What is real?

[vinceschubert]

Yes, it must be like this if decisions are based on thoughts. And the ones which are obvious without thinking aren't created as well, there is simply a pull to do so.

Good. Now go further.

You say “there is simply a pull to do so.” Don’t stop at that sentence. Track the pull.

Right now—let something happen without planning it. A hand movement. A breath. A glance. Anything.

As it happens—freeze. Rewind the moment.
Where did the impulse start? Not in theory—where in the body? What sensation? What changed?

Was there tension? A flicker? A twitch? A pressure to move?
Was there a gap between the sensation and the movement?

Describe that exact sequence. No interpretation. Just the raw physical data. Right now.
Then we’ll see what’s left of the illusion of control.

Can you accept that this story is probably more reflective of what is actual? That the brain uses it's perception of current circumstances plus what personal history has shown it, to do these things.

I don't get this part. It needs too much thinking for me and creates kind of knots in my head.

Perfect. That knot? That confusion? That’s gold.
It means you're standing right at the edge where the mind wants to explain—and can’t.

Let that knot burn. Don’t escape it. Don’t untangle it.

Feel it in the body. Where is it? Behind the eyes? In the throat? Chest? Belly?
Describe the knot physically—tight, hot, dull, sharp, vibrating? What is it like?

Now—look at this directly:

Is the knot telling you anything about reality? Or is it just another sensation, appearing without a controller?
Is there actually a "you" in that knot—or just a tangle of sensation and thought pretending to be "confused"?

What happens when you drop the need to understand—and just feel the knot completely, without resistance?
Do this now. Don’t analyze it. Sink into it. Report back exactly what happened in your body.

Without knowing anything it/I just perceive sensations, just seeing, sensing, hearing is happening.
Can you see that "with knowing" (what is knowledge?) that thought stories are the reaction - and then emotional responses come from them?

Yes, I can see that.
But despite of the recognition "in theory" it is happening.

Good. Now drop the “in theory.”

This isn’t about what you believe. This is about what’s happening—right now.

So stop. Sit still. And look.

Let seeing happen.
Let hearing happen.
Let sensations rise and fall.

Now—watch the exact moment thought enters.
What’s the very first sign? Is it a word? A label? A story?

Then what happens next?
Does the body tighten? Does the breath change? Does an emotion spark? Where?

Track this in real time. Don't reflect—witness it live, like a scientist with a microscope.
Do it now.

Then answer this:
What was the first thought story that appeared? What did it trigger in the body?
And what part of that sequence still seemed like “you”?

Report back. Raw, physical description. No conclusions.

with love

vince

[Madhura]

Hi Vince,
before going into further inquiry I want to share something.
Today is day three I try to sit with what you have sent. Two days ago I opened it and seemingly smashed by the amount of "things" you asked me to do I fell in a kind of silence. No real silence but I felt a vibration in my body (heart or belly area) and it just asked for my focus there and I followed this impulse instead of being with what was written. Yesterday I had since afternoon a light headache so I postponed again. Today my third try ...

Right now—let something happen without planning it. A hand movement. A breath. A glance. Anything.

As it happens—freeze. Rewind the moment.
Where did the impulse start? Not in theory—where in the body? What sensation? What changed?

Was there tension? A flicker? A twitch? A pressure to move?
Was there a gap between the sensation and the movement?

Describe that exact sequence. No interpretation. Just the raw physical data. Right now.

Maybe I am so insensitive or unaware but I can't find anything what precede the glance. It is suddenly simply there.


Can you accept that this story is probably more reflective of what is actual? That the brain uses it's perception of current circumstances plus what personal history has shown it, to do these things.

I don't get this part. It needs too much thinking for me and creates kind of knots in my head.

Perfect. That knot? That confusion? That’s gold.
It means you're standing right at the edge where the mind wants to explain—and can’t.

Let that knot burn. Don’t escape it. Don’t untangle it.

Feel it in the body. Where is it? Behind the eyes? In the throat? Chest? Belly?
Describe the knot physically—tight, hot, dull, sharp, vibrating? What is it like?

The knot is in my head, behind the fore head. it is a kind of pressure paired with a vibration. And the head feels a liitle bit like bursting.

