Jen seeking guidance

[graceabounds]

It appears when I have the thought like what was I doing again? And then an image of what I was doing comes up. I don’t see a way to verify the memory other than like a video or something. There’s clues in the current moment of it’s accuracy but it leaves a lot of error and “misremembering”

WHEN does a memory arise?

Take a moment and really look—don’t just answer quickly. Notice what’s happening as it’s happening. Is there a moment where “you” go retrieve a memory?

Or does a thought-image just show up?

Can you verify that it refers to something real? Or is it just a thought appearing now?

You might find clues in your environment that seem to support it, but—can the memory itself be confirmed from direct experience?

My aversion to the feeling of an urge staying around leads me to do the action that’ll relieve the urge.

Where is YOU? Is there any ownership in that urge? Can you find something in experience that holds it? Controls it? Decides?

Or is it more like: an urge shows up, discomfort builds, and something happens to relieve it?

Trace it. In slow motion. What came first: the urge? The resistance? The rationalization? Did a “you” construct that sequence? Or is this just mind cobbling a narrative around impulses that arose on their own?


But don’t stop here. Keep looking

If thoughts, urges, memories, preferences—all appear on their own…. Where is “you”?!

Not “the body.” Not “the mind.” You. The one you were sure was making things happen. The one you believed was in charge. Is it anywhere? Ever?

Was it ever?

[Jenness]

WHEN does a memory arise?

Take a moment and really look—don’t just answer quickly. Notice what’s happening as it’s happening. Is there a moment where “you” go retrieve a memory?

Or does a thought-image just show up?

Can you verify that it refers to something real? Or is it just a thought appearing now?

You might find clues in your environment that seem to support it, but—can the memory itself be confirmed from direct experience?

It arises after the thought on its own, no conscious retrieval action is needed, just the brain working on its own it feels like? No way to be confirmed from anything that captures it 100% even if I had a video or something, it would still be missing information that it can’t confirm

Where is YOU? Is there any ownership in that urge? Can you find something in experience that holds it? Controls it? Decides?

Or is it more like: an urge shows up, discomfort builds, and something happens to relieve it?

Trace it. In slow motion. What came first: the urge? The resistance? The rationalization? Did a “you” construct that sequence? Or is this just mind cobbling a narrative around impulses that arose on their own?

The urge comes up in the same way the image-thought/memory comes up, but following first a resistance to something in the moment, an urge comes up to avoid it, then a resistance to the urge comes up, then a thought of like this isn’t okay i gotta change something, and then other thoughts about counterpoints like but i shouldn’t change it because x or y and then actions follow.

But don’t stop here. Keep looking

If thoughts, urges, memories, preferences—all appear on their own…. Where is “you”?!

Not “the body.” Not “the mind.” You. The one you were sure was making things happen. The one you believed was in charge. Is it anywhere? Ever?

Was it ever?

Hmm I haven’t seen evidence of control but the belief somehow isn’t completely shaken up. Maybe it’s that the belief that I have control is changing the way things go, and so it feels like it’s doing something. So for example, if I have an emotion that’s unpleasant and then an aversion to it comes up an urge to have the emotion go away comes up, and i have the thought i can change it or i should try to change it, then I’ll apply different tools that will have an effect on the emotion. Or sometimes it’s i have a n unpleasant emotion and then aversion comes up then i tense around it because the body has learned that tension will cover up the expeirence of the emotion , and then it appears that action changed the emotion or expeirence. Or i have an unpleasant emotion, and then aversion to it comes up, and then I direct a lot of attention to it, which I think leads to more thoughts about it and thoughts around how to get rid of it than if I had the thought at the aversion point of it’s fine, let’s just leave it. So I think it’s that how much i have the belief thought that something needs to be changed, that I have control over changing something, influences the following causes and conditions. So if all of that is without control and just playing out on it’s own whether or not I believe there’s control , then why does it matter whether I believe I have control and try to control something? Is it that it’ll just cause more suffering to operate out of a false belief or reality because then I’m trying to push against a wall and that’s just tiring? but then why do people say conduct and volition and choosing to act in wholesome ways is important when we can’t choose? Is that just to get those good intentions in there as part of the sequences of things just appearing so that it shifts the causes and conditions towards something hopefully kinder? Just using this to kind of think through things and see if something will click for me..!

[graceabounds]

So if all of that is without control and just playing out on it’s own whether or not I believe there’s control , then why does it matter whether I believe I have control and try to control something?

Belief in control = friction.
It’s a resistance layer, a war against what already is.

Trying to control what’s already happening is the definition of suffering. That belief is the tension. That belief is the story that reality is wrong and must be changed.

Just using this to kind of think through things and see if something will click for me..!

There are a lot of mental gymnastics going on here. If this whole thing could be solved by the same mechanism that has created it all we wouldn’t be here now. :) The light bulb moment will not come from thinking through things, I promise.

