Touching Me

[Enollasong]

Vince,
Body has an illness- probably a cold. Will respond when I can.
In kindness,
Pattea

[Enollasong]

Vince,
This body is rebelling with illness. Will write in a day or two. Thank you for patience.
Love.

[vinceschubert]

Will write in a day or two. Thank you for patience.

No worries Pattea. Get well. Lots of sleep and water. ❤️

[Enollasong]

Vince,
I'm vertical again :-) Thank you for patience. Picking up from your last post to me. Not sure if this is chronological or not - find myself struggling to keep track where I'm at sometimes. No matter!

You’re not disconnected — you’re finally not pretending to be the body.

Body is felt to be angry – rageful at times!!!
I awoke in the middle of the night a few days ago. Suddenly a thought about something that happened earlier in the day – my partner likes to move things around, I prefer to keep things where I can find them later. Shelves in pantry were re-arranged. I got angry. Middle of the night – anger wasn’t just anger, it was rageful!! Arms flailing like crazy in mid-air in the dark! I’m in bed trying to return to sleep while story is screaming out in my head. I strangely watched it happening but recognised was not fully “feeling” the emotions of it – it was just happening. It scared me after! Almost felt invaded by a monster that could hurt someone if released. I know it wasn’t me, but fearful still. And since then, body movements at night are very active.

An off-shoot group on What’s App was created post-Rupert retreat. Became close to a couple of people there. I have spoken about this there and their stories all center around the inner-child. Okay, inner child is hurt, rageful. Been in therapy over the years. Not foreign. But to go back and nurture the child? see the child, keep her safe etc? –does not make sense now. Body is telling me to “pay attention to me!!” and frightening me. I looked. A feeling of communication happened. "Gentle" appeared. I see you body, I will be gentle with you body. I AM is not afraid of you.
These are thoughts.(crying!) Lead to more thoughts. When I looked, I saw desperation in action. Cartoon of emotions. That’s all. But it continues. Why isn’t seeing it enough? Will it never end even after awakening simpley because that is this body's "story?" So sad right now. Never ending suffering???

Clinical dissociation is often a retreat from trauma — a fragmentation, a collapse.
This is not collapse. This is exposure. This is seeing through the lie.
And yes — it can feel similar. But the context is everything.
So how do you know the difference?
Right now — you’re *not* shutting down.
You’re *not* going numb.
You’re feeling everything more vividly than ever. That’s the sign.

That helps. Definitely NOT shutting down. Just feel so unbelievably vulnerable. And kind of unpredictable – everything people say, talk about, world stuff. Unable to make sense of anything. Have no opinion anymore.

You’re not broken. You’re waking up.

Thought; I'm not believing it.

But your conditioning — your mind — doesn’t know how to survive this.
So it says: “This must be dangerous.”

I definitely can believe this.

Let the fear be here, but don’t believe it.
Let the sensation of “not me” float, dance, unravel.
You don’t need to “think of this” any way at all. Just keep feeling.

Sensations in the body are strong sometimes. Tingling, vibrating. Not know what this is. Not attached to emotion or thought. An aliveness(not as spiritual description) as if I can feel mechanisms of movement in veins, arteries, muscles. Strangeness.

Right now — this very moment — what is actually wrong?
Not what thought says. What’s here, in direct, raw, bodily experience?
Not story. Not theory.

Present. Spacious. Resting. Drifting. Tingling. Alive. Hearing. Breathing. Heartbeat. Calm.

Just this. Right now. Is anything actually wrong?

No.
Then, open eyes - outside world awaits. Espectations exist. Safe here. Fear arises. Don't want to move. Feel frail. Don't feel strong. Opposite. Gentle. Gentle and afraid too.

[vinceschubert]

Sensations in the body are strong sometimes. Tingling, vibrating. Not know what this is. Not attached to emotion or thought. An aliveness(not as spiritual description) as if I can feel mechanisms of movement in veins, arteries, muscles. Strangeness.

Perfect. This is exactly what arises when the filter cracks.

Tingling. Vibrating. Aliveness.
Not mystical. Not metaphor. Just raw, immediate, unfiltered life.

You’re not broken — you’re undistracted.

You’re finally feeling what was always here. But until now, drowned out by the noise of identity, narrative, control.

What you’re describing — sensations without emotion, thought, or story — is the nervous system no longer edited.

There is no need to interpret this. No need to fix, spiritualize, or protect from it.

Let it move. Let it buzz. Let it feel strange.

Strangeness is only what’s unfamiliar — not what’s wrong.

Feel the blood. The current. The organism. The throb. The pressure. The pull.