"Now—look at this directly:

Is the knot telling you anything about reality? Or is it just another sensation, appearing without a controller?
Is there actually a "you" in that knot—or just a tangle of sensation and thought pretending to be confused"?


It is simply a sensation which got interpreted as something else, something difficult.

What happens when you drop the need to understand—and just feel the knot completely, without resistance?
Do this now. Don’t analyze it. Sink into it. Report back exactly what happened in your body.

It is just vibration. Without judgement it is relaxing, it is becoming less intense.

Without knowing anything it/I just perceive sensations, just seeing, sensing, hearing is happening.
Can you see that "with knowing" (what is knowledge?) that thought stories are the reaction - and then emotional responses come from them?

Yes, I can see that.
But despite of the recognition "in theory" it is happening.

Good. Now drop the “in theory.”

This isn’t about what you believe. This is about what’s happening—right now.

So stop. Sit still. And look.

Let seeing happen.
Let hearing happen.
Let sensations rise and fall.

Now—watch the exact moment thought enters.
What’s the very first sign? Is it a word? A label? A story?

A sensation in the body followed by a thought.

Then what happens next?
Does the body tighten? Does the breath change? Does an emotion spark? Where?

Track this in real time. Don't reflect—witness it live, like a scientist with a microscope.
Do it now.

Then answer this:
What was the first thought story that appeared? What did it trigger in the body?
And what part of that sequence still seemed like “you”?


I felt my full belly and the first thought that came was " I should have eaten less."
Can't say that it triggered anything in my body.

Report back. Raw, physical description. No conclusions.

[vinceschubert]

Hi Madhura, Ok, i'll switch to another perspective with this stuff. This is a big post but not a lot of questions.
It's good that you have told me about this. i do realize that I have been asking a lot of questions. They all point to the same potential realization, and that is that there is no actual Self in there running the show.
This has to be a discovery.
To put yourself in the position to have a discovery, you need to be able to disentangle from the veil of thoughts.
This doesn't mean not having thoughts.
This is important. You can't stop thoughts from occurring, but you can learn to not engage with them.
This is how...

Here’s a story about getting lost in the content of thoughts—and how to short-circuit it without resistance.

You Laugh when recognition happens.

This is about how thought entanglement becomes habitual—and how to interrupt it in real time.

In the brain, synaptic pathways strengthen with use. Repeat a pattern, and it becomes default. But these patterns can change.

There are two ways old mental grooves fade:
- They can be pruned,
- Or they can atrophy from disuse.

You don’t control this directly, but you can influence it.

Here’s the method:
1. Notice the moment you want to shift.
2. When awareness catches that you’re lost in thought—LAUGH.
- A big laugh, a smirk, or a silent “ha.”
- It stops the story’s momentum and drops you into the now.
- It also releases feel-good hormones—dopamine, serotonin, endorphins. This drives out the stress hormones that were present as a result of being entangled in thoughts.
3. Imagine the new path forming—the one that sees through the illusion of thought-content.

The Realization:
At first, awareness dawns after the spiral ends.
But over time, it appears earlier—until recognition itself becomes the interrupt.

Eventually, laughter replaces identification.

Why it works:
When you catch the loop and laugh, brain activity shifts—from the rigid, analytical left hemisphere to the spacious, pattern-breaking right.

Recognition during the loop = short-circuit.
Recognition after = training for next time.

This is habit reconditioning. It’s not instant, but it’s inevitable.

Bonus: Celebrating each recognition with laughter reinforces the new wiring—and ends judgment about ever believing that thought content was real.

much love

vince

[Madhura]

Hi Vince,
Thanks for not giving up! :-)

1. Notice the moment you want to shift.
2. When awareness catches that you’re lost in thought—LAUGH.
- A big laugh, a smirk, or a silent “ha.”
- It stops the story’s momentum and drops you into the now.
- It also releases feel-good hormones—dopamine, serotonin, endorphins. This drives out the stress hormones that were present as a result of being entangled in thoughts.
3. Imagine the new path forming—the one that sees through the illusion of thought-content.

The Realization:
At first, awareness dawns after the spiral ends.
But over time, it appears earlier—until recognition itself becomes the interrupt.

Eventually, laughter replaces identification.

