Identified with an I

[ty0]

It is seeming to be true that I don't have a choice about emotions arising! A pattern has been noticed lately - when anxiety arises it feels like it's covering a deeper emotion wanting to be felt. Anxiety is felt in the body as like some initial alarm that is "trying" to keep hidden something else and keep the focus on itself instead of going deeper. I have been finding that if I look deeper and sit with the anxiety, it opens to some other emotion and if that is then felt more closely then the anxiety dissipates.

Nice discovery. Maybe that's an insight, whatever that means hahahha

But then what is intuition? Is that a thought?

I have no idea

Well to "verify" seeing takes believing a thought I suppose. It is a description of what is happening. I'm not understanding the second question about DE apart from the image. Yes, I see that "feeling" is not a DE it's probably really a thought huh? DE is only the sensation. Maybe you're meaning "seeing" or verbs imply someone "doing" it as opposed to a doorknob is seen, or appears? Gosh, our language is really tied to reinforce subject, object and the "I". I probably haven't truly had a DE of anything in reality since I was a baby.

Yeah, language doesn't really work here. By itself, what is there?.... doorknob (when I say doorknob, I mean what the label doorknob refers to). But is there seeing of the doorknob? Is the doorknob being seen? Does the doorknob appear? IS the doorknob??

Could I practice this same thing by gazing at a tree outside my window? It's too cold outside for me to spend any substantial amount of time out there looking at the sky without movement of my body:)

Sure, a tree is fine. A lot of people have found staring at their face in the mirror interesting.

[WhoIBee]

By itself, what is there?.... doorknob (when I say doorknob, I mean what the label doorknob refers to). But is there seeing of the doorknob? Is the doorknob being seen? Does the doorknob appear? IS the doorknob??

Hmm, I'm still unclear. Maybe it just appears? I can't actually verify with DE experience that it exists prior to seeing it (even if I have seen it a million times before). I don't think it appears out of nothing but that is just a thought founded in logic.

Questions arose this morning - Why do we even have thoughts? Are they designed just to be used for creating or problem-solving on a very practical level that only involves DE issues? (such as, someone had the thought that if a person is unable to see well, they worked on how to improve that function by creating glasses) Other animals don’t seem to “think” so why have we been designed to? The other DE functions seem to be to help navigate the body in this physical form but why do humans have thoughts but the other animals don't? Some content of thought seems to be useful and accurate. Anyway, my mind is likely trying to validate itself - haha.

Sure, a tree is fine. A lot of people have found staring at their face in the mirror interesting.

I've really noticed how challenging this exercise actually is. The attention on just the tree seems to last about 10 seconds before thoughts just come and distract me. It feels easier to close my eyes and imagine the tree - haha, probably because the image is then a thought content and NOT the actual tree being seen. I was able to do it the first few days a little easier I think because I would use the word "rest" to bring my focus back but I'm realizing it really was based in the intention of using the time to rest instead of engaging in a challenging practice. I guess just looking at a tree feels like a practice. That causes sadness because I would like to really "SEE" the tree for what it is and if I did I doubt it would be challenging to sit with it for hours. Thoughts, thoughts, more analyzing thoughts!

[WhoIBee]

Hi Tyler,

I did message yesterday but I wanted to add more today. I am participating in a 5 day online silent retreat that started this morning. My intention for the retreat is to use the time to - a) not engage in social media, b) only check my email twice/day but otherwise pretty much stay off the internet, and c) use the meditation times to just sit and see if my mind can have some rest time. I'll be trying the tree meditation during the daylight meditation times. I am open to any other suggestions you might have for this intentional time as well.

Thank you:)

[ty0]

Questions arose this morning - Why do we even have thoughts? Are they designed just to be used for creating or problem-solving on a very practical level that only involves DE issues? (such as, someone had the thought that if a person is unable to see well, they worked on how to improve that function by creating glasses) Other animals don’t seem to “think” so why have we been designed to? The other DE functions seem to be to help navigate the body in this physical form but why do humans have thoughts but the other animals don't? Some content of thought seems to be useful and accurate. Anyway, my mind is likely trying to validate itself - haha.

