to consider whether the situation as it is today has had any chance of being any different, given all the situations and circumstances that came before.

How’s that?

Exactly, and the fact I can't make my decisions become real just make me depressed and feeling weak, and I will think that I am not strong enough or I haven't find the right status to achieve my decision.

No need to beat yourself up for anything that happens. It is all good – not as a moral or another type of judgement, but simply in the sense that there was no other option on the table. That’s all.

It’s not that you are weak or anything. Nothing is your fault. Neither you nor anyone else did anything wrong. If circumstances aligned, so to speak, actions and their results could have been different, and thoughts would then come and say, “There, I made it all happen the way I like it”. I’m sure you’ve experienced that at some point too , right?

But notice that it’s the same sequence of events: something happens, you like it or you don’t like it, and then thoughts arrive to tell you “I did it”. And it feels so real – like the flat earth. ;-)

Can you see this?

I would like to but there will be a huge refuseness to that because I think it is not important comparing to the conversation or investigation about "No Self" right now.

Yes, there will be refusal – cleanliness doesn’t matter at the moment, does it? That’s OK. If it mattered (=if things were different), you’d just get out that bloody mop the next minute. But it’s not happening.

Did YOU/John make it happen or not happen?

Could YOU/John make it happen differently?

(No worries, I’m not going to insist that you go clean your place right now. LOL I’m not your mother or your roommate. LOL)

However, next time you’re cleaning, washing up, brushing your teeth, etc., just notice (don’t make any effort – it is not a practice) – just notice how the process goes, how the hands handle various objects, move them, carry out certain procedures in a certain order, and so on.

Are decisions/intentions really behind these actions, or is it like that football game – happening as it happens, whether the commentary is on or off?

LOOK. It can be fascinating. Just LOOK.

he raised his arm and said "I just want to raise my arm, and my arm raised, while I don't know how the mechanism in it."

That’s right. Arms are raised, palms are flipped, teeth are brushed – but who knows how or why it all happens? I certainly have no idea. LOL

It starts with a feeling that I am so boring, cause I felt I haven't fix the ultimate question "No Self" yet, and I don't want to do anything neither. Then those events could get me out of my mind when I do it.

I get it that you look for distractions. Nothing wrong with that.

So your ultimate question is the No-Self thing, right?

But how will you know when you’ve seen it?

How about you’re living it already, and simply don’t notice because you’re busy telling yourself all those stories about how John is in control making intentions and decisions, and how this particular thing is the ultimate question that needs to be solved, etc.?

Remember, the game goes on, regardless of the commentary. It already is what is always is – why would it be any different? And here’s John with his funny belief that he is making Life happen.

But does Life care?

And is there a John separate from Life? ;-)

In the begin, I didn't took any action but look my food, thoughts arised like "it's meat to provide protein", "it's vegetables to provide vitamins", "it's delicious as it looks and smells.", ...
After that, when time to take action, I would decide to take the egg first, and I did it, and my mind said "I just took the action as I decided."

See? That’s exactly what happens.

You sit there looking at the foods in front of you, right?

Thoughts come and talk about what’s good about each food, right?

Then your hand reaches out for a piece of one food, and the thought comes to say “I did it”, right?


Do you always believe what thoughts say??

But as for the body-mind complex here, the intention or decision is so real to make the body moveing or the mind thinking.

Of course it FEELS real – otherwise who would ever believe it? LOL

[JohnWhite]

Dear Magdalena,

John, it’s OK – and I do appreciate your being so honest about it all.

I appreciate u deelpy in my heart. No much thing to say, I will do my best as always and be honest all the time.

It’s just that our goal-orientation – to get the experiments right, to solve the questions that puzzle us, to achieve what we want so desperately – all of this forms a sort of veil which makes it hard to see that, simply, whatever happens – happens.

It is exactly as u said, but it is so hard just to accpet the current as it is. Sorrow and expectation seems the driving power of mankind. And it is so hard to accpet the "bad" thing happens, like murder or betray, etc.

