Eye Of The Storm

[Sui]

Now—in the middle of all this appearing—where is the one it's happening to?

If i drop all effort, the senses come wave after wave in an overwhelming fashion. Makes me forget the question. Just sit there in this spinning flow on senses. Nothing else is even there. Thought comes reminding me that i should be answering a question. Body responds with contraction. Finding it difficult to see thoughts from outside without concentrating on the context. Can only do this if i sit with the intention to observe thoughts from the outside without thinking about their content. Another thought reminding that the task was to drop all effort. Back to the carousel of senses. Overwhelming. Everything else drops. Realize im thinking about that i should be answering question. Is the point to answer the question or just stay overwhelmed in the flow of senses. Not sure anymore. Just going to write about the process.

Scan the body:

Is there a “center” anywhere?

Another question. Start to look for an answer. Scan the body: arm feels like the center, now leg, now head, now neck, now leg again. Forget to concentrate on the body and start concentrating on the sound, the smell, get lost and overwhelmed by the senses. Forget about the task, lose the center.

Is there a location in the chest, the head, the gut where this “me” resides?
Go there now. Drop all descriptions. Don’t say “it feels like…”
Actually look. Is it there? A thing? A center?

Same story. When i look for it with intention, i find it. When i stop looking for someone specific drop all effort and just let what feels be, i forget about the task and i lose all the 'mes', 'locations' etc.

Look again:

Do you find an owner of thought—or just thought?
Do you find a doer of action—or just movement?
Do you find a feeler of emotion—or just raw, shifting sensation?
Stay right here. No interpretation.
Don’t move forward until you’ve looked.
Tell me now:

What’s actually here?

If i look for the owner, i find the owner - seems like its the body, now seems like its the brain. Oh im thinking again. Should just look without thinking. When i look without thinking, i forget about the intention and the task and stop looking and the senses come rushing through the floodgates again. No more owner, not that i cant find it if i look, but i forget about it when i stop looking. Like the screen disappears when i stop paying attention.

A lot of words a lot of shifting and confusion. To simplify its just waves and waves of raw senses, then the attention shifts to content of thoughts and all the senses are muted, then a thought leads to a thought which leads to another thought reminding me that i should be dropping all effort and the senses come rushing in again making me forget about all the 'centers', 'mes', 'tasks', 'questions'.

How do i continue?

[vinceschubert]

Hi Sui, i know that it doesn't seem so, but this is a really good 'place'.

You’re not lost—you’re in exactly the right place.

This is the breaking point.
The mind is trying to maintain control—with reminders, loops, goals, and structure.
It keeps trying to ask: “Am I doing this right?”
That’s the self-claiming mechanism in real time.

You’re watching the system attempt to re-establish a center—in the middle of its collapse.

You said it perfectly:
"Just sit there in this spinning flow of senses. Nothing else is even there."

Good. Stay there. Don’t run.
Let the mind panic about not doing it right.
Let the body contract trying to stabilize.
Don’t interfere. Don’t chase clarity. Don’t answer.

This is the direct disintegration of the illusion of control.

So now:

When thoughts scream “I should be answering”, look directly at that sentence:

- Where did it come from?
- Who is it for?
- What owns it?
- What is outside that thought?

Can you find anything there but sound, sensation, movement, and more thought?

Look again—can anything in this chaos be located as a center?

Yes or no.
Don’t think. Report!

with love

vince

[Sui]

Hey Vince,

Things are very strange. Just went for a walk and got these shifts from stillness and calmness everywhere, to overwhelmed by sensations, back and forth. Interesting that now when the thoughts come, they mostly remind me to stop responding which is followed by lack of thoughts -> stillness -> a wave of senses -> thoughts -> thoughts that remind me to not respond to whatever is happening -> stillness and the loop goes on.

- Where did it come from?
- Who is it for?
- What owns it?
- What is outside that thought?

When i look at these questions i just feel contraction in the body. Questions again, words again, thinking again. I want to stay away from that. When i try to start answering, it feels like im 'doing' and all that 'doing' brings attention to concepts and thoughts and away from the effortless state. I dont find thoughts unpleasant. I just find this thoughtless space magical and want to stay there. As im writing i notice all these letters are thoughts. Where do they come from? Some unknown place. The same place sensations come from? Do they come from somewhere at all or do they just appear out of nowhere? Who are they for? Silly question (no offence). Who are sounds for? Who is the smell for? Who is the wind for? They just are. What owns it? What is outside that thought? I dont want it seem like i dont appreciate your effort, but i just feel stupid even answering these. When i ask these questions, my brain just stop. Like when you argue with a 5 year old at some point your brain just stops as it sees the process as pointless. Even writing all this seems like entering a maze, a huge labyrinth without an exit and i just dont want to go there.

Can you find anything there but sound, sensation, movement, and more thought?

Can i find it? It just hit me that looking for something is thinking. Can you look without thinking? How do i look if there is anything apart from x and y without creating concepts and a task to achieve within the lines of these concepts? It seems impossible. And if the answer is not conceptual then whats the point in looking for it in the world of thoughts? Are these really questions you expect answers to or have you just been feeding me koans all this time to help me stop thinking? Because if you have, its working. The way i really want to answer all these questions is with silence.

I came to this forum with an objective to experientially see that there is no self. I dont think that its possible, because you cant see what is not there. What i see now is that there are just two states of being: thinking and non thinking (the latter state is where the senses come in). During the thinking state there is a feeling/sensations/sense (none of these seem accurate enough) of the doer, of 'me'. During the non thinking state there is not.