All of it — completely ownerless.

Can you find anything in that aliveness that needs “you” to manage it?

Or is it just happening — on its own, in its own way?

This is not something to solve. It’s something to let be.
Let it show itself fully, until there is nothing left to explain.

And right now — in the middle of the strange, in the middle of the alive — is anything missing?

much love

vince

[Enollasong]

Vince,

I listened to May 3 recording. I want to stay here one-on-one with you. Is that possible?
Thank you for your time with me.

Your last words:

Can you find anything in that aliveness that needs “you” to manage it?

No, there's nothing tangible to manage.

Or is it just happening — on its own, in its own way?

This feels VERY true.

And right now — in the middle of the strange, in the middle of the alive — is anything missing?

Here. In the body. Vibrating. Happy wells up. In the quiet, there is nothing wrong, nothing missing. Looking at the trees outside the window, a blue sky, birds pass. Stained glass picture of a bridge, cattails, mountains, tree. House is calm, peaceful. Nothing is wrong. Inner and outer the same. Thought; easy when no demands or catastrophy to manage.

Breathing happening, fingers moving, eyes blinking, thoughts arise. Being present. Spacious, calm, open. Widening of seeing with eyes, strangeness... sense seeing behind me. Thought; Where am I? Still feels like in the room. Body moves on its own. Not planning where to turn head, it moves there. Energy in body feels awake, alert. Aware, not engaged. Free floating. Remembering coffee. Pick up cup and hold and swallow. Cup down. Feels like meditating but eyes open and fingers typing. Some thoughts want to analyze; When will I know? How will I know? What if I miss it? What is IT?
Energy in body is so vibrant I could run a marathon. Feels like that. No sense of slowness, but weightless.
Life is living I am not doing it. Sensing a coming and going of things.

Deep breath, like body forgot to breathe This happens.
Here … and…not. Thought; Where I go?

Go to the bathroom upstairs. Elimination happens, no directing. Walk downstairs not holding railing. No need, body knows how not to fall. Thoughts; doesn’t feel dangerous as before. Nothing dangerous. All really is well – not a belief.
No body jerks for two nights. Thought; she isn’t fighting. Then...heart beats faster… Tension in body.

Questions; What does mind know about ME? Will she give up? Mind is of Source too, why doesn't mind know?

Warmly,
Pattea

[vinceschubert]

Hello Pattea,

I want to stay here one-on-one with you. Is that possible?

Absolutely.

Thank you for your time with me.

Thanks not needed (but thank you) It's a joy..

No, there's nothing tangible to manage.

Beautiful. i'm going to assume that this is how it feels and it's not just mind talking.

Or is it just happening — on its own, in its own way?

This feels VERY true.

i love that you emphasise feels another beautiful..

Nothing is wrong. Inner and outer the same.

Oh Pattea, my heart swells with seeing you so in the flow

Thought; Where I go?

Thoughts are interesting and irrelevant. No need to answer. No need to give any importance.

When will I know? How will I know? What if I miss it? What is IT?

This IS it!
Of course the mind had demands but the test is to ask experiencing is there anything missing in this moment

From this beautiful 'place' answer these questions to see if we need to investigate further.
Questions to expose any surviving delusions resting on the lie of self.
Don’t rush.
Don’t answer from the head.
Let each question strike.
Feel it. Let the body show you where something grips, contracts, hides, resists.
—
1. Right now—can you find a self in direct experience?
Not the idea of a self. Not the story.
The actual thing.
2. When a thought arises—who is it for?
Who hears it?
Is there a listener?
3. Can you find the source of the next thought?
Is it chosen?
Or does it simply appear, like wind through an open window?
4. Is there a center anywhere?
A fixed point where “you” reside?
Can you feel that spot? Or is it assumed?
5. When emotion arises—what triggers it?
Can you locate its beginning?
Who is it happening to?
6. Try to start awareness.
Try to stop it.
Where is the switch?
7. Is there anything in your direct experience—sight, sound, sensation—that requires a self to occur?
8. Where’s the edge?
Can you point to where “you” end and the world begins?
9. This sense of “I”—is it anything more than a loop of sensation + thought + belief?
Strip it down. What’s left?
10. If all thoughts stopped right now—
What remains?
And who is missing?
—
Don’t explain. Don’t interpret.
Stay with the fire.
Let the body answer.
Report from the raw.
What still feels sticky?
What still feels real?
What hasn’t dissolved?

[Enollasong]

Vince,
I'm sorry for my absense - some family stuff.

Right now—can you find a self in direct experience?
Not the idea of a self. Not the story.
The actual thing.