Other animals certainly have thoughts the way we do, just less complex. More intelligent animals like some primates have verrry complex thoughts. Anyway, that's not really relevant. The point isn't that thought is not useful or accurate. The point is that "useful" and "accurate" are just more thoughts to label thoughts. Even "is" or "is not" are just thoughts

I did message yesterday but I wanted to add more today. I am participating in a 5 day online silent retreat that started this morning. My intention for the retreat is to use the time to - a) not engage in social media, b) only check my email twice/day but otherwise pretty much stay off the internet, and c) use the meditation times to just sit and see if my mind can have some rest time. I'll be trying the tree meditation during the daylight meditation times. I am open to any other suggestions you might have for this intentional time as well.

Please don't treat this time as an effortful time

[WhoIBee]

Please don't treat this time as an effortful time

It hasn't felt like effortful time. My experience so far has been mostly relaxing with thoughts that come but not sticking much. If something does seem to "stick" a little more I will just go into the body to see if any sensation arises and then just being with that sensation. I am not using any effort to "wake up" but may use a question such as "What am I without this thought?" but it hasn't felt effortful to just let this question sit.

I had a trauma session with a "non-dual therapist" on Friday and found that helpful in being with emotions that arise from a thought. I continue to find that although I think I am much more compassionate with myself than I had been in the past I still seem to get frustrated and try to get the uncomfortable thoughts that lead to sensations to just go away. I've been using the retreat time to also be much more gentle and inviting to whatever arises. I don't know if this helps at all with still "validating" a separate self but while it does seem to still be the thought, I am doing my best to let go into what is.

[ty0]

I don't know if this helps at all with still "validating" a separate self but while it does seem to still be the thought, I am doing my best to let go into what is.

Oh don't worry about all that. That's like someone saying they don't eat healthy because that would be validating a self with a body to take care of. We simply do what makes experience more pleasant, if that motivation didn't exist, we would all sit until we die. If adopting a welcoming attitude makes it less likely for you to run away from sensations (it does), go ahead. Surrender and invite it all in. If thoughts take over and you find yourself resisting them and the sensations they cause, can you be inviting towards the resistance?

[WhoIBee]

If thoughts take over and you find yourself resisting them and the sensations they cause, can you be inviting towards the resistance?

Yes. I think I am trying to be with all of it - even the resistance. So far it seems that if a thought comes that I don't like it's because it creates an uncomfortable sensation. But, if I don't "validate" and follow the thought but recognize it caused a sensation to arise then I haven't felt any need to resist the sensation. I will go into it and invite it to be it's full capacity. After a time usually crying or sound releases and then things settle.

I have been dealing with a current health issue that has come up which is really helping me to see how much fear is there with knowing that I have no control. This is really challenging to not focus on terrifying thoughts.

[ty0]

This is really challenging to not focus on terrifying thoughts.

If they come and you can't help but focus on them, don't resist that. It's like you're thinking that following the thoughts is resisting the sensations so you try to resist the thoughts and focus on the sensations, but that's just the same thing in the other direction. When you have the time, explore those thoughts, let them propagate, see how it makes you feel, and see to what extent it can make you feel bad

[WhoIBee]

If they come and you can't help but focus on them, don't resist that. It's like you're thinking that following the thoughts is resisting the sensations so you try to resist the thoughts and focus on the sensations, but that's just the same thing in the other direction. When you have the time, explore those thoughts, let them propagate, see how it makes you feel, and see to what extent it can make you feel bad

It seems like a spiral if I focus on the thought. It often just leads to thought after thought either in catastrophizing or trying to change to a positive thought. It doesn't feel like I "resist" the thought, I just don't focus on the content of what it's saying to where I either believe it's true or I try to change it to something more pleasant. The thought feels a pointer that if it provokes a quick physical contraction when it arises I go to investigate what is happening in the body from what the content of the thought said. I think when you say explore the thoughts I think that is what I am doing no? But just not focusing in the mind space to explore them but seeing how they make me feel. I'm not pushing away the thoughts I just move my attention to the sensation that seems to have been poked. Maybe I'm misunderstanding?

[ty0]

Ah ok I think I misunderstood when you said you were trying not to focus on terrifying thoughts.