Feeling stuck and looking for guidance

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chii
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Re: Feeling stuck and looking for guidance

Postby chii » Tue Feb 25, 2025 8:48 am

Where are you looking to find an answer? Are you expecting thought to give you an answer?
Yes I see I am going to thought for the answer.
What happens if you simply ask the question just once - and don't go to or wait for an answer from the mind - but simply LOOK?

What do you experience when you ignore all thought and images about an answer? Please describe as best you can that direct experience as you simply LOOK and FEEL what's happening as you "do" that
I can't find an answer to the question outside of thought. There is only the experience of seeing, feeling and the observer can't be found in that.

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Alless
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Re: Feeling stuck and looking for guidance

Postby Alless » Tue Feb 25, 2025 11:33 am

Hello Chii
Yes I see I am going to thought for the answer.
So important to see that.

I can't find an answer to the question outside of thought.
Implied in your answer is the belief that an answer cannot come outside of thought.
Do you see that belief implied in the statement?




Is it the truth that no answer can come without thought?




There is only the experience of seeing, feeling and the observer can't be found in that.
Where else can an answer be found?



Where else could an observer be found?



If the thought "I can't find the observer" is ignored, (not believed) what happens?



Is the answer right "under your nose?"



Are you overlooking what you are seeing?



Is what you are seeing an unsatisfying answer?



If so, what sort of answer would satisfy?




Let the following statement really sink in.

There is no separate self, never has been and never will be. That there is, is all just a made up story, a figment of the imagination.
What reactions - from none to subtle to strong - come up when you read that statement?



What's the first thought to pop into your head?



Do you feel any emotion(s) rising at all?



Any other reactions - subtle or strong?



.

.

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chii
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Re: Feeling stuck and looking for guidance

Postby chii » Wed Feb 26, 2025 10:19 am

Do you see that belief implied in the statement?
Yes I see the belief.
Is it the truth that no answer can come without thought?
Yes that's true.
There is only the experience of seeing, feeling and the observer can't be found in that.
Where else can an answer be found?
Where else could an observer be found?
If the thought "I can't find the observer" is ignored, (not believed) what happens?
Is the answer right "under your nose?"
Are you overlooking what you are seeing?
So the answer is that it's just the experience of seeing and feeling then. That is what is meant by "there is no separate self"?
Is what you are seeing an unsatisfying answer?
There seems to be some doubt popping up.
If so, what sort of answer would satisfy?
I'm not sure.
Let the following statement really sink in.

There is no separate self, never has been and never will be. That there is, is all just a made up story, a figment of the imagination.
What reactions - from none to subtle to strong - come up when you read that statement?

What's the first thought to pop into your head?
The mind attempts to confirm or deny it.
Do you feel any emotion(s) rising at all?

Any other reactions - subtle or strong?
There feels like a contraction in the chest. Perhaps resistance.

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Alless
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Re: Feeling stuck and looking for guidance

Postby Alless » Wed Feb 26, 2025 1:41 pm

Hello Chii
Is it the truth that no answer can come without thought?
Yes that's true.
In this investigation only answers that come without thought are true. All that is needed is clear seeing. Nothing else is required.
There seems to be some doubt popping up.
Well spotted.
What is doubt made of?



If doubt was ignored what would be experienced?



So the answer is that it's just the experience of seeing and feeling then. That is what is meant by "there is no separate self"?
The belief in a separate self brings with it the belief in separate "things".
In other words in the experience of seeing in the relative world there is the belief that there is an independent seer which sees independent objects.
And in feeling that there is a feeler and that which is felt
Let's prove whether this is true or not. Let's take seeing for a start.
Focus your eyes on an object where you are - a chair, a cushion for instance.
Now once focused on an "object" drop all labels and trace back in your awareness to where you believe you are seeing from
What is found?
Is there a dividing line or a boundary or a gap of any type that you can find in your experience between what is seen and what is believed to be the seer?



Is there an entity which is separate in experience to the seen and to experiencing itself that is doing the seeing?



Is there anything else you can say about this investigating of seeing?




.