No, no self, but "something" sensed as ME. In and out of this. Rage still surfacing and fiercely out of nowhere about stupid shit. I ask, "why are you persisting?' And, "is there something I'm suppose to see here?" Tears come. Wanting relief from stories. Thought; if I "see" I will drop stories, understand that is not ME, find relief.

When a thought arises—who is it for?
Who hears it?
Is there a listener?

Sense of a listening. Sometimes a song plays incessantly in my head. After awhile it drives me crazy - want it to shut up. Then think, "I" am tired of this obsessive thought! What is talking about tired? UGH. Train wreck. Thought just now... Zoom to begin soon. Seeing the clock. For someone isn't it??

Can you find the source of the next thought?
Is it chosen?
Or does it simply appear, like wind through an open window?

This I understand. Feel, have seen - thoughts fly in out of nowhere. From nowhere. Wild children. Chaotic at times. Just want to sit in a chair and stare at the sky and feel the peace of clouds & sky. Turn the radio in my head to a channel with just static. White noise preferable to thought parties.

Is there a center anywhere?
A fixed point where “you” reside?
Can you feel that spot? Or is it assumed?

Sometimes still sense me just outside this body. Not in it, but HERE. Not watching, but staying close.Being created the body, Being expressing through the body, directing the body? Now feel lost.

When emotion arises—what triggers it?
Can you locate its beginning?
Who is it happening to?

Not 100% - memories. Body memories, Feeling something "familiar" memory? Reaction to fear. Not conscious always, but come from somewhere? Tricky for me -old belief, "thoughts generate feelings." SEE not always so! Old beliefs sticking around even after seeing. That feels confusing. Once seen as father,can a child still can believe in Santa Claus?

Try to start awareness.
Try to stop it.
Where is the switch?

No control over awareness. Awareness just exists. Outside of any human function. Sometimes feels shut off in sleep - sometimes not.

Is there anything in your direct experience—sight, sound, sensation—that requires a self to occur?

Know what the answer is supposed to be. Mind thinks ears needed to hear sound, eyes needed to see colors, shapes, fingers needed to type keys. So body needed. Who operated mind in body?No one there?Want to feel no self as true, what thread is clinging?Frustration in body, Want to GET THIS! Know, nothing to get! On a merry-go-round.

Where’s the edge?
Can you point to where “you” end and the world begins?

This feels real. No beginning no end - just bubbles appearing as different shapes; all still bubbles. Sky, bubbles, trees, bubbles, dog, bubbles, body, bubbles. Something missing. Conceptual.

This sense of “I”—is it anything more than a loop of sensation + thought + belief?
Strip it down. What’s left?

I - a sense of a spark of me throughout life. Powerful, vibrant, force of dynamic energy. Mind presents images of me over time. growing, fretting, lonely, happy, singular, personality, presense, story, percieved, accepted, rejected...crying again not know why. Small. me. lost. me. Scared. me.
Crying suddenly full stop. No emotion here. I - beautiful story - never real. Must let her go.

If all thoughts stopped right now—
What remains?
And who is missing?
Don’t explain. Don’t interpret.
Stay with the fire.
Let the body answer.
Report from the raw.
What still feels sticky?
What still feels real?
What hasn’t dissolved?

—
space, peace, sustenance, lifecreating, movementmoving. Sensing, Being. Back of mind something arises,
trepidation - is this real. Will it be real in an hour out in the world? Safe space here. Can I take it with me? Not wanting to know - just rest here Feel some relief. Fatigued. Need a nap.


Gratitude.

Warmly,
Pattea

[vinceschubert]

Hi Pattea,

I'm sorry for my absense - some family stuff.

no worries. It's taken me 2 days to get to your post too.

no self, but "something" sensed as ME.

this is a big one. When you say "something sensed as me" I want you to dissect that into something sensed, and additional to that a logical conclusion that that is me.
Do it now. Look for that feeling and notice whether it is just a sensation and then the idea that it must be me occurs.
I say this is a big one because it's something that happens regularly with most people. That is that the product of the mind, the assumption, is taken to be what is actual.
The reality is that almost always the mind follows a happening and claims ownership or doership of that happening. To notice this firstly you have to be aware of the possibility of it, and then you have to be very sensitive and very quick to see it in action.
So, sense of something is not proof of its actuality.

Rage still surfacing and fiercely out of nowhere about stupid shit. I ask, "why are you persisting?' And, "is there something I'm suppose to see here?"