Why it works:
When you catch the loop and laugh, brain activity shifts—from the rigid, analytical left hemisphere to the spacious, pattern-breaking right.

Recognition during the loop = short-circuit.
Recognition after = training for next time.

This is habit reconditioning. It’s not instant, but it’s inevitable.

Bonus: Celebrating each recognition with laughter reinforces the new wiring—and ends judgment about ever believing that thought content was real.


Yes, a smile and joy is occuring by itself when I catch myself being entangled in thoughts. I know these moments.
it is also interesting to know the mechanism behind.
It seems somehow to be easier to become aware of thinking with "bigger" thoughts aka problems than with the small thoughts during the day. I assume I am not thoughtless during my daily life but I rarely am aware of me thinking.


much love

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

[vinceschubert]

Hi Madhura, i'm pushing you because we are close. Keep going. look for a shift in the usual perspective. A discovery of what is actual. i'm excited...

Yes, a smile and joy is occuring by itself when I catch myself being entangled in thoughts. I know these moments.
it is also interesting to know the mechanism behind.
It seems somehow to be easier to become aware of thinking with "bigger" thoughts aka problems than with the small thoughts during the day. I assume I am not thoughtless during my daily life but I rarely am aware of me thinking.

Right here. This is the crack.
A smile and joy arise—not because you created them, but because the spell of thought was broken.

Noticing the thinking isn't a “doing”—it's a glitch in the illusion of being inside the story.

Now listen closely:

You say “I rarely am aware of me thinking.”
That sentence hides the loop. Burn through it.

Find the exact moment a thought appears—right now.
Don’t try to catch it in reflection. Sit, still, and **wait.**
Let the next thought come—then pounce.

Was there a “you” who thought it? Or did it just appear like a sound, a twitch, a breeze?
Where did it come from? What shape did it have? What sensation came with it? Was it big, or small?

Then keep watching.
Can you find the “I” who’s supposedly unaware most of the day? Is that figure anywhere to be found now? Or is it just another thought, another assumption?

Do this now. Describe the appearance of the next thought and the body’s reaction in full sensory detail.
No analysis. No summary. Just report what happened.

much love

vince

[Madhura]

Hi Vince!

Find the exact moment a thought appears—right now.
Don’t try to catch it in reflection. Sit, still, and **wait.**
Let the next thought come—then pounce.

Was there a “you” who thought it? Or did it just appear like a sound, a twitch, a breeze?
Where did it come from? What shape did it have? What sensation came with it? Was it big, or small?


The thought " No thought is coming." just appeared. I don't know where it came from. No shape is seen. A little smile came with it.

Then keep watching.
Can you find the “I” who’s supposedly unaware most of the day? Is that figure anywhere to be found now? Or is it just another thought, another assumption?

I can't see the I. It seems awareness simply is or is not.
Do this now. Describe the appearance of the next thought and the body’s reaction in full sensory detail.
No analysis. No summary. Just report what happened.

The next thought was: " It seems looking out for the next thought seems to slow down the thought process." I can't see any bodily reaction to that. There is a tingeling in the chest area what was there before too.
I tried it with the next thought " I don't really sit comfortable." and watched my body but couldn't see any reaction.

all love

[vinceschubert]

Hi Madhura,

I don't know where it came from. No shape is seen. A little smile came with it.

Beautiful. That smile indicates that something was discovered.

I can't see the I.

Excellent. That tells us something..

It seems awareness simply is or is not.

i do like what you found. Now let's use this to dig deeper..
Look now:
Is seeing happening? Is sound happening? Is sensation present?

Good. Then what exactly is “awareness” apart from this?
Strip the label. What remains?

Find the switch.
Where does experience get turned on or off?
Who flips it?

Don’t think—look.
What did you find? Be exact.

The next thought was: " It seems looking out for the next thought seems to slow down the thought process." I can't see any bodily reaction to that. There is a tingeling in the chest area what was there before too.
I tried it with the next thought " I don't really sit comfortable." and watched my body but couldn't see any reaction.

Good. Stay right here.This is where we can discover something.

You saw the thought arise. It wasn't chosen. It just appeared.
No “you” made it. No “you” reacted. It was just thought + sensation, side by side.