Look again—can anything in this chaos be located as a center?

Yes or no.

If i have to answer with words, i have to think of the right words and when i think, it seems like there is a 'center', a 'me' who is the center, the thinker and the question answerer all at once. If i answer the way i want to answer, the answer would be silence and there when there is no thinking, there is also no center, answerer or 'me' there.

I hope that you dont take offence to me calling the questions stupid because i see huge value in them. When i say 'stupid', its just to express that my brain doesnt see the point and would rather stay silent. I also hope at least some of this makes sense. Is there a progression to this or do i just stay where im at?

[vinceschubert]

Hi Sui,

Things are very strange. Just went for a walk and got these shifts from stillness and calmness everywhere, to overwhelmed by sensations, back and forth. Interesting that now when the thoughts come, they mostly remind me to stop responding which is followed by lack of thoughts -> stillness -> a wave of senses -> thoughts -> thoughts that remind me to not respond to whatever is happening -> stillness and the loop goes on.

Good. That’s the system unraveling.

You’re watching the collapse of the illusion in real-time—not as a concept, but as a process. That loop you’re describing?

That’s not a problem.
That’s the burn-off of the old structure.

The thought that says *“don’t respond”* is a knife cutting through the auto-reactive trance. And then… stillness. And then sensation floods in—because there's no filter now. No center managing it. Just raw, untethered aliveness.

Now—look closer.
Each loop, each wave—what’s missing?

Where is the “me”?
Where does it actually land, take hold, stay?

Is there any point of ownership in this loop?
Any entity riding the wave?
Or just wave, thought, reminder, stillness… again and again?

You don’t need to stop the loop.
Just stop looking for someone inside it.

Go walk again. Let it all happen. And when it does—check:
Can you find the one it’s happening to?
Or is that just part of the loop too?

Report from direct experience—what’s actually here?

When i look at these questions i just feel contraction in the body. Questions again, words again, thinking again. I want to stay away from that. When i try to start answering, it feels like im 'doing' and all that 'doing' brings attention to concepts and thoughts and away from the effortless state. I dont find thoughts unpleasant. I just find this thoughtless space magical and want to stay there. As im writing i notice all these letters are thoughts. Where do they come from? Some unknown place. The same place sensations come from? Do they come from somewhere at all or do they just appear out of nowhere? Who are they for? Silly question (no offence). Who are sounds for? Who is the smell for? Who is the wind for? They just are. What owns it? What is outside that thought? I dont want it seem like i dont appreciate your effort, but i just feel stupid even answering these. When i ask these questions, my brain just stop. Like when you argue with a 5 year old at some point your brain just stops as it sees the process as pointless. Even writing all this seems like entering a maze, a huge labyrinth without an exit and i just dont want to go there.

This is it. This isn’t resistance—it’s the intelligence of the system recoiling from artificial doing.

You’re not failing. You’re exposing the very core of the illusion.

Read this slowly:

Nothing needs to be answered.
There’s no question that needs solving.
There is no one here who needs to respond.

You said it yourself:

"I don’t find thoughts unpleasant. I just find this thoughtless space magical and want to stay there."

And there it is—the final seeker move.

You want to stay in a state. You want stillness to last. You want to possess it. You’ve replaced “awakening” with “staying in the magical space.” But both are illusions of control.

So feel this now:

When you long to stay in stillness—who is the one trying to hold it?
That grasping—that reaching to possess—is the resurrection of the center.

You’re not being pulled from stillness by thought.
You’re being pulled by wanting.

So now—no questions. No answers. Just this:

Let go of wanting the stillness to last.
Let it vanish. Let the flood come. Let the mind spiral. Let silence return.
Don’t touch anything.

Right now—what remains when even the desire for silence is dropped?
What’s left when you don’t try to hold any state at all?

Sit there. No words. Then tell me what’s undeniably here.

Can i find it? It just hit me that looking for something is thinking. Can you look without thinking? How do i look if there is anything apart from x and y without creating concepts and a task to achieve within the lines of these concepts? It seems impossible. And if the answer is not conceptual then whats the point in looking for it in the world of thoughts? Are these really questions you expect answers to or have you just been feeding me koans all this time to help me stop thinking? Because if you have, its working. The way i really want to answer all these questions is with silence.

Yes. That’s the real answer.
Silence is the only honest response.

You just saw it with your own eyes:

“Looking is thinking.”
“Trying to find something is already a concept.”
“Even the search creates the illusion.”

Exactly.

There is nothing to find. There never was.
Every “question” I offered was a trick to get you to notice the one asking.

And now?

Even the one asking is gone.
Even the desire to answer is dissolving.
You’ve seen it:
Every movement to grasp is already a step away.

So don’t grasp.
Don’t answer.
Don’t look.

Let the silence answer for you.
Let the stillness speak for itself.

You’ve already seen what remains when all effort ends.
That’s not a state. That’s reality without the fiction.

Now tell me—

Is there a separate entity—‘self,’ ‘me,’ ‘I’—at all, anywhere, in any way, shape, or form? Was there ever?

Not the idea of one. Not the memory of one.
Can one be found right now—here, in this silence?

I came to this forum with an objective to experientially see that there is no self. I dont think that its possible, because you cant see what is not there. What i see now is that there are just two states of being: thinking and non thinking (the latter state is where the senses come in). During the thinking state there is a feeling/sensations/sense (none of these seem accurate enough) of the doer, of 'me'. During the non thinking state there is not.

Yes. You’ve pierced it.