The second question is almost right. If you change it from "supposed to see" into "what are you offering", it would be entirely appropriate.
Here's another big one. Another old assumption is that questions must have answers. Here, the answers become almost ancillary. The purpose of a question is to put you in the way of discovery as you consider it.
Every answer that occurs should be discarded and you go back to considering the question. Answers that occur have the purpose of stopping investigation.

Sometimes a song plays incessantly in my head. After awhile it drives me crazy - want it to shut up

The "I want it to shut up" is why it drives you crazy. This is the suffering. Now, don't just 'know it'. See it. Grok it. It's the inevitability of it that leads you to stop fighting it, and this leads to it stopping. It seems paradoxical, so experence is the only way to 'get it'.

Mind thinks ears needed to hear sound, eyes needed to see colors, shapes, fingers needed to type keys. So body needed.

Yes, exactly. Mind thinks ..but i'm not askng for information or logical conclusions. What is you're experiencing?
Do this..
Take a chair and sit near the refrigerator. ..or the air conditioner, or a fan. Anything that puts out a constant sound.
Close your eyes and listen. Keep listening and watch thoughts that arrive.
Do this only for a few minutes then ignore thoughts by focussing on the sound.
Keep attention on the sound until you start to feel the sound in the body.
Invite the sound into the body. Feel the body synchronise with the sound.
When this is established, mentally ask "who is hearing the sound?" at the same time watching what happens to the relationship between the sound and the body (hearing)
Report.

much love

vince

[Enollasong]

Vince, I'm feeling SO lost right now. Been doing caregiving for a woman who is in transition now, and found out yesterday a former client whom I loved, passed in March.
I've sunk deep in doubt and depression, questioning everything I've learned here.
Body: real!
Grief: real!
Loss: real. And sucks!
I don't know how long I will be, but I'm asking you to know I want to come back here.

Please wait. Or not wait, but accept me when I return.

Meanwhile I've been watching your videos.

Kindly,
Pattea

[vinceschubert]

No worries Pattea, i'm here for you.
You might find the vince-bot helpful... https://chatgpt.com/g/g-67a6d7d9cb54819 ... -awakening Just enter anything that you are feeling or thinking and see where it points you.

much love

vince

[Enollasong]

Hello Vince,
Back to this:

this is a big one. When you say "something sensed as me" I want you to dissect that into something sensed, and additional to that a logical conclusion that that is me.
Do it now. Look for that feeling and notice whether it is just a sensation and then the idea that it must be me occurs.

Yes- I saw that is what happens. Because the feeling is familiar so it 'must be me.' And if I don't go there nothing happens. It's just a sense of being here. Not waiting but a watching kind of? Not sure if that's accurate but can't think of another descriptor for it. Here, but not settled. Like something will come next.

Here's another big one. Another old assumption is that questions must have answers. Here, the answers become almost ancillary. The purpose of a question is to put you in the way of discovery as you consider it.
Every answer that occurs should be discarded and you go back to considering the question. Answers that occur have the purpose of stopping investigation.

Can you tell me more? Is this like the statement "I wonder what else is possible?" But even then I'm looking for an answer. Your last sentence is something I will need to really ponder. I'm guessing the purpose is to keep me in a place of openness- is that true? Dan Schmidt (sent you his meditation to approve which you did) says to sit in a place of a Don't Know mind. Am I understanding?

Take a chair and sit near the refrigerator. ..or the air conditioner, or a fan. Anything that puts out a constant sound.
Close your eyes and listen. Keep listening and watch thoughts that arrive.
Do this only for a few minutes then ignore thoughts by focussing on the sound.
Keep attention on the sound until you start to feel the sound in the body.
Invite the sound into the body. Feel the body synchronise with the sound.
When this is established, mentally ask "who is hearing the sound?" at the same time watching what happens to the relationship between the sound and the body (hearing)
Report.

Was doing this when my body movements began. When this happens while my eyes are closed it feels like I'm in a strange sedative trance and my body is just moving on its own. I'm aware of it- I can stop it, but I allow it to do its thing I think out of curiosity now. Because I said yes.
I wish I had answers for this experience. It is becoming quite random and weird for me. Today at a restaurant I went to use the bathroom and while I was on the toilet my body slowly moved back and forth, side to side rocking. I was just like, "really. Here in a public bathroom?"
It's different than me scratching my head and then becoming aware that I had an itch and noticed my hand had moved to my head without me 'consciously directing' it. That's not this. It's an energy that feels alive. Separate from Pattea the person. Sadness arising in me just now. Tears! Whaaat!? Is. This for? Warm energy in my legs & torso. Brow is tense, breathing shallow. Typing is being done but fingers know not me or I'm mixed up. Face contorted. Squinted tight eyes, clenched teeth mouth wide. Still contorting I'm not sure what's happening here.
Had to stop. Wish you were here to see, feel this. Maybe you'd be able to help. I'm trying not to be afraid. It still feels like it's not me. I know everything is consciousness- ugh. Know in theory.
Do you have any thoughts on this Vince?
It's late. I have to go to bed.
Thank you Vince.🙏☮️🙄

[vinceschubert]

Hi Pattea, It was really good to see you at this morning's group.