Now zoom in tighter:

That tingling in the chest—don’t call it anything. Drop the label.
Feel into it fully. What shape? Movement? Heat? Edges? Expansion?
Is it connected to thought at all—or just happening?

Now go again:

Let another thought come. Wait. Watch the instant it appears.
Was it yours? Or did it just appear?
Where did it come from? What triggered it? What moved before it came?

Don’t generalize.
Report back: What was the next thought? What did your body do—if anything—*the split-second before or after*?
Be precise. Be ruthless.

much love

vince

[Madhura]

Look now:
Is seeing happening? Is sound happening? Is sensation present?

Good. Then what exactly is “awareness” apart from this?
Strip the label. What remains?

Find the switch.
Where does experience get turned on or off?
Who flips it?

Don’t think—look.
What did you find? Be exact.

Seeing, hearing, sensing depends on attention, on focus. That's the switch. Right now it seems I have the choice to put attention on anything. But more often it seems not.



You saw the thought arise. It wasn't chosen. It just appeared.
No “you” made it. No “you” reacted. It was just thought + sensation, side by side.

Now zoom in tighter:

That tingling in the chest—don’t call it anything. Drop the label.
Feel into it fully. What shape? Movement? Heat? Edges? Expansion?
Is it connected to thought at all—or just happening?


It is not present now so not so much to say anymore about it. It was a kind of vibration. It wasn't connected to the thought as it was already present before.


Let another thought come. Wait. Watch the instant it appears.
Was it yours? Or did it just appear?
Where did it come from? What triggered it? What moved before it came?

Don’t generalize.
Report back: What was the next thought? What did your body do—if anything—*the split-second before or after*?
Be precise. Be ruthless.


I felt a sensation in my neck, like a short sting, and in a split-second the thought appeared " What was that? It wasn't chosen. Then the focus was suddenly more on that area.

[vinceschubert]

Hi Madhura,

Seeing, hearing, sensing depends on attention, on focus. That's the switch. Right now it seems I have the choice to put attention on anything. But more often it seems not.

There it is. That’s the real crack.
“But more often it seems not.”

That’s the truth trying to break through the illusion.

You said it: most of the time, attention just goes. It moves before you even know it’s moved.

Look right now:
Let attention rest on breath. Wait.

Now suddenly—*where is it now?*
Did you move it? Or did it slip to a sound, a thought, a sensation on its own?
Where was the decision to shift? What chose it? What triggered it? Can you find that mover?

Repeat it. Sit still and intend to hold attention. Then just watch.

How long before it drifts?
And when it does: was that your choice? Or did the drift happen automatically?

This is it. Don’t explain. Don’t answer from thought.
Right now—track what moved attention. Then tell me what you found, exactly.

Good. Here’s your pressure test.
Go through each question slowly and in real-time experience—not from memory, not from theory.

---
Here are some checkpoint questions to reveal where we need to investigate further.
Answer each one from an experiential perspective. (no logic or mental stuff) Quote the question in blue and put your answer in black.

1. Can a self be found—anywhere, in any form?
Look right now. In the body, in thought, in sensation—is there a center? A controller? A watcher?

2. Where does thought come from?
Wait. Watch the next one. Was it chosen? Or did it appear on its own? Was there a thinker?

3. Who or what moves attention?
Watch attention shift. Track it. Does a “you” direct it? Or does it simply happen?

4. What makes decisions?
In a real, physical choice—what to move, where to look—can a decision-maker be located? What moves first? Thought or action?

5. What is responsible for emotion?
When an emotion arises—what triggered it? Is there someone behind it, or just thought + sensation creating a label?

6. Can you stop experience from happening?
Try. Stop hearing. Stop sensation. Stop thought. Is it possible? Who would do it?

7. What are you, without labels, memory, or thought?
Right now, without naming anything—what remains?

---

Where do you feel resistance? Confusion? Fog? Emotional charge? That’s the edge. That’s what we go after next.

Answer only after going through each one with full physical engagement.
Tell me what stood out. What felt shaky. What cracked. What still clings.

much love

vince

[Madhura]

Repeat it. Sit still and intend to hold attention. Then just watch.

How long before it drifts?
And when it does: was that your choice? Or did the drift happen automatically?