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chii
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Re: Feeling stuck and looking for guidance

Postby chii » Thu Feb 27, 2025 7:05 am

What is doubt made of?
Thoughts
If doubt was ignored what would be experienced?
The experience of seeing, feeling
So the answer is that it's just the experience of seeing and feeling then. That is what is meant by "there is no separate self"?
The belief in a separate self brings with it the belief in separate "things".
In other words in the experience of seeing in the relative world there is the belief that there is an independent seer which sees independent objects.
And in feeling that there is a feeler and that which is felt
Let's prove whether this is true or not. Let's take seeing for a start.
Focus your eyes on an object where you are - a chair, a cushion for instance.
Now once focused on an "object" drop all labels and trace back in your awareness to where you believe you are seeing from
What is found?
The feeling of the head
Is there a dividing line or a boundary or a gap of any type that you can find in your experience between what is seen and what is believed to be the seer?
No, they are both appearing in awareness.
Is there an entity which is separate in experience to the seen and to experiencing itself that is doing the seeing?
I don't find an "entity", there is just the seeing and the feeling.
Is there anything else you can say about this investigating of seeing?
No, I would have to go to thoughts.

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Alless
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Re: Feeling stuck and looking for guidance

Postby Alless » Thu Feb 27, 2025 1:38 pm

If doubt was ignored what would be experienced?
The experience of seeing, feeling
I hear you Chii. And I would like to check....
While this is what you experience is there a lingering doubt that this entity we call "me" might just be obscured somewhere that you haven't quite found yet?



The feeling of the head
Does this include a sense that the seeing takes place in the head or are you saying it is just a feeling of a head that you notice?



No, they are both appearing in awareness.
You say that they are both appearing in awareness.Your response implies that there is a separate seer. Please look again right this moment. (Don't go from memory)
Can you describe this separate seer please?



You also say ....
I don't find an "entity", there is just the seeing and the feeling.
As you read this right now Chii how TRUE does this FEEL to you? Please write as much as you can about how you FEEL and any bodily reactions? Also is there some resistance or disbelief about this?



.

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chii
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Re: Feeling stuck and looking for guidance

Postby chii » Fri Feb 28, 2025 11:45 am

While this is what you experience is there a lingering doubt that this entity we call "me" might just be obscured somewhere that you haven't quite found yet?
Yes if the search continues, there must be a hidden belief that I am overlooking.
Does this include a sense that the seeing takes place in the head or are you saying it is just a feeling of a head that you notice?
When I trace back in my awareness to where I believe I am, it seems like attention moving from "over there" to the feeling of the head "here".
Can you describe this separate seer please?
I can't really describe a separate seer, I don't know what I'm looking for. It seems like movement of attention between senses.
As you read this right now Chii how TRUE does this FEEL to you? Please write as much as you can about how you FEEL and any bodily reactions? Also is there some resistance or disbelief about this?
Yes there feels like there is discomfort in the body, uncomfortable sensations in the chest. It doesn't feel TRUE, there seems to be some uncertainty as the mind continues to search for an "entity" even though it can't be found.

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Alless
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Re: Feeling stuck and looking for guidance

Postby Alless » Sat Mar 01, 2025 1:54 am

Hello Chii

I love the honesty in your responses. I sense a sincerity that is so essential in this investigation.
Yes if the search continues, there must be a hidden belief that I am overlooking.
These beliefs that you are overlooking - or in fact it is more that in experience you are looking through them - are often so subtle and deeply ingrained by conditioning. But rest assured that CLEAR SEEING of WHAT IS is all that is needed. You may never actually know specifically what belief is obscuring things at the moment however once WHAT IS is clearly seen the belief is "washed out"

I can't really describe a separate seer, I don't know what I'm looking for.
What if there is an unrelenting expectation that someTHING has to be found when in reality that someTHING does not exist? What comes up for you as you ponder that? Thoughts? Feelings?




Yes there feels like there is discomfort in the body, uncomfortable sensations in the chest. It doesn't feel TRUE, there seems to be some uncertainty as the mind continues to search for an "entity" even though it can't be found.
I'm reminded that as a child there used to be fear of the boogey man under the bed. No matter how reassuring others were there was only one thing that settled it. That was to get under the bed and look. And sometimes that did not quite fix it because the belief was so strong. And there also may have been a dark spot where the imagination would have him curled up and hidden there. Another look was often needed and with a torch just to make sure!


OK we will go back to the red green exercise Chii to look at something else.

Now we are going to take PURE SEEING a step further.


In the light of what has now been seen......... here is a sentence from the Label-Reality Correlation exercise again

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If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggest?

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As you LOOK at the sentence above and without any reference to thought, what is actually SEEN? What is your Actual Experience here?




