Now and Here and Nowhere?

[Anastacia42]

lying to someone I loved, I find myself experiencing contraction in the stomach/solar plexus, pressure in my chest

Yes, that's enough. The contraction.

Remember, truth is the opposite Is expansive & light.

Yes, "peacefil" is a label.

lightness, expansion, relaxation

are body Sensations.

Good!

Now let's looka bit at labels.



Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is SEEN.

Loving,

[Ezilda]

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

The actual direct experience is seeing --seeing form (letters that spell 'GREEN') and color (red).

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

The color red is experienced.

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

The label suggests a different color than what is here now, it suggests the color green, as a thought.

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

"Green" is just a word/label overlaying the experience of seeing red.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

No, the redness is not affected if the label is replaced. It is still red.

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

The labels have no effect on reality, on direct eperience. The redness is red.
(I must say, at this point am having a flash of the printed word 'red' getting a bit weird for me -- 'red,' kind of meaningless even.)

Let me know what is SEEN.

What is actually seen is the image of the letters for the word GREEN, and the color red.

[Anastacia42]

Good. Now let's.bring it all together.

Actual/Direct Experience - Apple

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise. Google for a picture of an apple.



When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Have fun and let me know what you find out.

Loving,

[Ezilda]

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

In looking at the apple, what's known is seeing redness, and a round shape.
The thought, "Apple. This is an apple," occurs and what's known is a thought/thinking happening. The thought is an overlay on the actual seeing, and it's not necessary.
Touching the apple, there is sensation of touch, likewise smelling the apple, there is knowing smell, biting into the apple and chewing there is knowing sound, and knowing of taste.
All of these experiences are happening and known with no need of the thought label "apple."

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

There is in reality simply color/shape, tactile sensation, taste, etc. and a recognition which is a thought "this is an apple" which is about 'apple.'

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

"Apple" is a word or label for what is being seen, and it can only be in thought, not in actual experience.

However, is an apple actually known?

No, "an apple" can't actually be known "an apple" is the content of thought.
Only the direct eperiences of seeing, feeling, tasting, etc can be directly known.

Have fun and let me know what you find out

Direct experience has a an immediate vivid reality to it. Thoughts about the object lack that vividness. Looking at this object, it is familiar, recognizable, but there's something very vivid and unique to it when the focus is just on seeing, or just on feeling it, tasting it. In knowing the apple, a thought about is not only unnecessary, the vividness of direct experience is obscured.

[Anastacia42]

Yes. That's good. Exactly.

And like "apple," can you find any "self? " LOOK

Loving,

[Ezilda]

And like "apple," can you find any "self? " LOOK

I can't really find a "self," an object "I." Not behind my eyes. Not in my face, mouth, chest. I can't even find this supposed "I" that is supposedly trying to find itself. There's just trying. The word "I" does pop up in thoughts.

"Sitting here" . . . . there is a sense of "sinking in" and seeing the surroundings
"I am sitting here" . . . more of a pushing/(contracting/) feeling, in the face/chest/upper arms overlaying the seeing . . .. but these are sensations, not a "self."
When ("I?") voluntarily contract those areas, there again is a subtle sense of "I" that doesn't last
It seems that the more the body relaxes the less of an "I-sense" there is . . .
The "sinking in" feeling is similar to a sense of relaxing . . .

'"I" should work some more on my taxes' . . some tension . . . again as I register this, the tension dissipates.
Thinking as I type: "Promising myself I will get to it." There is the recognition that this is a thought, and the words "myself", and "I" popped in there automatically . . .

"I will . . ." "I have to . . . " What if the thought is changed to just "will?" or "have to?" -- dropping the "I" . .?
There seems to be more energy, more push, when the word "I" is also present . . . .
(As if by adding in the word "I," there's more push to stop procrastinating and to get going on the taxes. Which MUST get done! As if there needs to be an "I" to get things accomplished?)
Wanting is tangled up in this. "'I' want to have the taxes done." And there's contracting sensations with that.
The notion of "I" and this body (or should I say, sensations that are experienced in this body?) seem deeply entwined.