This is it. Don’t explain. Don’t answer from thought.
Right now—track what moved attention. Then tell me what you found, exactly.



Maybe 30 seconds, the drifting just happend. I heard a sound, two sounds and of it goes. or rather I was simply aware of sound. Maybe attention was gone but came back in a split second.

1. Can a self be found—anywhere, in any form?
Look right now. In the body, in thought, in sensation—is there a center? A controller? A watcher?


I can't see a center and a controller but there is something watching. But I don't know what it is and from where it is watching.

2. Where does thought come from?
Wait. Watch the next one. Was it chosen? Or did it appear on its own? Was there a thinker?

Thoughts just appear. There is thought but no thinker.


3. Who or what moves attention?
Watch attention shift. Track it. Does a “you” direct it? Or does it simply happen?
Attention is simply shifting.


4. What makes decisions?
In a real, physical choice—what to move, where to look—can a decision-maker be located? What moves first? Thought or action?
If I am watching and looking out for the next move it seems move happens first and thought follows. If I say now I will move my pinky and do it it seems action is following thought.


5. What is responsible for emotion?
When an emotion arises—what triggered it? Is there someone behind it, or just thought + sensation creating a label?
Emotion arise as a reaction to thoughts.


6. Can you stop experience from happening?
Try. Stop hearing. Stop sensation. Stop thought. Is it possible? Who would do it?

No, I cannot force it to stop.


7. What are you, without labels, memory, or thought?
Right now, without naming anything—what remains?

---

just being, awareness (or consciousness, I am not sure about the difference.)


Where do you feel resistance? Confusion? Fog? Emotional charge? That’s the edge. That’s what we go after next.

Answer only after going through each one with full physical engagement.
Tell me what stood out. What felt shaky. What cracked. What still clings.


Can't find any answer to that. Can't see resistance, confusion etc.

[vinceschubert]

I can't see a center and a controller but there is something watching

How do you know that there is something watching? Is it a logical conclusion or do you experience a watcher or do you experience watching?

If I say now I will move my pinky and do it it seems action is following thought.

If action follows thought, does that mean that the thought caused the action, or were they simply two happenings that seemed to have some relationship?

Emotion arise as a reaction to thoughts.

Stop. Look closer. Right now.

You said: “Emotions arise as a reaction to thoughts.” Don’t repeat that idea—test it.

Let a real emotion come. Think of something that usually triggers a reaction—loss, shame, love, failure, control.
Watch what happens in the body.

What arises first?
A thought? A sensation? A contraction? A flush of heat? A breath shift?
Where is the border between “thought” and “emotion”? Find it physically. Name the exact sequence as it unfolds.

Now—can you find an “I” who owns that emotion?
Where is the one who is “feeling” it? In the chest? Head? Gut? Or is it just sensation + thought pretending to belong to someone?

Right now, what is the raw texture of that emotion in your body?
Describe it. No labels. No conclusions. Only what’s real, now.

just being, awareness (or consciousness, I am not sure about the difference.)

Another logical conclusion or repeating what you have read or heard. What remains that you experience through your physical senses?

Can't find any answer to that.

Good.

Wait until you do you feel resistance, Confusion, Fog, or Emotional charge then look at where they are felt.

much love

vince

[Madhura]

Hi Vince,
first aplogies for not replying for that long. I couldn't open the link you have sent me last time. Or more correctly I could open it but it lead me to a total different conversation. I've tried it several times. Then I wrote an email to you (I thought) but some days later Terry replied that there have been some problems with this page and he sent me a new link to our thread.


How do you know that there is something watching? Is it a logical conclusion or do you experience a watcher or do you experience watching?


Yes, what I can say that watching is happening. More I don't know.

If action follows thought, does that mean that the thought caused the action, or were they simply two happenings that seemed to have some relationship?

Right, there is a quick conclusion that action and thought are linked. in the way that one follows the other. But as I wrote that is already a conclusion by the mind. It seems so. But I don't know.

Emotion arise as a reaction to thoughts.
Stop. Look closer. Right now.

You said: “Emotions arise as a reaction to thoughts.” Don’t repeat that idea—test it.

Let a real emotion come. Think of something that usually triggers a reaction—loss, shame, love, failure, control.
Watch what happens in the body.