Look, you say you have studied so hard only to find yourself in this job that you dislike. If you look back into all circumstances that brought you to that workplace where you now are – can you honestly say that things could have been any different than they are right now?

Actually it can't be another fact as it is now. Since I have being so doubtful and put all my life in investigation, I haven't put much effort in laboring my real world issue, nor any prepare to live a so-called better life, so every time the big change came, all I do is just to choose the safe one as I thought and to gain the time for my investigation.

I once had a glimpse of my long time investigation pattern, that I just going aroud around around in that "desperate life pushing me into searching and searched nothing and the life sucks as usual and the situation pushed me again and again". So I truly know what u mean.

But is it possible that I jump out that loop?

It’s not that you are weak or anything. Nothing is your fault. Neither you nor anyone else did anything wrong. If circumstances aligned, so to speak, actions and their results could have been different, and thoughts would then come and say, “There, I made it all happen the way I like it”. I’m sure you’ve experienced that at some point too , right?

That's beautiful, but the lose time and energy just hurt me deeply, and the sorrow can't just go. I really would like to RECOGNIZE it, but I can't.

Today when I thought deeply in your question and recalled what I read in I.C's book, I found myself trying to deduce the as-told way to looking my life, I regard all my thoughts and feelings as a story I made, but eventually I thought it is not direct RECOGNIZATION, but mimic what I read and told. So I stop what I was doing, and a hugh desperate and vain dominated me.

But notice that it’s the same sequence of events: something happens, you like it or you don’t like it, and then thoughts arrive to tell you “I did it”. And it feels so real – like the flat earth. ;-)

Can you see this?

I tried as I answered above. Is that make sense?

However, next time you’re cleaning, washing up, brushing your teeth, etc., just notice (don’t make any effort – it is not a practice) – just notice how the process goes, how the hands handle various objects, move them, carry out certain procedures in a certain order, and so on.

Are decisions/intentions really behind these actions, or is it like that football game – happening as it happens, whether the commentary is on or off?

I recalled my memory when I did cleaning, as u said and as I said before, I felt bored and wanted distraction, and the room getting mess and dirty, thus I cleaned them, in the process, no much intention or controlness in the movements. But its wired to think it know, cause I feel I could do it consciously if I want.

So your ultimate question is the No-Self thing, right?

I'm not so sure about it. As our conversation continues, I recalled my memory and intention, beside a buring desire to find so call TRUTH, there is a huge desire to feel good and live happly, whether it is to achieve some goal in society or just have calm inside my heart, maybe it is the driving power to put me here, a clear pattern shows.

But how will you know when you’ve seen it?

I don't know, maybe it's like when u drink Pepsi and u know what is exactly the Pepsi. I love Pepsi:)

How about you’re living it already, and simply don’t notice because you’re busy telling yourself all those stories about how John is in control making intentions and decisions, and how this particular thing is the ultimate question that needs to be solved, etc.?

Remember, the game goes on, regardless of the commentary. It already is what is always is – why would it be any different? And here’s John with his funny belief that he is making Life happen.

But does Life care?

And is there a John separate from Life? ;-)

Actually I know that fact happening right now cares nothing what I think or intent, but I can't let those feeling away inside me. But I know what u r saying, and I really did that for 2-3 years in my daily life, but it is not an act out from real understanding, rather being told and followed.

When come to the question "And is there a John separate from Life?", it become so complex as there is me and others whereas we are all here right now, and I can feel the thinking gonna being a mess and a huge depress hit me and I just do want to think it anymore...

Do you always believe what thoughts say??

Not always, sometime when I look back I find my thought is making mistakes, and I will adjust my thought. There are several moments that I just made decision without so much thought and I just know it gonna be good. I don't know whether it is the intuition or not.

Best regards.

[JohnWhite]

I would distill my life pattern as "life get sucks" -> "I want find the way out" -> "searching and searching but nothing works" -> "being push in real life and try to find distraction to feel a little bit good".

I don't know how to put emoji in the forum, I am a fun guy actually.