It seems evident that this life can be experienced without needing the label "I" attached to every experience. (Or any experience!) "I will . . ," "I must . . .," "I did . . . ," are simply thoughts about sensed experiences of seeing, sound, sensation, etc., and also thoughts about thoughts.

Thoughts do not directly know anything, they simply describe. In really looking, 'self/I' exists only in thoughts -- The thought containing "I" is not able to directly know an experience. Again, as with the apple, this is all very logical and makes sense.

There's still some uncertainty about the sense of "being here." Maybe "I''m not here, but it seems like something is.
Is "being here" a direct experience? Or is "being here" just a thought?--something derived from knowing direct experiences?

[Anastacia42]

this is all very logical and makes sense.

We don't care about logic or sense. That's just thinking. Your whole answer is just a bunch of thinking. Sounds good, but that's not what we're doing here.

Yes, "awareness," if we must label it, remains.

JUST LOOK in DE. No thinking.

Explore ‘Sense of Self’

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken.

This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?

Loving,

[Ezilda]

Stacy, hi . . OK, am really going to try and feel my way through this!

Does the sense of self have a location?

I can FEEL a sense of it "here" in the body . . . seems like it's behind the eyes, or the torso . . .
but it's also elusive, hard to pin down exactly where it is.

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Sense of self -- shape? I can't FEEL a shape, not at all size? no

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

It feels as if it communicates thoughts and feelings.

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

This is feeling confusing. The "sense of self" is getting murkier as I keep trying to answer these questions.
I want to say this sense of self communicates by speaking or emoting.

Exactly how it does it? A thought happens. A feeling/sensation happens in the body. There's a wanting (contraction feeling) to share what's going on -- these thoughts. (Also more contractions around being right or wrong.)

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

It feels as if the sense of self has a knowing quality. (Although can't really feel that.)

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

If anything, the sense of self FEELS like it is made up mostly of sensations that correlate with thoughts.

What is found?

Just some elusive sense of it . . . the sense of self shifting from stronger to weaker and back, sort of depending on the strength of sensations and thoughts. It doesn't feel quite solid or always here. Slippery to grasp, even when I'm focussed on checking in on it.

[Anastacia42]

Just some elusive sense of it . . . the sense of self shifting from stronger to weaker and back, sort of depending on the strength of sensations and thoughts. It doesn't feel quite solid or always here. Slippery to grasp, even when I'm focussed on checking in on it.

That's because there is no self.

It is only a thought & the Sensations are contractions- the lie feeling.

Can you see this? Can you let go of thought long enough to SEE?


Loving,

[Ezilda]

Stacy, hi, here goes:

Can you see this? Can you let go of thought long enough to SEE?

Yes . . . and it really requires paying close attention. When I really pay attention to an experience of a sense of self, there is an experience of body sensations that correlate and I keep experimenting with/looking at this -- for instance:

There's a sense/thought that "I" am kind of spacing out, and with focussing, there can be awareness of subtle vibration sensations around my eyes and all around the top half of my head.

Reading a news article, and there's a sense/thought of "I" don't want, don't like . . . it's accompanied by, (triggered by?) tension/contraction sensations in the solar plexus, chest, jaw . . . .

Am just kind of trying to think with intensity "I am here!" and there's a strong feeling of downward pressure/tension/contraction in my chest and shoulders . . . to sustain it sort of feels like work, and with focussing and allowing relaxing, the thought and sensations dissipate.

In paying attention to the sense of self in this way, each time the body sensations become more predominant, the sense of self sort of dissolves, loses its immediacy/reality. And then the body sensations change and/or are interspersed with seeing, hearing, etc. . And it's becoming more clear that this notion of "I" is a thought/label that accompanies/labels sensation.