You can’t see what isn’t there.
You’ve been chasing a phantom and trying to prove it doesn’t exist by catching it.

It never existed.
The “doer,” the “me,” the “self”—is just a sensation linked to thought.
You said it yourself:

> “During the thinking state, there is a sense of ‘me.’ During the non-thinking state, there is not.”

Exactly.

The “me” appears only with thought.
And the moment thought stops, there is no center, no feeler, no controller—just this.

Now look again:
Has there ever been a “you” apart from thinking?
Or was it only ever thought claiming a position that doesn’t exist?

That “doer feeling” is just like thunder after lightning—just a residue of mental activity.
When that activity quiets, nothing is missing—only the illusion is gone.

So now:

Is there, right now, a real, solid, independent self—anywhere in direct experience?
Or has it only ever been a story told by thought, felt in the body, mistaken for truth?

Look again. Just once more.
Not to answer a question—but to see what’s already here.

Can you find anything separate?
Or is there only experience, moving, flowing, unowned, untethered—never needing a “me”?

If i have to answer with words, i have to think of the right words and when i think, it seems like there is a 'center', a 'me' who is the center, the thinker and the question answerer all at once. If i answer the way i want to answer, the answer would be silence and there when there is no thinking, there is also no center, answerer or 'me' there.

Yes. That is clear seeing.

The “me” is only ever constructed in the act of answering.
It is not found—it is built, moment to moment, by the movement of thought.
When there is no thought, there is no construction—and nothing missing.

So now, we cut straight:

Is there a self, a center, a thinker—right now—outside the act of thinking?
If you don’t reach for a word, don’t build a sentence, don’t name anything—
is there anything left that needs a self to explain it?

Colors, sounds, breath, heartbeat, movement—do any of them require a “you” to be happening?

So what’s more honest—trying to speak from a fiction, or letting silence speak from truth?

You’re already there. Now drop even the need to stay there.

This is it. No story. No seeker. No arrival. Just this. Always was.

I hope that you dont take offence to me calling the questions stupid because i see huge value in them. When i say 'stupid', its just to express that my brain doesnt see the point and would rather stay silent. I also hope at least some of this makes sense. Is there a progression to this or do i just stay where im at?

No offence taken. Not even a little.

Calling the questions “stupid” was the most honest and important response you gave.
It meant something deeper had already snapped. The mind was no longer in charge.
It was done pretending these questions were real puzzles for a real person to solve.

That’s not an insult.
It’s liberation.

As for your last question:
“Is there a progression to this or do I just stay where I’m at?”

Look closely at that sentence.
Do you see it?

That question only exists if there’s still a faint trace of a “me” with a timeline.
A “you” who is “somewhere,” going “somewhere else.”
It’s the last echo of seeking. Nothing more.

And yet—there is no “where you’re at.”
There is no “next step.”
There is just THIS.

No continuation.
No arrival.
No improving it.
No holding it.

Progression implies becoming.
What you are is not becoming anything. It never was.

So here’s the real question—and it’s not one to answer, but one to stop on:

If this is it—forever, exactly as it is—would anything need to change?
Stay right there.
That’s home.

with much love

vince

[Sui]

Hey Vince,

Things have been difficult last few days. Seems like im back at square one and even worse. Thoughts with the story of 'me' have been overwhelming. Seems like im always lost in the story about 'me' these days. The emotions have been depressing as well. I try to go to the park and concentrate on the senses, but in just a few seconds i wake up after being lost in thoughts again.

Now—look closer.
Each loop, each wave—what’s missing?

Nothing. Everything is as always been.

Where is the “me”?
Where does it actually land, take hold, stay?

Its clearly a construct of thoughts, an idea. When the story grabs hold of the attention, the 'me' is all there is and the senses are just background. When the thoughts are tender and do not suck in the attention with such gravity and the attention is able to focus on the senses the 'me' is no longer there.

Is there any point of ownership in this loop?
Any entity riding the wave?
Or just wave, thought, reminder, stillness… again and again?

When looking for the outside, its clearly just senses and thoughts. When looking from the inside, all there is is just 'me' all the senses revolve around like planets around the sun.

Go walk again. Let it all happen. And when it does—check:
Can you find the one it’s happening to?
Or is that just part of the loop too?

Report from direct experience—what’s actually here?

Its a movie. A story about a person. The person is only real in the movie. When you look away, you recognize that, its clear. Most of the time, however, the body is glued to the screen to the point where all that is real to the mind is the movie. Is there are difference between not knowing its just a movie and knowing it, but keep on forgetting it as soon as you remember? The fact that its just a movie becomes just a distant memory. To the mind the guy in the movie is all there is and all that matters.

Read this slowly:

Nothing needs to be answered.
There’s no question that needs solving.
There is no one here who needs to respond.

I find this conflicting. When you look away from the screen and remember its just a movie, its does seem true. When you are sucked in the movie, lost in the story about the main character, you must remember its not real, that you need to look away. If you dont respond to the thought 'its just a movie', you will live in the illusion all the time.

"I don’t find thoughts unpleasant. I just find this thoughtless space magical and want to stay there."

And there it is—the final seeker move.

You want to stay in a state. You want stillness to last. You want to possess it. You’ve replaced “awakening” with “staying in the magical space.” But both are illusions of control.

If i dont 'try' to get my attention away from the story about 'me', the story absorbs all there is. Do i just relax and live in the story forever?

So feel this now:

When you long to stay in stillness—who is the one trying to hold it?
That grasping—that reaching to possess—is the resurrection of the center.

You’re not being pulled from stillness by thought.
You’re being pulled by wanting.