Just this simple exercise for today.

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chii
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Re: Feeling stuck and looking for guidance

Postby chii » Sun Mar 02, 2025 11:23 am

What if there is an unrelenting expectation that someTHING has to be found when in reality that someTHING does not exist? What comes up for you as you ponder that? Thoughts? Feelings?
The initial thought that arises is that "That is possible, I see that I'm expecting to find something", followed by questioning thoughts "How can the nonexistence of this something be confirmed?" and sensations in the body. There doesn't seem to be a clear emotion or label to the sensations, just a vague "resistance" or "discomfort".
As you LOOK at the sentence above and without any reference to thought, what is actually SEEN? What is your Actual Experience here?
The redness of the text is not affected. The labels "GOOD" or "BAD" appear as a voice in the mind over the top of the experience of red text.

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Alless
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Re: Feeling stuck and looking for guidance

Postby Alless » Mon Mar 03, 2025 3:06 am

There doesn't seem to be a clear emotion or label to the sensations, just a vague "resistance" or "discomfort".
Beautiful noticing Chii.
Holding those vague feelings of resistance and discomfort lightly is so necessary. Along with the question " What is this?" can yield real treasure. Just because there is a vagueness about them doesn't mean they are not important. In fact because they are vague (perhaps we could say subtle?) they are all the more important
This resistance or discomfort is what holds so much of the conditioning in place. And again softly attending to it is another way of expressing the way to see this clearly. That's all that's needed - CLEAR SEEING, softly attending with alertness

So let's turn to the red green exercise again. You say.....
The redness of the text is not affected. The labels "GOOD" or "BAD" appear as a voice in the mind over the top of the experience of red text.
Here the thing. The mind dictates and EXCLUDES so much of what we are actually seeing. This such a subtle aspect of BELIEF that we are not typically aware of until it is pointed out.

Would a baby see what you've described or actually be experiencing something else?




For ease of reference here is the sentence again so we can investigate experiencing directly

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggest?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As you LOOK at the sentence above and without any reference to thought, what is actually SEEN?



So, looking at the sentence again what do you actually SEE?

What is directly seen here is red, black and white is it not? It can actually feel like a trick question because while it's such a simple exercise, it can powerfully demonstrate how quickly thoughts can sabotage and hypnotize

As a side note (and you may have experienced this already) if you show someone the page of any book and ask them what they see, invariably they will say something like words or letters. Rarely does anyone say "I see the white of the page." And yet the white is what takes up most of the page and we could not read the words without it!

And I'll ask you to look again because in fact what is really SEEN when we are looking at the sentence in this exercise, we also see green (lines delineating the sentence) and also blue (the color of the text in the question) even though we are not focusing on it per say, it is still SEEN.

Now hold your gaze on the sentence again and without moving your eyes or your head.
Are you not also aware of the oranges, greys, blacks of the LU website background behind the white text panel?




Now again without moving your eyes or head let your gaze soften even more and be aware of your peripheral vision.
Are you actually seeing more colours than you initially THOUGHT you were which are part of your computer screen or device and out into the room where you are?




Take a couple of minutes with a soft gaze to simply be open all that is seen in this moment.
How would you describe what you are experiencing if thought is not entertained?





As you let your gaze soften and your eyes de-focus even slightly, what happens to thoughts?





First of all, let’s remind ourselves what this exploration is all about. It's about finding out whether this notion of a “me” is actually true or not. For the purposes of this exploration we define this "me" as an independent entity that exists separate from the flow of life.

Now, rather then paying attention to what you are looking AT, turn your attention to the SEEING itself, to what you are looking FROM, as you LOOK. Can you find a specific place from which SEEING arises?




As you continue to look can you find a “me” that is in control of the SEEING?





Can you choose to stop SEEING?





While everything in the visual field is continually changing does the SEEING ITSELF change in any way?




Going back to the moment when you became conscious of the white background (and then the other colors) which was not noticed till it was pointed out, what changed to bring that realization about?




Was there any figuring out to be done or was it simply SEEING what was there?






So explore the SEEING that is happening with these questions in mind and tell me anything else about your DIRECT EXPERIENCE that you are noticing




We are not inducing anything here that is not already happening. All we are doing is taking a close LOOK at what is actually happening in the visual experience. And in doing so are starting to reveal and investigate some of the assumptions we have made about our visual experience.