Sitting in a room, curtains closed, you wonder what the weather is like outside. You can think about it, look it up on the internet, watch the forecast on TV, call your mother and ask her - or you can simply open the curtains and have a look…


So, where to from here? Let’s spend some time getting acquainted with reality, then we’ll work through the resistance and circle back to the illusion of control from a different vantage point.


Observe how the mind is dividing and labelling every thing into objects and is embellishing them with stories about what they are.
Give it some time.
Then, stop watching the objects as labelled objects. Just look at the seeing itself. Observe the pure process of seeing. This is direct experience.


Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought
Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back how you go.

[Jenness]

Sounds good, thank you! I’ll do it and report back!

[Jenness]

Belief in control = friction.
It’s a resistance layer, a war against what already is.

Trying to control what’s already happening is the definition of suffering. That belief is the tension. That belief is the story that reality is wrong and must be changed.

This was super helpful, thanks!!

There are a lot of mental gymnastics going on here. If this whole thing could be solved by the same mechanism that has created it all we wouldn’t be here now. :) The light bulb moment will not come from thinking through things, I promise.

Haha yea that makes sense

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought
Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back how you go.

Loved this exercise! The world is much simpler than I’d thought and it’s just my mind making it complicated. Really helpful to see how often I’m just with thought and that that’s just a mind sensation kinda thing as well as long as I’m not taking it’s content as true. Emotional sensations in the body also feel just like pressure/sensations of body contacting things outside of body and that’s really helpful to see and take out some of the power of “internal” sensations. The emotional sensations come when i believe the thoughts, the thoughts come on their own. Should I just keep doing it? Thanks for your time!

[graceabounds]

Yes, nice observations.

There is a little formula that I don’t think I have given you yet that sums up what you are seeing:
Emotion = Thought + Sensation

Should I just keep doing it?

Absolutely keep it up if it helps ground into direct experience, what is actually present here now. Since you loved that exercise here is another simple one to explore:

This is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”. For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking, I am looking at a computer screen, I am feeling hungry. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs. For example: sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock. (Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:
1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body

[Jenness]

There is a little formula that I don’t think I have given you yet that sums up what you are seeing:
Emotion = Thought + Sensation

Love this! I notice it’s just a label of this is a negative thing to be experiencing that makes it feel bad. But it’s hard to loosen it up even if i see it’s just a thought. I wonder if it’s some sort of belief about what it means if my beliefs are inaccurate that’s keeping them stuck, or if it’s just habit that takes time to fall off..?

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:
1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body

1. While observing, the no “I” one feels more accurate. Then when I come to type things out, now it feels like “I’m” doing it, even though I still can’t find an I that’s doing it. Why is it so sneaky haha. I think maybe it’s just threatening to face the idea that my whole identity as a being with control doesn’t have evidence for it other than some belief I got from society as a kid and a feeling that it’s true because I’ve believed it for so long
2. Just flowing experiences and sensations , and maybe a bit of sadness that that’s it? Like now it would mean what I thought I could get from life to make it “meaningful” or have a purpose isn’t really possible?
3. The labels of good or bad sensation feel like they make it feel pleasant or unpleasant, but I can’t quite find what part of the sensation they change. The core sensations remain the same but there’s a misty filter feeling over it of pleasant or unpleasant
4. the first one was more effort because I had to keep adding an I when I couldn’t find an I in the experience, so it was just route remembering to frame it in terms of I. But I also wasn’t sure there was the verb of it, like hearing, it felt more like just sound, etc for the 5 senses, and then thoughts have more of an I feeling to it, and then action externally even more of an I feeling to it. The more self referential, the more I in there though, the more bound I feel in my body and the more sad less ease i feel

[graceabounds]

Yes—what you’re describing is the friction of seeing through the illusion while still believing the consequences of believing it. You’re aware that “this is just a thought,” and yet the emotional charge persists. That’s not a problem. That is the gate. ;)

So right now:
Bring up one of those emotional “stuck” moments—something recent that felt unpleasant or reactive.

Next slow it way down. Don’t tell a story about it. Don’t analyze or explain.

1. Where in the body do you feel it?
2. Drop beneath the label—instead of “tight,” “sad,” or “scared.” What’s actually there? Warmth? Pulsing? Tingling? Pressure?
3. Now say this silently: “This is not a problem.”
4. Watch what the mind tries to do next.

You already see there’s no “I” making this happen. But then the habit of “I’m stuck” gets labeled as YOURS.
Let it break. Not by fixing it. Not by healing it. But by letting it just be—completely unexplained, raw sensation + passing thought.

What’s happening in the body right now?

[Jenness]

Yes—what you’re describing is the friction of seeing through the illusion while still believing the consequences of believing it. You’re aware that “this is just a thought,” and yet the emotional charge persists. That’s not a problem. That is the gate. ;)

thank you, this was validating!