[Anastacia42]

"I" is a thought/label that accompanies/labels sensation.

Yes. When you wake up, it just happens. It does NOT happen because you are focusing or thinking about it. It happens because you are NOT focusing or NOT thinking about it. You either suddenly or gradually notice what is already there.

We are looking for a shift in perception. Not trying to find something, but to relax completely and see that there is nothing there.

Have you read Gateless Gatecrashers? Or Liberation Unleashed? Or any of the completed threads in our Archive here?

All of those will give you examples of people who finally let go and allowed seeing.

It will come up when you least expect it. What we do here just prepares the ground. We cannot force seeing. It happens when it does and not a moment before.

No thinking will help. And that is meant in both ways that it can be read.

Here is a link to my DropBox with additional pointers. Especially, listen to the Introduction.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/k1ph01pt ... fakrb&dl=0

Loving,

[Ezilda]

Have you read Gateless Gatecrashers? Or Liberation Unleashed? Or any of the completed threads in our Archive here?

I've read bits of the threads in the Archive, but none all the way through (yet), and in that you asked, I went online to the Gateless Gatecrashers book -- and have read the first five interviews. So far, have very much related to Shane, Bruno, Jamie and Eric--backgrounds in meditation practice and still needing reminders to go from thought to experience. Will continue reading.
And when we first started I listened to the introduction talk in the drop box, just now listened to "2. All it is," and would like to listen to more.

I liked: "No thinking will help. And that is meant in both ways . . ."

[Anastacia42]

Good. Spend some time with all of that. Write how it FEELS to see no self.

Check your gut feeling.

Write what is true.

Loving

[Ezilda]

Write how it FEELS to see no self. Check your gut feeling. Write what is true.

The feeling of a sense of self tends to exist until I actively pay attention to direct experience and self loses its reality . .
and then somehow is existing again, and then with looking, the self is once again elusivie, not really there.

The feeling with seeing no self?
At times there's been a brief sort of dizzy, whooshing feeling . . . .
Sometimes a sort of empty sense . . . or a spacy-ness . . . or a blankness . .
Sometimes a sense of calmness . . .

Took a walk in the park. Vividly seeing trees, hearing crows, sensing stepping and for awhile feeling a pleasant calmness with no self in the seeing or sensations of stepping. This just arose on its own kind of accidentally. (No hunting or investigating.)
This calmness has been sometimes arising with other doing -- driving, chopping vegetables-- -- a feeling of it just happening without a label of self, without an "I am doing . . .. , "
Right now, typing at the keyboard, the calmness kind of happening, but it's mixed with a kind of sense "trying" to notice it.

Some feelings of concern/worry arose about a decision to be made. . . and in investigating, a tension in the diaphragm eclipsed the sense of "worried self" . . . There wasn't a feeling calm exactly, but a feeling of space . . .

And then quite often a kind of lostness/a lot of thinking and the habitual "me" is happening again . . .

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

Okay, I would like for you to rewrite that answer using ONLY sensory specific Direct Experience. No thoughts at all.

The whole answer. Here are a couple of examples:

The feeling with seeing no self?
At times there's been a brief sort of dizzy, whooshing feeling . . . .
Sometimes a sort of empty sense . . . or a spacy-ness . . . or a blankness .
Sometimes a sense of calmness . .

Bodies can feel hot, cold, heavy, light, pain, pleasure, tense, relaxed, things like that. I know it's hard to notice, but that's the practice.

Where in your body do you feel "dizzy whooshing?" That's nearly a Sensation, but be very specific.

Empty, spacy, blank - again, where? Teach me how to feel that.

Calm is a label, a thought. Where exactly? How does the body feel it? And, yes, what you're labeling calm may suggest that you're not stuck in the tense lie of "self."

Focusing only on DE has the effect of forcing you to focus here & now, on this instant. That's where the truth of no self is found.

Give it a try.

Loving