What arises first?
A thought? A sensation? A contraction? A flush of heat? A breath shift?
Where is the border between “thought” and “emotion”? Find it physically. Name the exact sequence as it unfolds.

Now—can you find an “I” who owns that emotion?
Where is the one who is “feeling” it? In the chest? Head? Gut? Or is it just sensation + thought pretending to belong to someone?

Right now, what is the raw texture of that emotion in your body?
Describe it. No labels. No conclusions. Only what’s real, now.

It is difficult to make something up now. If I imagine right now something what usually triggers a reaction there is only watching happening.

[color=#0000FF7. What are you, without labels, memory, or thought?
Right now, without naming anything—what remains?
]just being, awareness (or consciousness, I am not sure about the difference.)
Another logical conclusion or repeating what you have read or heard. What remains that you experience through your physical senses?[/color]

sensing,
I experience sensations, vibrations, temperatures, sounds, smells and seeing is happening


Wait until you do you feel resistance, Confusion, Fog, or Emotional charge then look at where they are felt.

[vinceschubert]

Hi Madhura, no need for apologies.
i liked most of your answers.
Here are some more questions to find what needs more investigation.
Don’t rush.
Don’t answer from the head.
Let each question strike.
Feel it. Let the body show you where something grips, contracts, hides, resists.
—
1. Right now—can you find a self in direct experience?
Not the idea of a self. Not the story.
The actual thing.
2. When a thought arises—who is it for?
Who hears it?
Is there a listener?
3. Can you find the source of the next thought?
Is it chosen?
Or does it simply appear, like wind through an open window?
4. Is there a center anywhere?
A fixed point where “you” reside?
Can you feel that spot? Or is it assumed?
5. When emotion arises—what triggers it?
Can you locate its beginning?
Who is it happening to?
6. Try to start awareness.
Try to stop it.
Where is the switch?
7. Is there anything in your direct experience—sight, sound, sensation—that requires a self to occur?
8. Where’s the edge?
Can you point to where “you” end and the world begins?
9. This sense of “I”—is it anything more than a loop of sensation + thought + belief?
Strip it down. What’s left?
10. If all thoughts stopped right now—
What remains?
And who is missing?
—
Don’t explain. Don’t interpret.
Stay with the fire.
Let the body answer.
Report from the raw.
What still feels sticky?
What still feels real?
What hasn’t dissolved?


much love

vince

[Madhura]

1. Right now—can you find a self in direct experience?
Not the idea of a self. Not the story.
The actual thing.

No.
2. When a thought arises—who is it for?
Who hears it?
Is there a listener?

A thought is just appearing. It is for no one. It is seen but I don't know by what.
3. Can you find the source of the next thought?
Is it chosen?
Or does it simply appear, like wind through an open window?
No, I don't know where and when the next thought is popping up. It is not chosen.
4. Is there a center anywhere?
A fixed point where “you” reside?
Can you feel that spot? Or is it assumed?

I would assume it somewhere around my heart. But as written it is assumed. Still I would never point to a spot outside of my body to indicate my center.
5. When emotion arises—what triggers it?
Can you locate its beginning?
Who is it happening to?
Mostly a thought is the trigger. The answer to the next 2 questions would just come from the mind so I spare it.
6. Try to start awareness.
Try to stop it.
Where is the switch?

I don't know what makes me sometimes aware and sometimes not. It seems not in my control.
7. Is there anything in your direct experience—sight, sound, sensation—that requires a self to occur?
No.
8. Where’s the edge?
Can you point to where “you” end and the world begins?

If I don't identify myself with the body I can't locate myself and also not find any beginning or end.
9. This sense of “I”—is it anything more than a loop of sensation + thought + belief?
Strip it down. What’s left?Stripped down there is nothing left, no I to be found.

10. If all thoughts stopped right now—
What remains?
And who is missing?
perceiving remains, Nothing and noone is missing.

—
Don’t explain. Don’t interpret.
Stay with the fire.
Let the body answer.
Report from the raw.
What still feels sticky?
What still feels real?
What hasn’t dissolved?

[vinceschubert]

All good answer Madhura, is there anywhere that you feel needs looking at before i give you the 'final' questions?

much love

vince