1. Where in the body do you feel it?
2. Drop beneath the label—instead of “tight,” “sad,” or “scared.” What’s actually there? Warmth? Pulsing? Tingling? Pressure?
3. Now say this silently: “This is not a problem.”
4. Watch what the mind tries to do next.

You already see there’s no “I” making this happen. But then the habit of “I’m stuck” gets labeled as YOURS.
Let it break. Not by fixing it. Not by healing it. But by letting it just be—completely unexplained, raw sensation + passing thought.

What’s happening in the body right now?

I did this a few times and it was really helpful. I hadn’t realized i was making a story of tightness and all these ideas of why that’s a problem. When I tell the mind it’s not a problem, it first got sad because it then thought we can’t fix it anymore if we stop seeing it as a problem and then we’d just keep suffering, then it saw well it’s not really suffering on its own, but then it didn’t trust that it wouldn’t keep getting caught in the thoughts about it and it didn’t like the idea of continuing to fail to catch the thoughts , once it saw that it was more okay with well I’ll prob keep suffering but all you can do is keep moving in that direction and any shift and lessening of suffering is pretty cool. Another time i did it, it just didn’t feel like a problem but once i said this is not a problem, after an initial relief, the mind went nooo it is! And it felt like there was still something to protect from. I kept repeating it with those new sensations , and the mind is scared if i don’t see the sensations as a problem, I won’t respond as needed if there is a problem in the environment , but there’s also some trust if I tune in that I’ll respond to actual problems anyway. There’s still something sensations in the body that feel like sadness around some acceptance that these sensations I think of as unpleasant might be something that’ll be here for a while if not always , but as they feel like less of a problem, there’s also less sadness. there starts to be an okayness that comes with the thought of, okay i can accept that life will have a lot of these sensations and that I’ll get caught by thoughts around it. that’s not that awful
Should i be dropping all those thoughts as well?

[graceabounds]

No—do not drop those thoughts. You drop INTO them. :)

You’re describing the very mechanism of awakening: the raw thought-sensation-emotion complex that generates the sense of “this is a problem.” And you already sense it—when “this is not a problem” is seen clearly, the whole loop starts to wobble.

Let the sadness be there. Let the fear that “something will be missed” arise. Let the need to protect stay exactly as it is. Now, what is it without the explanation?

Let’s test it again:
Right now—where is the problem?
Don’t answer from the mind! Scan the body. What’s the texture, the movement? Not the name. Not the meaning. Not the story. What’s here?

Keep going until you can’t find a problem. Not because it’s solved. But because it never existed except in the story.

Next, can you find the one who is “stuck”?
Where exactly is that “you” who was failing to do it right?
Describe the location, texture, edge, shape of that “self.” Find it, or admit it was never more than a loop.

Keep it up, all of this looking…
What are you noticing right now in the body?

[Jenness]

Thank you, Becca! Been looking at this, trying to see if the body and mind can let this sink in

Let’s test it again:
Right now—where is the problem?
Don’t answer from the mind! Scan the body. What’s the texture, the movement? Not the name. Not the meaning. Not the story. What’s here?

I landed on something like this to make sense of things: it’s a bunch of sensory experiences that’s known by the mind , the sensory experiences come on their own , due to causes and condition, from the learning system of survival instincts. But most of it is erroneous learning from childhood circumstances or overvaluing social acceptance for survival in this modern society, so in the day to day there is literally no problem. In areas where there are some problems, eg health, resources for survival, it overestimates the level of control and also tries to maximize at a detriment, like maybe being lax with a health area takes a few years off my life but being anxious and on guard about it takes more years off. And then for immediate survival issues like a car coming at it, it does great and just listen to it in those situations. Does this seem kind of on point? Or is it actually completely unneeded because if I get familiar enough with a felt sense of things, I’ll automatically know this?

Next, can you find the one who is “stuck”?
Where exactly is that “you” who was failing to do it right?
Describe the location, texture, edge, shape of that “self.” Find it, or admit it was never more than a loop.

These tensions in the head and body keep being labeled as I, because there’s a strong belief that if it’s just a bunch of survival instincts playing itself out while “I” watch, that bad things will happen. I think some of this is just accepting the fact that for the survival issues, bad things will happen and there’s not that much control over it. I think it helps it to kind of know that I wasn’t really helping the survival instincts that much by making there be a self. It’ll do its thing anyway pretty well, and especially if I’m more aware and in tune instead of checked out chasing after thoughts, it might actually have even more data for health issues, and if not, I’m also happy to sacrifice a few years of life for life to be happier and less suffering.

[graceabounds]

Hi Jen.

Lots here. But it is a lot of thinking about the questions and coming up with theories instead of looking directly at the body and what is present with the senses.