[Magdalena]

John,


You already nailed the most honest thing anyone can say in this:

"Eventually I thought it is not direct RECOGNIZATION, but mimic what I read and told. So I stop what I was doing, and a huge desperate and vain dominated me.

Good. That’s the moment. That despair is the illusion collapsing. Don’t run from it. That’s not failure — that’s sunlight finally flooding in.

Let’s drop all the stories now — no philosophy, no books, no "me and others," no depression narratives.

Right now.

This moment — is anything happening other than what’s happening?

Look now:
Are you choosing the next thought? Or is it just… there?
Did you decide what you’d feel next? Or did the feeling just arise?

Can you actually find a John in charge of any of this?

Where is he? Point to him.

Not the idea of John. Not the story. Not the commentary. I mean the actual John you believe exists separately from life —where is he? Is he doing the typing? Is he pushing thoughts around?

Or is all that just happening — just like digestion, like the weather, like the football game?

Stop trying to solve it. Just look.

Is anything under John's control? Or is that just a thought saying so?

Don’t answer quickly. Sit there. Give it time. Feel it. Burn in it.

Stop mimicking. LOOK.

[JohnWhite]

Dear Magdalena,

This moment — is anything happening other than what’s happening?

Actually no, there is only things happening as they happening, and the thoughts keep along with them.

Are you choosing the next thought? Or is it just… there?

It is thought flying in and flying out as itself does. I can't choose the next thought. But once the word "I" come into my mind, the thoughts tends to stick to it and the whole structre of me-struff are gonna shown up.

Did you decide what you’d feel next? Or did the feeling just arise?

I think the feeling arise, as I feel thirsty right now and I don't think about it 20 minutes ago.

Can you actually find a John in charge of any of this?

Where is he? Point to him.

When I first read what u wrote there is a huge hint there is no such thing, but as I wrote the familiar thing come back again as "I wrote", "I did all those thing, whether u noticed or not".

Or is all that just happening — just like digestion, like the weather, like the football game?

U mean the thoughts of "I" is just like football game, come and go as itself? But how could it be so coherent as such a long decade.

Is anything under John's control? Or is that just a thought saying so?

I think it is a thought saying so, but I can't get it deeply. I have obeserved sleeping and waking up for a long time, it is as if the whole world just come and fade in a sudden.

I will keep think in that as u told, but these are what I want to share with u right now.

[Magdalena]

Hey John,

You say the “I” story just pops back in — and yet, you already saw it arise out of nothing. You even described the structure forming after the thought “I” appeared. So tell me:

Where is this John without the thought?

Don’t answer with more thoughts. Don’t describe it. LOOK.

Right now — without thinking, without referring to memory — is there an actual John doing life? Making thoughts? Directing feelings?

Is there a centre to experience? A someone inside? Something that owns what’s happening?

Or is that just a string of thoughts, claiming what was never theirs?

You’ve watched the weather of the mind. The clouds roll in, say “I’m John,” and you believe them. But where’s the centre of that storm?

Where is this “me” that does?

And if you say “I don’t know” — good. That’s the hole. Stay in the not-knowing. Let the collapse continue.

Forget trying to go deeper. There is no “you” to go anywhere. Just this — already happening. Already done.

Report back. Don’t think it through. Look.

[JohnWhite]

Dear Magdalena,

In this moment, I report without much thought to u.

Where is this John without the thought?

No where, just typing with mind numb, thinking nothing but how to reply appropriately to u, I'm fully in the conversation right now.
But after a while the thought came in and the whole familiar craps begin.

Right now — without thinking, without referring to memory — is there an actual John doing life? Making thoughts? Directing feelings?

Is there a centre to experience? A someone inside? Something that owns what’s happening?

Actually it's wired to answer those questions, I'm feeling like to reply to u without any thinking, but ur questions seem to drag me back to some chaos which I don't want to face right now.

Or is that just a string of thoughts, claiming what was never theirs?