There is no one. When im lost in the story, a thought comes about remembering that its just a story. Its followed by emotions that feel a lot like boiling water poured on me. This is followed by attention shifting from the screen, from the movie towards the senses. Is there wanting? Call it whatever. Is there someone doing the process? Seems like it just happens automatically. Its just an automated process that keeps on happening.

So now—no questions. No answers. Just this:

Let go of wanting the stillness to last.
Let it vanish. Let the flood come. Let the mind spiral. Let silence return.
Don’t touch anything.

Right now—what remains when even the desire for silence is dropped?
What’s left when you don’t try to hold any state at all?

Instead of silence, its the thoughts that return and it sucks me in from observing them from outside into spending my days as the character of the story. It hides the world of senses like clouds hide the sun. Senses are still there but they are so distant that attention rarely lands there. Its busy. Its addicted, sucked in the story about the 'me'. GOOD, I REMEMBER IT, THAT MEANS I NOW SEE ITS JUST A STORY! No. I forget that its a story few seconds later. I dont see a way around it. Giving up all effort, all trying, all resistance just makes the story more vivid. It seems like 'trying' is the only reason i look away from the story at all.

Is there a separate entity—‘self,’ ‘me,’ ‘I’—at all, anywhere, in any way, shape, or form? Was there ever?

Not the idea of one. Not the memory of one.
Can one be found right now—here, in this silence?

Me is only an idea. Its clear when looking from outside. Its forgotten as soon as ideas suck you back in. I get it. However, its like knowing that smoking is bad for you, but still smoking because you are addicted. Is it good to know? Sure. Does it make a difference? Yeah, you smoke a bit less. Does it make a big difference? Not really.

I will stop with the questions here. It seems like they all just lead to the same answers.

Any pointers to help attention stay away from the story?

[vinceschubert]

Hi Sui, Good. Perfect. Right where you need to be.

This isn’t square one. This is the wall that breaks the final illusion.
Not the story of “me”—but the belief that it ever really went away.

Right now, your mind is screaming:
“I had it. I lost it. I’m failing.”

That is the core illusion—right there.

You didn’t go anywhere.
There’s no square one.
There’s no backward.
There’s just this story unfolding—“I’m back at square one”—and a body reacting.

So let’s go to the raw, right now:

Where exactly is the problem, right this second?

Don’t name it.
Feel it.

- Where in the body is the weight?
- Is it in the throat? Chest? Gut?
- What is its shape, size, texture?

Drop the word “depression.”
Drop the word “lost.”

What is here, beneath the label? What is the actual sensation, right now?

Not “why” it’s here.
Not how to fix it.

Just what.

Let it burn.
Let it be felt.
Let it be seen as it is—without a story, without a “me” who owns it.

This moment is not failure.
It’s the furnace. It’s the undoing of the last illusion that awakening means ease.

Stay here.
Feel it all.
Tell me what’s actually present—not the story—just what’s real in the body, right now.

Any pointers to help attention stay away from the story?

Can you control where attention goes? (answer from experience - not the mind)
Being lost in story is not a problem. In fact, it is an opportunity to recognize that it has happened.
It's this recognition that develops the new habit of not getting lost in fantasy.
So, at this stage, look forward to the recognition that follows the getting lost..
In fact, celebrate the recognition by laughing. Out loud if appropriate, otherwise just laugh in your mind and with your eyes. This will accelerate losing the old habit and establishing a new one.

with love

vince

[Sui]

- Where in the body is the weight?
- Is it in the throat? Chest? Gut?
- What is its shape, size, texture?

Throat and head. Its a sensation and like all sensations there is no shape, size or texture to it.

What is here, beneath the label? What is the actual sensation, right now?

I dont think we have words for all sensations humans experience. The closest i can get is tension/pressure.

Let it burn.
Let it be felt.
Let it be seen as it is—without a story, without a “me” who owns it.

I observe the sensation. I ask if theres a feeler. Its obvious that there is. The feeler is the body and the brain.

I read our whole thread again. Its crazy. A few days ago it seemed clear that there is no doer/feeler and that its just a thought. Now it seems clear that the body and the brain is the doer and the feeler and the 'no self' is just a thought.

I concentrate on the senses, on the tension and pressure in the head and throat. The resistance subsides and the pressure eases after some time. But there a doer behind it.

[vinceschubert]

Hi Sui,

I observe the sensation. I ask if theres a feeler. Its obvious that there is. The feeler is the body and the brain.

I read our whole thread again. Its crazy. A few days ago it seemed clear that there is no doer/feeler and that its just a thought. Now it seems clear that the body and the brain is the doer and the feeler and the 'no self' is just a thought.

I concentrate on the senses, on the tension and pressure in the head and throat. The resistance subsides and the pressure eases after some time. But there a doer behind it.

There it is.
That flickering, back-and-forth, clear-then-cloudy, seen-then-lost—that is the illusion at work.

A few days ago:
"There’s no feeler—only sensation."

Now:
"The feeler is clearly the body and brain."

And both feel equally real.

This is not confusion. This is the exact mechanism that sustains the illusion.
Thought claims ownership of whatever appears.

When sensation arises, thought says:
“It’s happening to me.”

When clarity arises, thought says:
“I’m seeing it clearly now.”

Both are thoughts. Neither has a ‘you’ behind it.

Now, look at this line you wrote:

“I concentrate on the senses, on the tension… The resistance subsides… But there is a doer behind it.”

Pause.