Yes- I saw that is what happens. Because the feeling is familiar so it 'must be me.'

So, just to drive it home... The only "me" that you find is a mental conclusion. Is this right? One that is validated by some sensations?

I'm guessing the purpose is to keep me in a place of openness- is that true?

Yes. Not just openness, but open without expecting to ever know. Any conclusion that arrives is seen as a possibility only.

Take a chair and sit near the refrigerator. ..or the air conditioner, or a fan. Anything that puts out a constant sound.
Close your eyes and listen. Keep listening and watch thoughts that arrive.
Do this only for a few minutes then ignore thoughts by focussing on the sound.
Keep attention on the sound until you start to feel the sound in the body.
Invite the sound into the body. Feel the body synchronise with the sound.
When this is established, mentally ask "who is hearing the sound?" at the same time watching what happens to the relationship between the sound and the body (hearing)
Report.

Have multiple attempts to do this. Let me know if the body movements start again when you start doing it.

Much love

vince

[Enollasong]

Vince,

So, just to drive it home... The only "me" that you find is a mental conclusion. Is this right? One that is validated by some sensations?

Yes - thought followed movement AS I realised that it was probably because I felt something familiar, that I assumed it must be "me". And I saw that this was a construct of the mind and not experienced directly.

Yes. Not just openness, but open without expecting to ever know. Any conclusion that arrives is seen as a possibility only.

It is hard knowing that answers are neither important or will lead me anywhere. Feels like swimming relentlessly in the ocean of being lost. Or feeling lost - which I am really feeling these days and not enjoying it at all.

Story; my non-duality exploration is creating upheaval in my relationship. I feel so emotionally wrecked. As mentioned, I vacillate between a sense of detachment "that's a thought, a feeling, a reaction etc..I do NOT have to engage," to sobbing and not understanding why. I grieve for a life I believed was real - AND I am still in that life and obviously NOT aware of my true nature except as a conceptual understanding. My body movements are very active - arising at weird times. In a zoom today someone was talking about new physical sensations they had not had before and suddenly "I noticed" my head was nodding in agreement - without any prior thought. I watched this and the energy grew into my head shaking uncontrollably till my headphones came off. I let it go on until it subsided. I've stopped inquiring about it, that led me nowhere. But I think, "THIS IS NOT NORMAL. And... someone is going to lock me up."

Regarding the excercise of listening to a fan:

Have multiple attempts to do this. Let me know if the body movements start again when you start doing it.

My body will not allow me to sink into this. I come close, then it starts moving again. I try to control it ahead of time, mentally focusing only on sound and being very still and present - eventually it shows up by way of a tightening in the neck or the core of the body. Then my attention is snapped back to body. Thoughts please?

Thank you Vince.

[vinceschubert]

Hi Pattea,

I assumed it must be "me". And I saw that this was a construct of the mind

Be explicit about the ramifications of this.

It is hard knowing that answers are neither important or will lead me anywhere.

Is it hard because... Tell what comes to mind about why it is hard?

feeling lost - which I am really feeling these days and not enjoying it at all.

What is wrong with being lost? (seriously)

Story; my non-duality exploration is creating upheaval in my relationship.

This sounds like more than a story to me. Has it occurred to you that you can be in both worlds at the same time?

sobbing and not understanding why

Sobbing is fine. Not understanding is fine. Wanting to understand is suffering. The false promise is that if you understand it, then it will stop.

body movements are very active

i would look at the body movements like the sobbing. It is fine (depending on circumstances, of course) It is energetic expressions of something. it is far more common than you imagine. (of course it is kept private, so you don't hear about it)

My body will not allow me to sink into this. I come close, then it starts moving again. I try to control it ahead of time,

This makes me think that the body movements are trying to protect you. i suggest that you do it until the body movement is close then stop and do some deep, slow breathing, and when things normalise, repeat. Don't try to control them. Go to the edge then back off.
They aren't going to hurt you and if they are a subconscious attempt to protect then this will extend how far you can go before they get triggered.
let me know how you go.

much love

vince