Yes, as I said in last quote, that I don't wanna be dragged back into chaos, I'd rather to stay in the moment without huge thought baggages as u said.

You’ve watched the weather of the mind. The clouds roll in, say “I’m John,” and you believe them. But where’s the centre of that storm?

Where is this “me” that does?

And if you say “I don’t know” — good. That’s the hole. Stay in the not-knowing. Let the collapse continue.

Honestly, I don't know. Beside there is a feeling that there is something here, like an "I exist" sense, nothing there right now.

I seem to have a sense that things happens as it happens, decisions are made, actions are done, but it's like a flow. while the thought came, the story came, and I just being poped out from the flow and being dragged into the story and me-stuff.



I will hold in mind last two post u reply next day and doing more obersevation.

Best regrad.

[Magdalena]

Very good, John. Stay with that numb, centerless typing. That’s it.

Notice — the moment a story of John reboots, it’s just noise. Old habit. Static.

It says, “I’m here again, I’m doing life!” but all that’s really happening is a movement of fingers, a flicker of thought, maybe a pull in the chest — and then commentary about it.
Nothing more.

You don’t need to get rid of that commentary. Just stop buying the ticket. Let it yap.

But don’t forget: the one who “wants to stay in the flow” is just another thought.

The “I” who wants peace? Another damn cloud.


Stay in the heat. Let the chaos come. Let it shake and tear. Because who exactly is being torn?

Right now — don’t look for peace. Don’t wait for calm. Don’t try to hold onto presence.

Just LOOK:

What’s happening without a central reference point?

What’s there before the thought of John claims it?

If the sense “I exist” is here — what is that, exactly? Where does it live? Is it stable, solid, knowable? Or is it another echo dressed up as certainty?

Stop trying to observe. Let it rip you apart. There’s nothing to protect.

And if a collapse is happening — don’t stop it. Let it take you.

Let’s go.

Till tomorrow.

[JohnWhite]

Dear Magdalena,

I'm pondering what you're saying, especially when you say don't think, don't run away into philosophy, etc. I remember that I had done this before, not thinking too much about anything, just focusing on the present moment, but when I did it, I had a strong sense of emptiness in my heart, and I felt as if I was just parroting the so-called "No Self".

I tried to stay in this sense of emptiness, to feel the rush of "my" thoughts, but it seemed like there was no end in sight, and I felt that I still wanted an end, I wanted to see something like an "EXIT".

What’s happening without a central reference point?

Actually, I don't know exactly what the word "a central" means right now, it's like a mess. Every time a "me" feeling came out, I rudely rejected the idea, telling myself that it was wrong, but that it was robot-like behavior and didn't really understand what I was doing.

At the same time, I caught a glimpse of the trend, as if I was typing right now, but without thinking too much about "me" things and without confusion.

What’s there before the thought of John claims it?

I was confused. I don't really know. Whenever I want to say what happened in the past, I know that this is just an explanation I am giving now, not the real situation in the past.

Stop trying to observe. Let it rip you apart. There’s nothing to protect.

And if a collapse is happening — don’t stop it. Let it take you.

I don't know if I'm doing it right. I don't even know what exactly you mean by "looking". I felt so numb that I didn't seem to understand what you were saying.

It reminds me of how I used to feel. It was the first time I had gone out to study in another city, and the first time I was lying in an unfamiliar room and bed, I felt a kind of utter fear sweeping over my whole body -- I was going to face life on my own, but I didn't know anything about how to face life, I didn't know how learning and growth happened, everything was like a difficult mystery to solve, which made me extremely lost and depressed.

In the process of dialogue with you, in my long exploration, I have actually always known in my heart that my long-lasting stickiness on this issue is actually just that I have no way to deal with reality, and I am just escaping, but I just can't stop, especially when I see so many people saying that there is really a way out here, but I can't see it, the more I can't see it, the more anxious I am, and the more anxious I am, the more I can't see it, so that I think my current numbness is already a kind of physical self-protection, so that I don't want to do it again.