What is here that is not a story?

You’re right there on the edge, and the mind is still trying to sneak back in and make a map of what’s happening.

You’re describing the self like it’s a failed project—“it didn’t help much, so I’ll downgrade it, step back a little, let it do its thing.” But that move still leaves a ghost of “you” watching it all. That’s the loop.

Right now: stop. Drop out of the narrative. Don’t explain. Scan the body.

Where is the watcher? The manager?
Don’t tell me it’s a belief—find it.

Feel that tension in the head and chest you say keeps getting labeled “I.” Stay with it! Strip every label. Don’t fix, don’t soothe. Describe the raw sensation… without adding meaning.

Can you find even one speck of “you” in the sensation itself?

bad things will happen and there’s not that much control over it

Bit of a hedge here. Zero control. Zero controller. Life is happening, there is nothing ‘you’ can do about it.

Now look at the body.
Where does what you just read land?

You are not and never have been in control.
Where is the contraction, the flinch, the recoil?

Don’t think about it.
Don’t solve it.
Just feel it.

if I get familiar enough with a felt sense of things

This trying to get familiar with the felt sense is itself a disguise! It’s like the final layer of the seeker script, pretending to help while preserving itself.

So…
Who’s trying to get familiar?

Stay there. Report what’s actually happening in this moment, sensation-only. No analysis. Just the bare movement.

-Becca

[Jenness]

Hi Becca,
Went through these a few times and it helped it sink in more each time.

You’re describing the self like it’s a failed project—“it didn’t help much, so I’ll downgrade it, step back a little, let it do its thing.” But that move still leaves a ghost of “you” watching it all. That’s the loop.

I hadn’t realized the watcher, thank you!! It’s just awareness, just the knowing of it. I don’t know how there’s just knowing without a watcher but I guess i just need to get used to I had a view of reality that was just not aligned with how things actually work

Feel that tension in the head and chest you say keeps getting labeled “I.” Stay with it! Strip every label. Don’t fix, don’t soothe. Describe the raw sensation… without adding meaning.

Can you find even one speck of “you” in the sensation itself?

Wow. Nope, not a speck. Just a label of self clinging on for dear life. Just a lot of fear that things won’t turn out how I’d want if there’s no self controlling things. But I think that’s also just reality maybe? There will be preferences but the world will just go without regard for those preferences

Bit of a hedge here. Zero control. Zero controller. Life is happening, there is nothing ‘you’ can do about it.

Now look at the body.
Where does what you just read land?

You are not and never have been in control.
Where is the contraction, the flinch, the recoil?

Don’t think about it.
Don’t solve it.
Just feel it.

Heart rate elevates, head tension, pressure in chest and head, then a sinking feeling in chest and stomach and also a flow of movement up towards eyes from chest , tightening in throat . Just feel it and it’ll go away with time?

Code: Select all

This trying to get familiar with the felt sense is itself a disguise! It’s like the final layer of the seeker script, pretending to help while preserving itself. So… Who’s trying to get familiar? Stay there. Report what’s actually happening in this moment, sensation-only. No analysis. Just the bare movement.

there’s a knowing of the sensations above with also an additional sensation of weightedness pressure in the belly , and label of a head tension as the one trying to get familiar. Why’s it so sticky haha

[graceabounds]

Hello!
Great looking.

I don’t know how there’s just knowing without a watcher but I guess i just need to get used to I had a view of reality that was just not aligned with how things actually work

Yes. the watcher isn’t real—just another flavor of thought. And you didn’t see it. Seeing happened. No one behind the seeing. No one behind the fear, either. Just patterns firing off, grasping for a center that isn’t there.

Heart rate elevates, head tension, pressure in chest and head, then a sinking feeling in chest and stomach and also a flow of movement up towards eyes from chest , tightening in throat . Just feel it and it’ll go away with time?

Now stay right here. Feel that surge—the tension in the head, the drop in the belly, the tightness in the throat.
Let it fully be felt without trying to know it, fix it, or outwait it. Not as a strategy to get it to go away, but with a welcoming attitude to what is just present. :)

Again:
Can you find a center in the body? Not a thought about one— I mean the actual, felt location of a self. Search right now.

Just a lot of fear that things won’t turn out how I’d want if there’s no self controlling things. But I think that’s also just reality maybe? There will be preferences but the world will just go without regard for those preferences

It is not something new, there has already always been no controller.

Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high.
Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side. Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Can you find anywhere where Jen autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

3. Can anything be found for which Jen is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

4. Finally, look directly, see, hear, smell, taste, touch for it: Where is the one who’s afraid of losing control?

Keep it up, this is only a whisper away.
Much love,
Becca

[graceabounds]

Just checking in, there were some issues with this site being down a couple of weeks ago but appear to be resolved now.
-Becca