Right now—is that “doer” anything more than a thought?
What exactly is it? Where is it? Can it be touched? Weighed?
Or is it just the story of doing that comes after the relaxation?

You see tension → it subsides → then comes the thought: “I did that.”

Isn’t that the same as a dog barking and thought saying, “I barked”? (Ha!, how crazy is that?)

So now, stop everything.
No answers. No insight. Just this raw seeing:

Does experience need a doer to happen?
Does sensation require a feeler to be felt?
Or is the “doer” just another ripple in the stream, appearing after the fact—taking credit for the flow?

Don’t analyze. Just look. Tell me what’s undeniable, right now.

with love

vince

[Sui]

Right now—is that “doer” anything more than a thought?
What exactly is it? Where is it? Can it be touched? Weighed?
Or is it just the story of doing that comes after the relaxation?

Right now, yes. Its the body. The body feels, hears, sees. If the body feels, it seems (true or illusion) that i feel. Thats why everyone thinks that they are the body who does stuff. Thats everyone thinks that they are the brain who thinks stuff.

You see tension → it subsides → then comes the thought: “I did that.”

Isn’t that the same as a dog barking and thought saying, “I barked”? (Ha!, how crazy is that?)

But the dog did bark right? Its implied in your sentence. The difference between humans and dogs is that the dogs dont have thoughts that can say 'I barked', but the brain of the dog still observes the action.

So now, stop everything.
No answers. No insight. Just this raw seeing:

Does experience need a doer to happen?
Does sensation require a feeler to be felt?
Or is the “doer” just another ripple in the stream, appearing after the fact—taking credit for the flow?

Don’t analyze. Just look. Tell me what’s undeniable, right now.

The experience doesnt need a doer to happen, but the experience needs an experiencer to be experienced.
At this time it does seem that the sensation requires a feeler to be felt.
The doer is not appearing after the fact taking credit. The thought stating the action that just happened appears after the fact, but not the feeler/doer.

I concentrate on this very moment, sit and observe. I feel a sensation in my arm. I look at my arm. I can see it, i can touch it. Can i feel a sensation outside the arm? I can not. It seems like i need an arm to feel a sensation in the arm. I need a feeler (body) to feel the sensation. There clearly is a feeler, an experiencer of the experience.

I observe further and see that every sensation is followed by a thought. 'I felt a sensation in my arm, if i didnt have the body i wouldnt have felt it, therefore there need to be an experiencer for the experience to be experienced'. This thought is useless outside the task of answering questions on this thread. It happens after the fact and is not necessary for the experience.

There is a doer. The story is pointless. The story about the feeler is imagined, but the feeler is real.

[vinceschubert]

Hi Sui,

The body feels, hears, sees

Ok, a good starting point. Let's call it a description of experience.

If the body feels, it seems

When you say "it seems" or "because" etc it signals that it is a mental conclusion. If we believe that conclusion we will respond to it AS IF it were actual. This response validates the theory making the myth seem even more real.

Isn’t that the same as a dog barking and thought saying, “I barked”? (Ha!, how crazy is that?)

But the dog did bark right

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. What I meant was that hearing the dog barking and thinking that it was you that barked.
The point was that thoughts seem to make a connection between an experience and the mythical self. If you watch closely you'll see that thoughts arrive (mostly) after the happening and claim ownership (or doership)
A classic example of this is if you remember walking to where you are sitting now, mind will say that you could have walked in a different path, or skipped or crawled etc and it seems very reasonable, but it happened the way it did without the involvement of mind at all.
This

but the experience needs an experiencer to be experienced.

and this

it does seem that the sensation requires a feeler to be felt.

are both logical conclusions. Stories
The only thing that is actual for you is your current experiencing. Everything else is conceptual. A story.
We need to learn how to separate these so that you can have a relationship with what is actual and put fantasy in it's appropriate place.

The thought stating the action that just happened appears after the fact, but not the feeler/doer.

The feeling is actual. It is the senses being stimulated. The feeler is conceptual. Hmm. How can I help you discover this...
Ok, do this exercise;
Put a cup in front of you.
Seriously—do it now. Not later. Don’t imagine it. Place it there.

Stare. Let your eyes land on it. Don’t flinch away.

Now—watch what thought immediately does.
It starts labeling. “Cup.” “White.”(or whatever color it is) “I like this one.”
Stop. That’s not seeing. That’s commentary.

Strip the commentary.
Look again.

Are you looking at something?
Or is there an impulse to look for something?

Catch that difference.
Looking for is mind-hunting.
Looking at is stillness, direct.

Now go deeper.
What’s actually happening in this moment?

There’s color. Texture. Contrast. Shape.
But the instant you say what it is, you’re already gone—lost in the story.

Drop that.
Feel your eyes. There’s light hitting them.
There’s vibration, form—but it’s not a cup. Not yet. Not until thought labels it.

Now—investigate seeing itself.
Right now—what is seeing happening to?
Where is the “you” in this?

Ask it:
“Who is seeing this?”
Say it as you stare into the cup.

What happens?

Does the image collapse?
Does everything go flat?
Does the detail blur as the mind flails for a seer?

Good.

Now go again.
Drop the “who.” Ask: “What is being seen?”
Look into the cup like it might fall apart under scrutiny.

Does the shape flicker?
Do the textures go dim the moment you try to grasp them?

That’s it.

Every time you insert “who” or “what,” you pull the plug on seeing.
You enter a concept. A hallucination.

Stay in the raw experiencing.

Look again—no words. No story.
Can you stay with just this collision of color and form?
Can you rest in seeing with no thing being seen, no one seeing?