---

I'm sorry I may be talking a little gibberish, I feel as if I'm in a state of impatience, I can't even speak well, and I haven't rested well. I beg your pardon, but I want to insist on presenting my thoughts to you every day. If you think I'm talking nonsense, slap me mercilessly.

[Magdalena]

John,


Yes. That emptiness? That’s it. That’s the space before the story starts. You saw it, and it didn’t feel like the “No Self” you imagined, it didn’t feel like peace, it didn’t feel like anything worth celebrating. It felt hollow. Unsafe. Like freefall.
Exactly.
Because there’s no one there to land.


You want an “EXIT”? You want the movie to end, the struggle to be over, the lights to come on and say, “Ah yes, this is the conclusion.”


But that’s just more story. The I chasing finality.


There is no exit. There’s no arrival. There’s just this — the endless unfolding, the ungraspable, the not-knowing.


You said:

l don't even know what exactly you mean by ‘looking’.

Perfect. That’s the beginning. Looking isn’t a technique. It’s stopping.

Not trying to figure anything out. Not trying to fix the mess.

Just stopping. And watching what remains.



You flinched at the edge. That's OK.

Now stand there again and don’t move.

Don’t run. Don’t name. Don’t solve. Don’t reject.


You said:

l felt so numb that I didn't seem to understand what you were saying.

Good. Let that numbness eat everything. That numbness is what’s underneath all your effort, your seeking, your thinking.


Stop turning away. Just sit.
Let it take you.


And no, you’re not talking gibberish. You’re finally starting to speak without the filter. Let it keep unraveling.


Post again tomorrow. But no philosophy. No explanation.


Just:
What is there, before the commentary begins?

[JohnWhite]

Dear Magdalena,

Your recent reply seems to have given me a lot of support and also a glimpse of possible relief.

---

You asked "What is there, before the commentary begins?", but I can't seem to find such a place. All I can say now is my observations and feelings on this question.

When the story ignites, it feels like an activity where the feelings about “I” and the assumed entity represented by the word “I” seem to manifest simultaneously. I can observe the trajectory of interaction and mutual confirmation between these embodied sensations and the embodied vocabulary.

However, when I want to capture the so-called emptiness, I seem to have entered a state of thinking, trying to use my intellect to gain some certainty, which means that I have moved away from the state of intuitively feeling the emptiness.

I don't know if I'm running away from what I've always said about "me" issues, but I'm feeling some relief in the process of being there, so I'm still continuing to experience it, even though I still don't have a thorough understanding of the mysteries of "body and me", "mind and me", and so on.

[Magdalena]

OK, John. Now look closely: what exactly is that relief?


Is it silence? The absence of grasping? The pause before the next thought?
Is it something you do, or something that happens when you stop doing?


You don’t need to solve “body and me” or “mind and me.”
There’s no puzzle here. No secret.
Just THIS.


Stop trying to get it right.
Just STOP.
And look.


What’s there before the commentary, before the impulse to explain, before the need for understanding?


Stay with that. Don’t move.

[JohnWhite]

Dear Magdalena,

Is it silence? The absence of grasping? The pause before the next thought?
Is it something you do, or something that happens when you stop doing?

I feel relaxed because I seem to see that the feelings of 'I' and the assumed object of the word 'I' are mutually overlapping, and I seem to understand the mechanism of this self-overlapping sense of existence.
After that, I seem to be able to observe this very easily, and whenever I have to fall back to "there's a person observing/doing/... something", I can feel that it's a trap and I let myself get out quickly.

So, I think it is the absence of grapsing that makes me sense the relief.

As for the doing or not doing, its hard to say, cause I have not through the sense of "I am". I always have a subtle sense that 'there is a me here.' arising, and I wanna fully clean it out.

What’s there before the commentary, before the impulse to explain, before the need for understanding?

Before that, it seemed like the world was like just it is, but after a sense of deprivation or insecurity, it was like "I" had to do something, and then a lot of things came out. That's all I can observe now, and I think there's more to discover.

Best regards.