Next time you go for a walk check in with what is happening with labeling and interpreting as you walk. Just look with curiosity as to what is happening as you pay close attention to visual experiencing. I’d love to hear. What happened?



No need to rush. If you feel you need extra time please just let me know.

And let yourself be curious with all this without trying to figure anything out !!!!

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Alless
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Re: Feeling stuck and looking for guidance

Postby Alless » Thu Mar 06, 2025 7:40 am

Hello Chii

Hope all is well

Do you still want to continue?

Alan

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chii
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Re: Feeling stuck and looking for guidance

Postby chii » Thu Mar 06, 2025 10:11 am

Hi Alan,

Yes, I'm very sorry. I've been busy the last two days and haven't had a chance to properly explore and respond.
Can I reply tomorrow?

Thanks

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Alless
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Re: Feeling stuck and looking for guidance

Postby Alless » Thu Mar 06, 2025 10:34 am

That's fine Chii. Life happens !!!

And if / when you are not able to answer on a particular day if you can just give me a heads up that you'll have to skip a day or so - that will be very helpful here.

Thanks so much


Alan

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chii
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Re: Feeling stuck and looking for guidance

Postby chii » Fri Mar 07, 2025 11:46 am

Hi Alan, sorry for the delayed response.
Would a baby see what you've described or actually be experiencing something else?
No, a baby would have no concept of 'text' or 'voice in the mind'
Are you not also aware of the oranges, greys, blacks of the LU website background behind the white text panel?
Are you actually seeing more colours than you initially THOUGHT you were which are part of your computer screen or device and out into the room where you are?
Yes its a wider range of colours than was initially thought.
How would you describe what you are experiencing if thought is not entertained?
A wide oval shaped field of imagery.
As you let your gaze soften and your eyes de-focus even slightly, what happens to thoughts?
Thoughts seem to subside and appear less frequently.
Can you find a specific place from which SEEING arises?
The contents of SEEING can change but the SEEING doesn't seem localised.
As you continue to look can you find a “me” that is in control of the SEEING?
No "me" can be found to be in control of SEEING. It just seems to be happening.
Can you choose to stop SEEING?
No, if I close my eyes, there is still SEEING of the patterns happening in the visual field.
While everything in the visual field is continually changing does the SEEING ITSELF change in any way?
The changing contents don't seem to change SEEING however it can seem to be somewhat obscured or narrowed by thoughts.
Going back to the moment when you became conscious of the white background (and then the other colors) which was not noticed till it was pointed out, what changed to bring that realization about?
It seems direct seeing was obscured by a filter of thought.
Was there any figuring out to be done or was it simply SEEING what was there?
There was no figuring out to be done, just dropping the labelling and thoughts.
So explore the SEEING that is happening with these questions in mind and tell me anything else about your DIRECT EXPERIENCE that you are noticing
If I'm sitting in a quiet room with no distractions, labelling and interpreting can be dropped and the experience of SEEING seems to become wide and still. The other sense seem to become somewhat more present.
I'm finding it a bit more difficult when out walking as the mind has a stronger tendency to label. There are also doubting thoughts about whether I'm doing it correctly.

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Alless
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Re: Feeling stuck and looking for guidance

Postby Alless » Fri Mar 07, 2025 10:42 pm

Hi Alan, sorry for the delayed response.
Just let me know when you know you'll be late Chii. As we said - life happens. Keep in mind that experience shows that keeping momentum up seems to be important in this type of investigation and we want to give you the best chance to use the opportunity well.
A wide oval shaped field of imagery.
Very subtle mind overlay here. Do you see that as you reread it?



If the mind overlay can be seen when pointed out, what words here tell you the mind is overlaying pure seeing?




How would you describe this "field" of seeing in the most basic terms with the most minimal mind overlay?




I'm finding it a bit more difficult when out walking as the mind has a stronger tendency to label.
The intent at this point is not to try and stop labeling rather simply to notice labeling is happening.
There are also doubting thoughts about whether I'm doing it correctly.
The interesting thing here is you cannot not do it correctly. The only issue is you're believing a thought.

If you don't entertain that doubt is there any incorrectness in the seeing itself?



You say seeing just seems to be happening and its not controlled by a "me". How then could you not be doing it right?



Are you doing the seeing at all?




And do you experience any difference between
- seeing?
- looking?
- noticing?

What can you say about these 3 aspects of experiencing?




The other sense seem to become somewhat more present.
What is this other sense?




.


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