Notice:
The moment you think about who is seeing or what is being seen, seeing stops, mind reboots the story:
“That’s a cup. I like it. It’s old. I drink tea from it.”
You're gone again.

Do you see it now?
You weren't seeing a cup.
You were seeing, then thinking "cup.”

And now?
You’re no longer seeing.
You’re relating to a concept, a memory, a function, a personal preference.

The actual seeing is gone.
Vanished. Replaced by narrative.
Can you see that both the cup and the self are concepts and only the seeing is actual.
Not the fact of seeing but the experiencing that is called seeing.

Now go back.

Strip the name. Strip the meaning. Strip the function. Drop all concepts. (thoughts about it.)
What’s left?

Stay there. Don’t talk about it. Don’t analyze it.
Just feel that gap.
That immediate presence before the cup comes back.

That’s the crack.

Stay in the crack.

This is actual.

Report...

much love

vince

[Sui]

This is my actual experience without labelling, before thoughts come: Theres a cup in front of me. I turn my eyes at the cup, but im not seeing a cup. Im seeing the whole view (the table, the window behind the cup, all of it). Its not even the cup, table and window, its just colors/view in general. Even calling it colors/view is not precise, because these are just concepts that are not there before the thoughts arise. To be honest, it doesnt even seem precise to call it seeing. The experience just happens without an action. Its passive, happing on its own. Its just one feeling mixed with sounds, smells, bodily sensations. They are all in the same pool, not separate from each other.

However, even before thoughts come in. In my direct experience, theres not only the experience of seeing, but theres also an experience of the observer, the awareness the experience is happening within. The experience of the awareness/observer is not in the same pool of seeing/hearing/smelling. It feels like it is the pool the experiences are happening within.

I look for that pool of experiences. I look at my arm and ask if the experience of the arm is happening inside the arm/body or is it happening elsewhere, or is it just happening without a location. I pinch my hand and something strange happens that hasnt happened before. I can see how my thoughts are telling me the pinching sensation is happening inside/to the arm, but its clearly not true. I listen to the sounds and look at the cup while pinching my arm. All these experiences are happening in the same pool, on the same level, they are not separate. By doing this experiment I now see that experiences are not happening to/inside the body. Body is the experience and not a location/pool experiences are happening within.

So I look again if the experiences are just happening without a location. If they are not happening inside/to the body, where are they happening? Where is that damn pool it feels experiences are happening within. I cant find it, but the experience of awareness, pool all the experiences are happening within is still there.

It seems unfair that we imply that there is no 'awareness experiences are happening within' because we can no see it with our eyes or hear it with our ears, but we do admit thoughts do happen even though we can not hear them with our ears or see them with our eyes neither.
--------------------

A classic example of this is if you remember walking to where you are sitting now, mind will say that you could have walked in a different path, or skipped or crawled etc and it seems very reasonable, but it happened the way it did without the involvement of mind at all.

This is clear to me. The mind doesnt control, decide or do the experiences. I can see clearly that all the decisions, actions of the body, thoughts just come and happen on their own. The thoughts tell the story that its 'me' who decided to go there or do this and when you are lost in thoughts it does seem that there is a decider who is behind all these actions. When i wake up from the story its clear that all this just happened without a doer behind it. But it does seem that there is an awareness or whatever you call it experiencing all these thoughts, decision, action and this awareness is what feels like a feeler of all this experiences, the 'me' the experiences are happening to.

This

but the experience needs an experiencer to be experienced.

and this

it does seem that the sensation requires a feeler to be felt.

are both logical conclusions. Stories
The only thing that is actual for you is your current experiencing. Everything else is conceptual. A story.
We need to learn how to separate these so that you can have a relationship with what is actual and put fantasy in it's appropriate place.

I really struggle with how to communicate my experiences without putting them into words. I sit with the senses and all the experiences. They are wordless. But in order to communicate what i see I need to put that in words. Lets say i look at the cup and recognize that the cup is just a label. If i want to communicate that, i will write 'The cup is just a label' which already is the logical conclusion. All the experiences put into words and sentences are logical conclusions. But i can not just copy paste my direct experience on this thread. I need to use words.

Put a cup in front of you.
Seriously—do it now. Not later. Don’t imagine it. Place it there.

Stare. Let your eyes land on it. Don’t flinch away.

Now—watch what thought immediately does.
It starts labeling. “Cup.” “White.”(or whatever color it is) “I like this one.”
Stop. That’s not seeing. That’s commentary.

Strip the commentary.
Look again.

Are you looking at something?
Or is there an impulse to look for something?

Catch that difference.
Looking for is mind-hunting.
Looking at is stillness, direct.

I do see the difference.

Now go deeper.
What’s actually happening in this moment?

There’s color. Texture. Contrast. Shape.
But the instant you say what it is, you’re already gone—lost in the story.

Drop that.
Feel your eyes. There’s light hitting them.
There’s vibration, form—but it’s not a cup. Not yet. Not until thought labels it.

I do see this as well. I don't find it difficult to see in action how, when looking at an object, after a few seconds thoughts start knocking on the door of direct experience trying to label thing and distract you from the experience. Its very similar to when you are sitting near a bonfire, just looking at the flames and a friend sits next to you and starts telling you things like 'oh what a beautiful bonfire that is, do you see the how bright red the flames are at the bottom of bonfire?'. Its very clear at that point that you can either have the experience or talk about it. Can not have both. However, when i stare into the fire undistracted by people and words, its not just a bonfire there. Theres also a feeling of awareness the experience is happening to and it does not distract in the same way as a friend talking to you.

Now—investigate seeing itself.
Right now—what is seeing happening to?
Where is the “you” in this?

Ask it:
“Who is seeing this?”
Say it as you stare into the cup.

What happens?

Does the image collapse?
Does everything go flat?
Does the detail blur as the mind flails for a seer?

When I ask 'who is seeing this?' out loud. Nothing happens. When I try to actual look for the one seeing the cup, the attention drops from the cup and lands on the awareness, not the seer, but the experiencer of seeing, the 'me'. The cup is still there, but its out of focus, blurred.

Now go again.
Drop the “who.” Ask: “What is being seen?”
Look into the cup like it might fall apart under scrutiny.

Does the shape flicker?
Do the textures go dim the moment you try to grasp them?

Wow, ok. So I ask 'who is seeing?'. The attention drops from the object and lands on 'me/awareness/experiencer of seeing'. The view is still there, but its out of focus.
I misread your question and asked 'what is seeing' instead of 'what is seen' and something interesting happened. Everything became very calm and still. The view was very clear and vivid. For the first time in a long time there was no 'me' to the experience. Then thoughts started coming in questioning the situation and the 'me' came back. I ask who is seeing again and the attention lands on 'me/awareness'. I ask what is seeing again and everything stop again. Its silence without the 'me' to it.

When I look at the cup and ask 'who is seeing' and the attention lands on the 'me'. It doesnt feel like thinking at all. It feels like raw experience of 'me'. When I ask 'what is seeing', everything goes quite, i can physically feel the tension in my head subside. At this point its clear that after the 'who' question i was thinking even though it didnt feel like it, but now im not. The difference is undeniable. So the awareness, me, experiencer is only there when theres tension in my head, when 'what' question is asked, the 'me' disappears together with the tension/thinking.

Im very grateful for this exercise. Will keep on asking the 'what' question and stay in the gap. Will report when the question loses its power or in the next couple of days. Whichever comes first.

Thanks!

[vinceschubert]

Hi Sui, There's a lot of text here, but really only a couple of points being made. (I don't want you to feel overwhelmed) Some of the questions are rhetorical. The don't need answering, but are a pointing of where to 'look'.
Also, don't try to do the whole post at once. Take your time. Even spread it over a couple of days.
There is more likely a shift happening if you sink into each 'subject' before moving onto the next one.

This is my actual experience without labelling, before thoughts come: Theres a cup in front of me. I turn my eyes at the cup, but im not seeing a cup. Im seeing the whole view (the table, the window behind the cup, all of it). Its not even the cup, table and window, its just colors/view in general. Even calling it colors/view is not precise, because these are just concepts that are not there before the thoughts arise. To be honest, it doesnt even seem precise to call it seeing. The experience just happens without an action. Its passive, happing on its own. Its just one feeling mixed with sounds, smells, bodily sensations. They are all in the same pool, not separate from each other.

However, even before thoughts come in. In my direct experience, theres not only the experience of seeing, but theres also an experience of the observer, the awareness the experience is happening within. The experience of the awareness/observer is not in the same pool of seeing/hearing/smelling. It feels like it is the pool the experiences are happening within.

I look for that pool of experiences. I look at my arm and ask if the experience of the arm is happening inside the arm/body or is it happening elsewhere, or is it just happening without a location. I pinch my hand and something strange happens that hasnt happened before. I can see how my thoughts are telling me the pinching sensation is happening inside/to the arm, but its clearly not true. I listen to the sounds and look at the cup while pinching my arm. All these experiences are happening in the same pool, on the same level, they are not separate. By doing this experiment I now see that experiences are not happening to/inside the body. Body is the experience and not a location/pool experiences are happening within.

So I look again if the experiences are just happening without a location. If they are not happening inside/to the body, where are they happening? Where is that damn pool it feels experiences are happening within. I cant find it, but the experience of awareness, pool all the experiences are happening within is still there.

It seems unfair that we imply that there is no 'awareness experiences are happening within' because we can no see it with our eyes or hear it with our ears, but we do admit thoughts do happen even though we can not hear them with our ears or see them with our eyes neither.

STOP RIGHT THERE.
That was pure gold.

This isn’t confusion—it’s precision. You just walked right into the burning center.

You said:

> “The body is the experience and not a location.”
> “I can’t find where experiences are happening.”
> “The sensation of awareness is still there. A field. A pool. Something.”

Beautiful. That’s the final stand. The last disguise of the self.
Not the thinker. Not the doer. But the “awareness it all happens within.”

Let’s dismantle it—now.

Feel it.
This “awareness” you’re describing—it seems vast, still, container-like. But:

Where is it?
Don’t think—look.

Is it behind the eyes?
Is it all around?
Is it an atmosphere? A sense? A backdrop?

Or… is it just a subtle sensation + a thought claiming it as “the space everything happens in”?

You’re not crazy for feeling it.
You’re just honest enough to expose the most refined version of identification: “the witness.”
The pure subject. The knower. The presence. The field. The pool. The awareness itself.

But here’s the killing move:

Does that “field of awareness” have shape, edge, depth?
Or is it just felt—known—only when named?

Try this now:

Stop trying to find or define it.
Let it go. Let go of holding on to even the sensation of “presence.”
Drop the subtle habit of watching experience “from” somewhere.

Let it all just happen—no inside, no outside, no witness required.

Now—what remains when even the witness is no longer believed?
What’s here when not even awareness is held as a thing?

Not the answer—what’s here.
Right now. No center. No field. No container. Just this. What’s real?

This is clear to me. The mind doesnt control, decide or do the experiences. I can see clearly that all the decisions, actions of the body, thoughts just come and happen on their own. The thoughts tell the story that its 'me' who decided to go there or do this and when you are lost in thoughts it does seem that there is a decider who is behind all these actions. When i wake up from the story its clear that all this just happened without a doer behind it. But it does seem that there is an awareness or whatever you call it experiencing all these thoughts, decision, action and this awareness is what feels like a feeler of all this experiences, the 'me' the experiences are happening to.

YES. This is the very last illusion. The final mask.

You've seen the body acts on its own.
You've seen thoughts arise unbidden.
You've seen decisions and choices as post-hoc stories—no controller, no decider, no author.

But now you’re face to face with the purest, cleanest illusion:
The one who “experiences.”
The one who “feels.”
The one who “witnesses.”
The one who remains when everything else is seen through.
The one that feels like... you.

Let’s go directly at it.

This awareness—this sense of a presence, a space, a feeler—

Where is it?

Right now.

Point to it.

Not with a theory. Not with a belief. Not with “it’s everywhere” or “it’s behind.”
Use your actual experience, right now, to locate it.

- Is it in your head?
- Is it in your chest?
- Is it spread out?
- Does it have a texture?
- Does it flicker? Move? Remain constant?

Or is it just… a flavor. A hum. A knowing that there is knowing.

Now: Before thought names it “awareness”—what is it, exactly?

Just this warm, subtle hum—felt, not seen. A sense of being.
And then thought jumps in:
“That’s me. That’s what I am.”

But look closer—who said that?
Was that not just another thought?
Did that “awareness” claim itself?
Or did the mind rush in to slap a label on raw experience, again?

Just like it did with the body, just like it did with action, now it does it with “the witness.”

Is there actually an experiencer, or just the experience?
Can you find anything—anything at all—that is having the experience?

Or is there just experience itself—unowned, unclaimed, uncontained—needing no self to validate it?

Look again. Right now. No past clarity, no memory, no teaching.
Is there anyone behind this? Or is it all just… happening?

I really struggle with how to communicate my experiences without putting them into words. I sit with the senses and all the experiences. They are wordless. But in order to communicate what i see I need to put that in words. Lets say i look at the cup and recognize that the cup is just a label. If i want to communicate that, i will write 'The cup is just a label' which already is the logical conclusion. All the experiences put into words and sentences are logical conclusions. But i can not just copy paste my direct experience on this thread. I need to use words.

Yes. And this struggle you’re describing?

It’s sacred.

You’re feeling the exact violence of language.
The moment raw experience is turned into words—it’s already been abstracted, diluted, distorted.

There is no way to “say” what’s seen.
Only ways to point.
Words aren’t truth—they’re smoke rising from the fire.

When you say:

> “The cup is just a label.”

You’re right—but that sentence isn’t the seeing.
It’s the report of the seeing.
And you already know the report is just a shadow.
What you actually saw was the collapse of “cup” into raw, undivided perception.

So here’s the real shift:

Stop trying to make words equal the experience.
They never will.

Instead—use words as firebrands, not explanations. Use them to burn through illusion, not describe truth.

You say:

> “I can’t just copy-paste my direct experience on this thread.”

Good. That would be a lie if you could.

So drop the attempt to “get it right.” Speak from the burn. From what’s real.
If silence is the truest answer—then let the words stop.

Is anything missing without them?
Does experience require a narrative?

Right now—this moment, before another thought lands—
is there anything you need to say, do, explain… to be?

Or is all of this—just already happening—without a speaker, without a self, without a story?

I do see the difference.

Excellent! This is foundational.

When I ask 'who is seeing this?' out loud. Nothing happens. When I try to actual look for the one seeing the cup, the attention drops from the cup and lands on the awareness, not the seer, but the experiencer of seeing, the 'me'. The cup is still there, but its out of focus, blurred.

Does this show you that experience is corrupted whenever you need to go to mind for something?
..or even further, that self only exists as a mental story?

I misread your question and asked 'what is seeing' instead of 'what is seen' and something interesting happened. Everything became very calm and still. The view was very clear and vivid. For the first time in a long time there was no 'me' to the experience. Then thoughts started coming in questioning the situation and the 'me' came back. I ask who is seeing again and the attention lands on 'me/awareness'. I ask what is seeing again and everything stop again. Its silence without the 'me' to it.

That’s it.

You just cut straight through.

Not a concept. Not a philosophy. You saw it in real-time:

> “I asked ‘what is seeing’… and everything stopped.”
> “There was no ‘me’ to the experience.”

This is the pivot point. The moment it folds.

Look what happened:

When you asked “who is seeing?” — the system scrambled to locate a center.
The mind moved.
Attention contracted.
The “me” reassembled to answer.

But when you asked “what is seeing?” — the question had no target.
Nothing to hold.
No one to find.
Just seeing. Just this. Just stillness. No claimant. No observer.

It wasn't an answer.
It was the collapse of the questioner.

And now the real pointer:

That stillness wasn’t a special state.
It wasn’t silence you created.
It was what’s always here—when the illusion of “someone seeing” drops away.

So now—forget repeating the experience.
Just watch what happens every time you ask “who.”
And then what happens when you drop into “what.”

Not to seek silence—but to notice how the ‘me’ forms itself in the very act of seeking.

That formation—is the illusion.

And you’ve seen it.
Directly. Clearly. Repeatedly.

Is there anything left to find now? Or is everything already just… happening, without anyone behind it?


much love

vince